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Suspect in Boulder, Colorado, Shooting to have Trial Date; New Evidence Emerges of Communication between Oath Keepers and Proud Boys Coordinating Capitol Insurrection; VP Kamala Harris Calls for Gun Reform After Colorado Massacre; Sen. Richard Blumenthal (D-CT) is Interviewed About Gun Reform. Aired 8-8:30a ET

Aired March 24, 2021 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:00]

KAMALA HARRIS, (D) U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: It is time for Congress to act and stop with the false choices. This is not about getting rid of the Second Amendment. It's simply about saying we need reasonable gun safety laws. There's no reason why we have assault weapons on the streets of a civil society. They are weapons of war. They are designed to kill a lot of people quickly.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: The suspect will appear in court for the first time tomorrow. CNN's Dan Simon live in Boulder with the latest on where things stand this morning, Dan.

DAN SIMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, hey, John. We know that the suspect had two semi-automatic weapons with him when he went to the grocery store, according to court documents, also had a tactical vest. One of those weapons he allegedly purchased six days before the attacks. Now we're also learning more information about his background, and this comes from his brother. According to his brother, he suffered some kind of mental illness. He thought people were following him. He was very paranoid. He had taken some duct tape a put it on the camera on his computer because he thought people were watching him. The suspect also thought that people were hacking into his phone. And so when you take all of that, we you combine that with the fact that he had easy access to weapons, you have the recipe for a disaster.

In the meantime, we're also hearing more from the friends and family of victims. I want you to listen now to the friend of Suzanne Fountain who was an actress and a financial adviser. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HELEN FORSTER, FRIEND OF BOULDER SHOOTING VICTIM SUZANNE FOUNTAIN: She was a bright light. She was one of those people that I think a lot of people who met her felt they already knew her. We're still a little bit in shock, and we're stunned. And I think we just have to take one day at a time and remember what she did for all of us. And you hold someone in your hearts, whether they are on the planet or not. So I think that that's what a lot of us will do moving forward.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SIMON: And we'll be continuing to hear a lot more about the victims in the coming days. In the meantime, the suspect will have his first court appearance tomorrow morning. John and Alisyn, back to you.

BERMAN: Dan Simon, thank you very much for that.

Joining me is the Colorado attorney general, Phil Weiser. Thank you so much for being with us. I know you, along with your entire state, the entire nation, is in mourning today. What can you tell us about where the investigation stands right now?

PHIL WEISER, (D) COLORADO ATTORNEY GENERAL: This is going to be a thorough investigation. This is a large crime scene, and there's a lot of background information that's still being gathered. Obviously, as you reported, there will be the initial hearing. Obviously, this is not a case where someone is going to be out on bail. This is a pretty easy, and I don't think will take too long.

We're going to learn more in the days, weeks, and months ahead because, as we saw in the Aurora investigation, which was a similar mass shooting, we have a lot of work to do. And a lot of authorities are going to be working together. This is going to take time, and we're going to see justice prevail. The Boulder district attorney Michael Dougherty is a real expert, professional. He is going to do a first-rate job here. He's got a team working with him, and our office and others are going to be cooperating with him.

BERMAN: A senior law enforcement source tells CNN the suspect used a Ruger AR-556 pistol modified with an arm brace which he purchased six days before the shooting. We're also told he was carrying Also a 9 millimeter handgun. What more can you tell us about the weapons purchased and where and how they were purchased?

WEISER: This information is also something we're going to learn more about and figure out. Part of the goal is when you have a tragedy like this is to learn what enabled this tragedy? What could we do differently? We've unfortunately been through this in Colorado now multiple times going back to the Columbine mass shooting, where there was word earlier that those planning it were talking about it, and no one knew where to go. We established a safe-to-tell program out of that. The Aurora movie theater shooting gave us insight that we needed a high magazine capacity ban so that we would limit to 15 round that would, again, enable lives to be saved. And we do have a background check law here. We also adopted a red flag law here in Colorado just recently again so that if we learn about dangerous individuals who could harm other or themselves, we can do something about it.

BERMAN: Boulder, of course, had an assault weapons ban, it was put in place in 2018, but it was just blocked by a court 10 days ago. Was this weapon purchased in Boulder?

WEISER: We are still, again, getting all the details out on this. The individual lived in Arvada, which is a different community not too far from Boulder. And so I think it's fair to say a local ordinance like in Boulder for someone who wanted to get it is not going to be a sufficient barrier to them getting access to such a weapon.

BERMAN: Understood. How close are you to determining a motive?

[08:05]

WEISER: This is going to take some time. And this is, obviously, going to be a key part of the investigation. It is a mystery. And for those of us trying to make sense of how could this have happened, why would this have happened, this is a big question. But it's not something that's going to necessarily happen quickly, and the team will be keep working on this.

BERMAN: We're learning new details about the suspect, including that he pleaded guilty to third-degree assault charges three years ago after attacking a high school classmate. The suspect's brother told CNN he was suffering from mental illness, including extreme paranoia. How does this impact the investigation?

WEISER: The question that's going to, obviously, be something that the suspect and his counsel is going to have to determine is whether they're going to ask for a plea by virtue of insanity, a defense that was tried in the Aurora movie theater shooting case. It was not success there. Obviously, it's going to play out over time. The defense has to basically say that someone didn't understand the impact of what they were doing. And in this case, given the number of different killings, it does appear that someone was acting deliberately. We don't know what was in his mind, and that's going to be something that's going to get talked about, analyzed, and it will have to be evaluated by the court.

BERMAN: So you tweeted on the need for action, new gun laws to prevent gun violence at the federal level. Here's just some of the pushback that this discussion faces in the U.S. Senate.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. TED CRUZ, (R-TX): Every time there's a shooting, we play this ridiculous theater where this committee gets together and proposes a bunch of laws that would do nothing to stop these murders.

SEN. JOHN KENNEDY, (R-LA): I'm not trying to perfectly equate these two, but we have a lot of drunk drivers in America that kill a lot of people. I think what many folks on my side of the aisle are saying is that the answer is not to get rid of all sober drivers.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: So what's your response to this?

WEISER: Well, what's ridiculous is we have mass shooting after mass shooting, and Congress has failed to act. That's what's ridiculous here. We know that common sense measures like a comprehensive background check, like a red flag law that I mentioned, saves lives. This is a basic proposition. If someone is a dangerous person, they don't have a Second Amendment right to have a weapon. Justice Scalia made that clear in a leading case called Heller. And the idea that Senator Cruz or others are going to stand in the way of commonsense gun measures that overwhelming majorities of Americans support, it's wrong. And that's what's going to take a voice of the American people to be heard. When the American people's voices are heard, like it was in the Affordable Care Act, that can pressure Congress how to act.

This is a moment of truth for Congress. We need federal leadership on this issue. A comprehensive background check, the red flag law we adopted here in Colorado, it's a model of what we should have nationally.

BERMAN: So this country is emerging from once in a century global pandemic which has had a huge impact on mental health. What do you anticipate in terms of maybe potential rise in gun violence in relation to that?

WEISER: We have a lot of work to do around mental health and the intersection of gun violence. There is an effort we're working on here in Colorado, raising awareness and addressing safe gun storage. A lot of the people who die from gun violence, it's dying by suicide. And storing guns safely and securely needs to be a part of responsible gun ownership.

Also, we don't have enough conversations around mental health. There's still a real stigma. And if we can help each other, help people who are suffering, we will also save lives. So there is a need to take this moment of tragedy and turn it into purpose. We've been through this in Colorado. We need to learn from this moment. We all need to be our best authentic selves, supporting other people and helping address mental health, which, as you note, we are seeing a mental health crisis in the midst of this pandemic.

BERMAN: Colorado Attorney General Phil Weiser, we appreciate you being with us. Thank you so much for your time.

WEISER: Thank you.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: OK, John, we're getting some breaking news. This is just in to CNN. Federal prosecutors have just released these communications that we have in our hands here between the Oath Keepers and the Proud Boys that show them coordinating. It showed their leaders working together before the U.S. Capitol insurrection on January 6th. This is the first time we're seeing this. This is a new court filing, and you're about to hear these Facebook chats that show Kelly Meggs, who is a leader of the Oath Keepers, discussing over Facebook his communications with Proud Boy leaders and how they orchestrated their plan together.

[08:10]

Joining us now is CNN's senior legal analyst Andrew McCabe. He is the former FBI deputy director. Andy, I know that you are just seeing this as we are just seeing this, but it's interesting. This is from December 22nd, 2020. So this is, obviously, two weeks, a little more, before January 6th. And here -- this is from the Oath Keepers. He says, he's telling somebody that he's talking to on Facebook, "We will have at least 50 to 100 oath keepers there." The person responds, "Hell yes." Kelly Meggs says "Plus, we've made contact with the Proud Boys and they always have a big group. Force multiplier," he says. The person responds, "Yes, they'll show in force." Then Kelly Meggs of the Oath Keepers says, "I figure we can splinter off from the main group of proud boys and come up behind them, blanking crush them for good." I think he's talking about officers, Capitol police officers here. And then he's saying, "Yes, we'll catch them in the middle. Game over."

This is the first time that I know of that we hear that this wasn't just a spontaneous protest gone wrong.

ANDREW MCCABE, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: I had the same reaction, Alisyn. This is potentially very, very powerful evidence. As you know, to prove a conspiracy, you have to have evidence that shows a clear agreement between your conspirators, and then of course you have to have evidence of an act in furtherance of that agreement or that conspiracy.

So this is very powerful evidence that indicates conversations, contact, and not just that, but agreement between the two groups on things like tactics and positioning and things. It really goes into kind of granular detail about not just the fact they made contact but what they agreed to.

Now, to be clear, it's not clear to me that the person he's talking to in this exchange is actually from the other group. It's more Kelly Meggs talking about or referring to agreements or conversations or contact that he's had with the Proud Boys. So it's possible that the other side of this conversation could stand up and say, no, that never happened, or that's not the way I understand it. But nevertheless, this is very powerful evidence against -- to prove the existence of an agreement.

BERMAN: I'm just seeing this now for the first time, Andy, and I've only have a chance to read through it once. Again, this is just breaking news. And it seems to be coordinating for action in Washington between the two groups. And in terms of who they were going to surround there. They say we'll come in behind Antifa and beat the hell out of them. I don't necessarily see a direct reference to law enforcement there, although again, I appear to be looking at this. And I don't see in this first pass through, Andy, a direct reference to getting inside the building itself of the Capitol. How important do you think that is? What would the difference be between trying to coordinate a demonstration and/or actual violence? They talk about committing acts of violence outside the Capitol, but as far as I can tell, nothing inside the building.

MCCABE: It is important, John. And like you said, it's not perfectly clear from this very informal exchange. I would also point out, though, that he does say at one point that we're going to shut this -- I'll say thing. That's not the word he used. But we're going to shut this thing down. That could very well be a reference to the proceedings that are underway to certify the election. So it's not perfectly clear. But nevertheless, you have what appears to be evidence of an agreement

on presence at this riot, on positioning at this riot, and on engaging in violence. So if nothing else, it could be, could be evidence of a conspiracy to commit a violent assault.

CAMEROTA: It goes on. It is just fascinating, Andy. as you say. So here's what Kelly Meggs of the Oath Keepers is saying to whomever he is talking to, "Get a hotel and come with us." The person responds, "I'm coming. Just need to know how to prepare." Kelly Meggs says -- oh, no, the same person says, "I will need a list of gear and attire." The response is, "D.C. is no guns, so mace and gas masks. Some batons. If you have armor, that's good. During the day it's kind of boring, but when it starts getting dark, game on."

BERMAN: Mace and batons. But I thought Ron Johnson said it wasn't an armed insurrection. Sorry, but we digress.

CAMEROTA: I guess he hasn't seen these communications yet. But this is, it's just all -- it's so spelled out, Andy. This is -- I can imagine, a prosecutor's dream.

MCCABE: It really is, Alisyn. It completely punctures the myth that, oh, we were just here to provide security to Roger Stone or somebody else and this whole thing just developed around us. It shows a very detailed level of preplanning, of thinking about what weapons to bring, how to dress, where to reside, and what hotels to try to book rooms in.

[08:15:12]

So, any, you know, claim that, oh, we were just there for a rally and this thing happened around us is really deflated by these texts.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: You also note, though, they don't -- it's redacted. We don't see the words Roger Stone but they do acknowledge that they were there to guard somebody, which could very well be Roger Stone there. Does this increase the heat on him?

MCCABE: I think it definitely does. We've seen a lot of references to Roger Stone and other pleadings and references to someone who could be Roger Stone in other pleadings.

We've also seen lately the release of photographs of Oath Keepers with Roger Stone at the rally. I believe Mr. Stone's response to that has been, he was at the rally, but then he never attended the actual riot on the grounds of the Capitol, but it does seem with each one of these federal prosecutorial findings, there are mentions to Stone and we seem to be getting closer to shedding the full light on whatever he might have done that day.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: I also just want to say one last thing because it also brings up former President Donald Trump. You heard Kelly Meggs saying, Trump is staying in. He's going to use the emergency broadcast system on cell phones to broadcast to the American people that he will claim the Insurrection Act.

So that's who they thought they were going to be helping on that day.

Andy, obviously, we're just getting this information.

BERMAN: Yeah, thank you for being with us. We'll keep reading through this, don't go far, because there may be more information over the next several minutes. Thank you, Andy. Appreciate it.

So, Vice President Kamala Harris calling on Congress to act on gun reform after the Colorado massacre. What will this pressure do?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:20:37]

BERMAN: Vice President Harris moments ago calling for immediate action from lawmakers after the massacre that killed ten Americans at a grocery store in Boulder, Colorado.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAMALA HARRIS, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It is time for Congress to act, and stop with the false choices. This is not about getting rid of the Second Amendment. It's simply about saying we need reasonable gun safety laws. There's no reason why we have assault weapons on the streets of a civil society. They are weapons of war. They are designed to kill a lot of people quickly.

INTERVIEWER: Yeah, we all agree.

HARRIS: Let's agree that we need background checks. But the point here is, Congress needs to act.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: CNN's John Harwood live at the White House with more.

John, look, the vice president clearly correct that it's Congress that would need to take action in order to get legislation through. But there is a role for the White House to play here. It has to decide how hard it's going to push, where it's going to put this on its priority list. What do we know about that?

JOHN HARWOOD, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: I think it's not going to be at the top. It hasn't been, and I don't think it will be, despite the horror of this episode.

You know, the relevant question, John, was yesterday, put to President Biden, do you have the political capital to make this happen? What he said was, I don't know. I haven't done the vote counts.

But it's clear that this is a very, very difficult issue to get over the finish line. Even something like background checks, which has overwhelming support in the polls, is not able -- has not been able to pass a Senate filibuster. Then some Democrats say get rid of the filibuster. Could you get Democrats to blow up the filibuster for this purpose?

That looks very unlikely. As for an assault weapons ban, there does not appear to be majority support in the Congress for that, even if you did get rid of the filibuster.

Let's just review the history. We've had three periods of unified Democratic control of government over the last 30 years. First two years of Bill Clinton. First two years of Barack Obama. And now, President Biden.

He wants it to be longer than two years. And the reality is that of all of the difficult things that he wants to do, gun control is one of the riskiest. Democrats concluded in 1993 and 1994 that pushing the assault weapons ban, the Brady Bill, contributed to their loss of congress.

Having gotten this big COVID plan through, President Biden now wants to achieve a very large infrastructure and human capital program that he thinks will have a long lasting effect on the American economy and the well-being of Americans. This is a more difficult and divisive issue. I don't expect this to take over the president's agenda, guys.

CAMEROTA: Thank you very much, John.

All right. Two days after the massacre in Colorado, the Senate at an impasse over expanding background checks on gun sales. Debate turned tense at a Senate hearing yesterday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. RICHARD BLUMENTHAL (D-CT): Thoughts and prayers are not enough. And yet thoughts and prayers is all we have heard from my colleagues on the other side. Thoughts and prayers must lead to action.

SEN. TED CRUZ (R-TX): I agree. It is time for us to do something. And every time there's a shooting, we play this ridiculous theater. I don't apologize for thoughts or prayers. I will lift up in prayer people who are hurting, and I believe in the power of prayer. And the contempt of Democrats for prayers is an odd sociological thing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: All right. Joining us is Democratic Senator Richard Blumenthal from Connecticut, the place of the Sandy Hook massacre, nearly ten years ago.

Senator, nice to see you.

You know, I want you to respond to Senator Cruz there because he not only called what you all were doing in the Senate ridiculous theater, but he went on to say that, quote, laws would do nothing to stop these murderers.

So, what's your response and what laws could have stopped what we've seen in the past week?

SEN. RICHARD BLUMENTHAL (D-CT): Great question, and thank you so much for having me.

My answer to Senator Cruz and I've said it numerous times is the theater here is offering thoughts and prayers, and then blocking real action that can save lives. I believe in thoughts and prayers, but the way to honor them is to move forward with improved background checks and extreme risk warrants, safe storage laws that separate dangerous people from guns.

You know, the shooter in Atlanta, without a weapon, was a misogynist and a racist. But armed with a firearm, he was a mass murderer and a monster. The killer in Boulder was a deeply disturbed man who walked into a grocery store with a military-style automatic weapon that made him a killer.

And in domestic violence, in suicides, the presence of the gun makes death all the more likely, probably fatal and irreversible.

So, we know that separating dangerous people from guns can save lives. We proved it in Connecticut with some of the strongest gun laws in the country, but we're at the mercy of the states with the weakest laws because guns really have no respect for state boundaries. And that's why we need federal action.

CAMEROTA: Senator, do we hold gun dealers, gun sellers responsible enough for selling a weapon, like this, the AR-15 style assault-style weapon to an unstable 21-year-old?

BLUMENTHAL: There are no laws that require a licensed gun dealer to do a psychiatric examination. But there are standards for the sale that can be imposed. They're enforced through background checks. That is the value of those checks that go to a federal database and discern what if someone has been committed to a psychiatric institution or is a felon or otherwise is ineligible to buy the gun.

(CROSSTALK)

CAMEROTA: Yes, but, Senator, what if you haven't been admitted to a psychiatric institution? What if just your classmates in high school and your family note that since 2014, you've thought people are chasing you and you've thought that your computer is being hacked and people are watching you through your computer? How do we get to those people?

BLUMENTHAL: That is precisely the reason that we need extreme risk warrants. Law enforcement authorities will tell you that most of these mass shooters exhibit some signs of mental illness or disturbance. They talk about what they're going to do. It happened in Parkland.

That's the reason why Florida in the wake of the Parkland massacre, passed an extreme risk warrant law that enables a judge to separate the gun from the dangerous person. It's not just background checks. It's also extreme risk warrants that can save lives. Once somebody has a firearm and shows that he is going to be dangerous imminently to himself or others.

CAMEROTA: Senator, is Senator Joe Manchin a key player here to get on board in terms of expanding background checks? He doesn't want to do so for person to person transfers. And, if so, what do you have to say to him?

BLUMENTHAL: I have talked to Joe Manchin. I respect him. He's a friend. But Joe Manchin is one of a hundred. The question to my Republican colleagues is, what are they going to do when they are put on record?

We are, you know, in a new era here. I think it's almost the dawn of a different kind of day because we have a president who feels passionately and a vice president that we need these kinds of common sense measures. We have majorities in both the House and the Senate. We have a majority leader who says we're going to have a vote. We're going to put those Republicans on record.

They're going to be held accountable to the 90-plus percent of the American people who want common sense laws and the more than 80 percent of Republicans, their own voters, who say it's necessary, too.

And what we have that's so different now is a mass movement, a political dynamic led by a new generation. And you've seen and you've heard and, thank you for having many of them on your show. They are a very powerful force, these grassroots groups and individuals.

CAMEROTA: Indeed they are. After parkland we've spoken to many of them, and they are a really powerful voice as you point out.

Senator Richard Blumenthal, thank you very much for your time.

BLUMENTHAL: Thank you.

CAMEROTA: More states are allowing all adults now to get a coronavirus vaccine. Is this a sign of success or does it show actually a level of weakness? We explain, next.

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