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Nikki Haley Breaks with Trump, Says, We Shouldn't Have Followed Him; Source Says, Doctors Considered Putting Trump on Ventilator During COVID Battle; Impeachment Managers Say, Trump Could Incite More Violence If Not Convicted. Aired 7-7:30a ET

Aired February 12, 2021 - 07:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[07:00:00]

JOHN BERMAN, CNN NEW DAY: All right. Welcome to our viewers in the United States and all around the world. This is New Day.

And we have breaking news, breaking political news. A major Republican figure, someone who we think very much wants to be in the mix as a possible presidential candidate in 2024, has just broken with Donald Trump in a major way. This is significant. We will tell you who it is and what she says.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN NEW DAY: I might be able to read it on the bottom of the screen.

BERMAN: See, okay. My goal there was to see it.

CAMEROTA: I saw that.

BERMAN: We're going to tell you Nikki Haley just said in just a few minutes, because it is fascinating and tells you the potential impact of the impeachment trial that has been going on for the last few days, the impact beyond the Senate.

So, the former president's defense team is set to make its case just a few hours from now. We do have new information about their strategy. We're told they will use only a fraction of the 16 hours they have been granted. Why so short? Why so little to say when the former president is charged with inciting the insurrection at the U.S. Capitol that led to five deaths? As one of our analysts notes, they have bad facts, but a good jury. How good? Three Republican senators, Ted Cruz among them, huddled with the former president's attorneys to craft strategy. When you are fixing a fight, everyone does have to be on the same page.

CAMEROTA: So, House impeachment managers wrapping up their case by warning of the possibility of future violence if Donald Trump is not convicted and barred from ever holding office again. The prosecutors argue that the deadly Capitol insurrection would not have happened had the mob not been invited and incited by Trump.

Despite the prosecutors' compelling video evidence, like you're seeing on your screen, most Republican senators appear ready to acquit Mr. Trump. At one point, our producer observed at least 15 empty seats on the GOP side of the chamber during the trial.

BERMAN: All right. Joining us now, CNN Political Analyst Maggie Haberman, Washington Correspondent for The New York Times. Also with us, CNN Legal Analyst Ross Garber, he is a defense attorney who teaches impeachment law at Tulane Law School.

We're going to get to Nikki Haley in a moment because there are some juicy quotes to go over here. And, again, I think this tells us the impact of the trial beyond the Senate chamber.

But, first, Ross, counselor, impeachment lawyer, I do want to start with you what we are going to see today. One of the former president's lawyers, what do you expect them to do? What do they need to do now that the House managers have so effectively laid out their case?

ROSS GARBER, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes. So, the House managers did an amazing job, but the reality is that the numbers just aren't there for conviction in the Senate. And I was told when I started practicing law once, when you're winning, sit down. And I think that's what we're going to see from the president -- former president's lawyers today.

I bet they're going to be very, very quick. Remember, they're allotted up to two days, up to eight hours each day. We're hearing, maybe they'll take three hours today. And, strategically, that makes sense. And, remember, they did not have an auspicious start. So I think what we're going to see is a very quick presentation.

I think they're going to focus on jurisdiction. I think they're going to focus on the First Amendment issue. And I don't think we're going to hear very much about the facts.

CAMEROTA: Speaking of the inauspicious start, Maggie, has President Trump banned Bruce Castor from presenting again after that start?

MAGGIE HABERMAN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: He has not banned them, but he has told people he doesn't want to see Castor doing presentations if this drags into tomorrow, which almost everybody expects it will. Because, remember, there's a Q&A portion after Trump's defense team talks. Castor will have to present, because David Schoen, the president's other lead lawyer, observes the Jewish Sabbath and has made clear that he will not be a part of that.

So the president might not want it, unlike previous iterations of Donald Trump's legal team, and, remember, there have been many over time. He's not in the position where he's going to fire anyone, because they know this trial is lasting a week. So they're going to solder (ph) through it, it will make him very happy.

One addition to what Ross said about what we expect them so to say today, in addition to the two things he said, the jurisdiction and protected free speech, I think you're also going to hear them say of the presentation yesterday, it didn't tie it directly to Donald Trump. You have no proof of his motive or intent. Now, obviously, that could be dealt with if they called witnesses, which neither side seems interested in doing right now, but I think that's going to be the third leg of what they say. BERMAN: We can come back to the legal aspects of this or the argument cases in a second. But I think the Nikki Haley thing, it's growing on me as potential a major story this morning. Tim Alberta, in I think his last piece in Politico before he to The Atlantic, interviewed Nikki Haley, former governor of South Carolina, former Ambassador to the United Nations in the Trump administration, and she said some remarkable things in what really is a clear break from Donald Trump for her.

[07:05:07]

Let me just read some of the quotes here from Nikki Haley. He's not going to run for federal office again. I don't think he's going to be in the picture, she said, matter-of-factly. I don't think he can. He's fallen too far. And this is the kicker. We need to acknowledge he let us down. He went down a path he shouldn't have. And we shouldn't have followed him. And we shouldn't have listened to him. We can let that ever happen again.

Now, I do not think this is interesting as a profiles in courage moment, Ross Garber, I do think it's interesting in a Nikki Haley, if anything, is a weather vane. I mean, she twists with the political winds to a certain extent here, and she sees the political wind blowing against the former president of the United States. So there may be a verdict in the U.S. Senate, but Nikki Haley is giving something of a different verdict here, and that may be what the House managers, that might be what people looking to make a historical record here having going for all along.

GARBER: Yes. And in a regular trial, the verdict is the thing. You know, here, I think the story is probably not going to be in the yeas and nays. I do think we're going to see a lot of discussion from the senator who is vote for acquittal, who vote not guilty, about the jurisdictional issue. But I think the story is not going to be in yeas and nays, it's going to be in the repercussions of this. You know, Nikki Haley is very interesting.

I think where Senator Cassidy from Louisiana has kind of wound up in all of this is fascinating to watch. He's not a rhino. He's a real Republican from a very red state. And, you know, he voted in favor of jurisdiction in the Senate, and yesterday, he had some very interesting comments and very pointed questions for the Trump defense lawyers. So I think it is going to be very interesting to see the impact of what's come out in this trial on the Republican base.

CAMEROTA: But, Maggie, isn't this interesting? Why does she see the political expediency of whatever the outcome is here so differently than the senators inside the chamber, such as Ted Cruz, Josh Hawley, why is she reading the political winds so differently?

HABERMAN: Well, I assume it's because in her perspective run for president, which we all know she is looking at and likely to do, she is not going to occupy the sort of imitation version of Trump lane she never was going to, which a Josh Hawley or a Tom Cotton or to a lesser extent or a Ted Cruz would. She's just in a different area politically. So I'm not surprised. It is very strong language, John, and it's certainly notable, given that she served in the administration. I think it is worth noting that she served in the administration after condemning Trump's language in 2016 during the campaign, tying his language during that campaign five years ago, almost, to the shooting in Charleston, South Carolina, at a black church.

So I don't think that Nikki Haley is unfamiliar with what Donald Trump's language can do. I don't think she's unfamiliar with the fact that he uses this language. But I do think, to your point, the videos that were shown over and over in this trial by the House managers, I think, has been very, very compelling and has been markedly different from what we saw at the last impeachment trial.

BERMAN: Yes. I don't know if she would had done this last week had this week not happened, maybe. And to your point though, that's I guess my point on Nikki Haley. I mean, Nikki Haley felt that way about Donald Trump before, and then she didn't or at least she suppressed it, and now she feels that way again publicly. That's what I mean by you sort of see which way the political winds are blowing there.

Ross Garber --

HABERMAN: And he doesn't have his grip anymore on the party. He doesn't have his grip anymore on the party the way he did. I think that's absolutely what she says tells us.

BERMAN: That's a big deal. I mean, again, I think that's a big deal and maybe a difference from a week ago, no?

GARBER: Yes. Well, I mean, you've got to figure out what's going to happen with his base. He may not have the grip, but his voting base is still very strong. And so what you're seeing is jockeying for, you know, who is going to try to pick up that base and how in sync you have to be with Trump to pick up that base.

CAMEROTA: Maggie, do you think it's a difference from a week ago, pre-trial?

HABERMAN: I think it is certainly -- I think John is correct, that it is easier for her to do this now after seeing all of those videos. I do think that there are members of the Republican Party and even the president's own base who are not the hardest core members, to be sure, but people who are going to be more forgiving of her condemning him. I just don't know how durable it is.

And I think the numbers have been very big on viewership of this trial from people watching at home. I think that's important. I just think, as we saw after January 6th, there is a snapback in terms of how long people's memories are on holding Donald Trump to account. So we'll see. But I do think John is right, this is a significant step.

BERMAN: I also think she may not have got to choose the publish date of this, but the fact that it came out hours before we're hearing from the president's defense team, it's also notable and also very interesting. [07:10:12]

So, Ross, as we look forward to today, one of the third rails has been, will these lawyers in, any way, touch the big lie, touch the idea that the former president was and is, and Maggie has reported on this extensively, obsessed with the fact that he is still insistent that there was election fraud that didn't exist. What pressure do you think there is on them to say something to allude to it in any way and how dangerous would that be?

GARBER: Yes. I think they're being advised by lots of people to stay away from it. But, you know, I talked a minute ago about Senator Cassidy. When he gave an interview last night, this is the Louisiana Republican senator, you know, he mentioned a couple of things that he wanted the Trump lawyers to address.

And, interestingly, one of them actually was this issue. He wants the lawyers to address why it was that the president was out there saying that the voting machines were rigged. I thought it was an interesting question coming from this Louisiana Republican.

CAMEROTA: Ross Garber, thank you very much for all of that. Maggie, stick around, because we have some more questions for you, because Maggie has new reporting on just how sick former President Trump was with coronavirus. Doctors considered putting him on a ventilator. She's going to tell us what she's learned, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:15:00]

CAMEROTA: CNN has learned that President Trump was much sicker than previously known when he came down with coronavirus last fall. Maggie Haberman broke this story in The New York Times and she is back with us now.

So, Maggie, what's your reporting? How sick was he?

HABERMAN: Alisyn, he was quite sick. He was much sicker than they let us know. And to be clear, we reported at the time, he was sicker than they were letting on. But what we've learned is that he had what are called infiltrates on his lungs. That's what the scans show, that are associated with a syndrome called COVID pneumonia.

And there had been discussions about whether he would need to be put on a ventilator. That speaks to the seriousness of the illness that he was dealing with. It explains part of why there was such concern on October 2nd, that Friday, when he was at the end of the workday taken by helicopter to Walter Reed.

You know, we know there was reporting at the time from us and others, that there was greater concern among his staff about how he was doing. But learning the specifics about exactly what he was facing, I think, is alarming, as to the gravity of the situation.

And it does underscore how opposite a picture the White House doctor, Sean Conley, was painting, about how President Trump was doing that weekend. Remember, he briefed repeatedly that the president was on the upswing, that he was doing much better.

We also learned that his oxygen levels dipped well into dangerous levels. That was also not something that they were discussing at the time.

So, look, there's still a lot that we don't know but I think it's important to try to fill out the picture historically of what was happening when this president was facing this novel virus.

BERMAN: We have some sound from Dr. Conley right now back when he was being dishonest with the American people. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REPORTER: Has he ever been on supplemental oxygen?

DR. SEAN CONLEY, WHITE HOUSE DOCTOR: He -- right now, he is not on --

REPORTER: I understand. I know you keep saying, right now, but should we read into the fact that he had been previously?

CONLEY: Yesterday and today, he has not been on oxygen?

REPORTER: So he has not been on it during his COVID treatment?

CONLEY: He is not on oxygen right now?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: In fact, when he said that yesterday, he had on oxygen, let's just be clear, Dr. Conley wasn't honest at all. And then there was the admission part of it. And it's notable. I do think it's important, Maggie, when people lie to the American people like that. It's terrific that

the president got better, that whatever he ended up taking helped him get better and ultimately he was able to get back on the campaign trail. But the American people deserve more than that.

HABERMAN: Well, so I've had discussions with a lot of doctors about this since that moment. And the answer I keep getting back from people is that Dr. Conley's obligation was to his patient, not to the public, unlike, say, a Mark Meadows, or unlike all of the other officials who were trying to talk on background, but not say anything on the record because President Trump didn't want him to.

I think that Dr. Conley portrayed such a damagingly false portrait of such an optimistic moment with President Trump when he was having this rapid recovery, which is what Donald Trump wanted him to say, that I think it was very damaging.

And, again, it came -- this was not in isolation in a vacuum. This was after months of President Trump downplaying the coronavirus for other people who didn't have access to the kind of treatment that he was able to get. CAMEROTA: It was also just so obvious that Dr. Conley was engaged in double speak. I mean, it was just so obvious. Everybody could see that he wasn't answering the question there. So if you're going to hold a press conference, at least do us the luxury of telling the truth or saying, I can't tell you that, because of patient/doctor confidentiality, or something like that.

And, Maggie, one more thing, CNN has reporting that the first lady, Melania, was also sicker than we knew. I remember her having to cancel an appearance of some kind at an event and being told that she had a persistent cough, but it was worse than that.

HABERMAN: It was worse than that. We understand the same thing. She was not, to be clear, as sick as her husband was, by any stretch of the imagination, and she turned down the Regeneron treatment that he ended up getting, the antibody cocktail, but she had more than just a persistent cough. She had extreme fatigue and a headache. So, yes, I mean, this is -- it is unsurprising. She is also just like her husband, where she doesn't want people knowing anything about her. And so they have perpetuated falsehoods about their health.

BERMAN: Can I ask one more question that's sort of tangentially connected to this?

[07:20:01]

Which is that, as there is this continued effort to get more Americans vaccinated, and as the former president so likes to take credit for the Operation Warp Speed and the development of the vaccines, I still find it notable that he has done so little as an outgoing president and even as a former president to tell people to go get vaccinated. Am I wrong? Is this not a glaring absence?

HABERMAN: No. I mean, look, John, I think that the entirety of the final 10, 11 weeks of his term were spent all about himself and his anger that he didn't win re-election and his effort to try to damage and undermine his successor, President Biden.

Look, Donald Trump left the election on November 3rd, even with everything self-destructive he had done leading up to the election, to Election Day proper, with everything he had done, he still won more votes than he did in 2016. He could have gone out of this with, you know, a real sense of significance, of something that he could point to as a data point about remaining the leader of the party.

And he had the ability to focus on the vaccine, to focus on distribution, to focus on public information about the vaccine, to do PSAs, to tell people to get this vaccine that he had been talking about for months ahead of the election as the most important thing. He totally lost interest once he lost the election.

And that is really unfortunate for the American people who need to hear, especially a big segment from him directly, that the vaccine is safe and worth taking.

BERMAN: Maggie Haberman, terrific reporting. Thanks for being with us. I really appreciate it.

HABERMAN: Thank you.

BERMAN: House impeachment managers warn that extremist groups are emboldened by the insurrection at the Capitol. We're going to speak to a member of Congress who served in the CIA. We're going to talk to her about this growing threat, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:25:00]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. TED LIEU (D-CA): I'm not afraid of Donald Trump running again in four years. I'm afraid he's going to run again and lose, because he can do this again.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: House impeachment managers warning what could happen if senators do not convict Donald Trump. The former president's legal team will make their defense in just hours.

Joining us now to talk about this and more is Democratic Congresswoman Abigail Spanberger. She is a former CIA officer. Congresswoman, thanks so much for being here.

And I do want you to put on your CIA hat for these questions. About violence, domestic violence, domestic terror, do you fear that if Donald Trump is acquitted, that there will be more domestic violence or do you think that his grip on those kinds of domestic terrorists is lessening?

REP. ABIGAIL SPANBERGER (D-VA): So, I think that the challenge we're facing as a nation is we have permitted and Donald Trump and his embrace of conspiracy theories and his willingness to lie to the American people have been a significant part of permitting conspiracy theories to pollute the ground on which we stand. And in that process, we have seen the growth of domestic violent extremist groups, the organization around specific objectives, right?

So there have long been white nationalist organizations, there have long been those who have a bit of an anti-government bent in this country, but now they have something to unify around, and that's the conspiracy theory that Donald Trump pushed that there was this stolen election, that he was done wrong, and that they have to defend him and democracy. And so he's given a rallying cry.

So, you know, separate from and apart from the results of this trial, he has unleashed that in this country, and that is what we will have to contend with. Because this time, it was this lie. Now, there might be something new that continues to motivate or animate them into the future.

CAMEROTA: But I guess my point is, do you think that an acquittal or a conviction matters? Is this already unleashed?

SPANBERGER: It is already unleashed, absolutely. It was already unleashed. And part of the larger component here, it's not just those who did the violence. It's those who were justified. It's the fact that you have sitting senators who would say or would defend that when the most powerful man in the world incites people to insurrection, that it's somehow not the power of his platform and his voice that pushed them along. It's the people who believe in these conspiracies, though they may not themselves be violent. It is all of those pieces.

And, frankly, it's what we've seen across, you know, in other parts of the world with violent extremist groups that, for us, have long been foreign in nature and someplace else. It's all of those components that have wreaked havoc around the world. And that's the danger we're facing now.

CAMEROTA: You know, since January 6th, we know a lot more about some of these violent fringe terror groups, like the Oath Keepers. Some of their ring leaders who were there have been arrested. And it turns out that they were planning something much more deadly and destructive than we even knew, than they got away with. And one of the members said he was awaiting direction from Trump about how to handle the election results.

Another one who's got a lot of attention, Jessica Marie Watkins, said, I don't underestimate the resolve of the deep state. Biden may still be our president. If he is, our way of life, as we know it, is over. Our republic is over. Then it is our duty as Americans to fight, kill, and die for our rights. That's what she said before the insurrection, and then they attempted to carry that out.

Now, what we will hear today, as we are told from the Trump defense, is that, you know what, both sides of the aisle, politicians often use heated rhetoric, you know, they will use this, we believe, sound bite from Chuck Schumer to say, you know, it's all even. So listen to this from Senator Schumer.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY): I want to tell you, Gorsuch, I want to tell you, Kavanaugh, you have released the whirlwind and you will pay the price.

[07:30:06]