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Ex-Officer's Verdict Delivers Rare Rebuke Of Police Violence; Rep. Val Demings (D-FL) Rebukes Rep. Jordan In Fiery Exchange Over Policing; George Floyd Eyewitness Donald Williams Speaks Out To CNN. Aired 7:30-8a ET
Aired April 21, 2021 - 07:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[07:31:17]
BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: The Derek Chauvin verdict delivered a rare rebuke of police violence against Black people in America, but my next guest believes real change requires more truth-telling about our past and our present.
Joining me now is Bryan Stevenson. He is the founder and executive director of the Equal Justice Initiative, which works to end mass incarceration, excessive punishment, and racial inequality. And you may also know him as the author of the memoir "Just Mercy," which was made into a movie that stars Michael B. Jordan and Jamie Foxx. Thank you so much for being with us.
Your organization has put out a statement after this verdict and this is what part of it says. "While today's verdict restores some hope that our system can be responsive to unnecessary violence by police, we have a long way to go. We believe that change requires more truth- telling about our past and our present."
You have said that America's history of enslavement and lynching creates a presumption of dangerousness and guilt on the part of African-Americans. Do you see this verdict as proof that a jury and America is capable of seeing past that?
BRYAN STEVENSON, FOUNDER AND EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, EQUAL JUSTICE INITIATIVE, AUTHOR, JUST MERCY: A STORY OF JUSTICE AND REDEMPTION (via Skype): Well, yes, but I think that's with an asterisk. I mean, this verdict took months of global protests. It took leaders of government at the highest level weighing in, encouraging a conviction. And most importantly, it took a nine-minute video taken by a teenager that documented all aspects of it.
It should not be that hard to create accountability when police officers engage in the kind of reckless violence that we saw yesterday. I mean, the circumstances that created this conviction are extraordinary and we can't rely on those extraordinary circumstances moving forward, which is why I think the priority has to be on shifting the paradigm -- changing the culture of policing in this country. I am sort of disappointed that we haven't seen more from police leadership trying to change their culture and moving away from this warrior mindset that too many law enforcement officers have to a guardian mindset.
I have been looking through the files to identify officers that are prone to this kind of violence. And we haven't talked enough about how we're going to confront this presumption of dangerousness and guilt that I think is behind the violence that we saw in Minneapolis.
KEILAR: You pour over cases. So you mention the video. You know there are so many where there is no video or there's only shaky bodycam video that leaves questions as well as answers. What about those cases?
STEVENSON: Well, I mean, I think we -- those cases result in no accountability, they result in no justice, and I think that's the pain of the moment that we are in. If we're too focused on just this outcome and don't look at the broader problem.
We've got people all over this country who are black and brown and they are burdened in ways that is simply not fair. You can be an Army lieutenant, you can be a doctor, you can be a college student, you can be a journalist, you can be an engineer, but if you're black and brown you go places where you have to navigate these presumptions of guilt and dangerousness.
Your encounters with the police can be lethal, they are life- threatening, and that's simply not right. And to do something about that, we have to not only change policing but we have to commit to the kind of truth-telling that allows us to recognize the repair, the remedy, the change that we have to have in this country.
And throughout most of the 20th century, Black people were tortured and tormented on the courthouse lawn with -- by mobs and there was no accountability. We've been practicing no response to victimization against Black people for so long that we're going to have to do something pretty significant to counter that -- and that's what I think this moment requires.
KEILAR: You mention those encounters with police. You had one -- a life-changing one in Atlanta when you were in your twenties that really fueled your drive to challenge racial bias and inequality in the justice system. Tell us about that.
[07:35:07]
STEVENSON: Well, yes. I grew up in a poor, racially segregated community. I was fortunate to be a product of Brown versus Board of Education lawyers' open doors, so I could go to high school and college. I went to Harvard Law School. I graduated from Harvard.
I was working in Atlanta representing the poor. I came home one night and police officers saw me parked in front of my apartment in midtown Atlanta and confronted me. They shined a light on me. They got out of their car, I got out of my car, and the police officer
pulled his gun and said move and I'll blow your brains out. And I had to say to that officer it's all right, it's OK, it's all right, it's OK. I had to calm them down. They threw me on the back of the car and did a completely illegal search.
And the painful thing for me was after that, I realized that if that same thing had happened to me 10 years earlier I might have run. I might not have had the judgment and the skill to navigate that safely.
When I walked around the community and saw young Black kids, I feared that they weren't ready and so I became irrational. I had to go up to them and say this is what you do. And that's the burden that we still bear in this country when we haven't changed the culture of policing and we haven't confronted the legacy of racial inequality.
KEILAR: Bryan, thank you. I have been looking forward to this conversation with you -- a big fan of your book. Bryan Stevenson, thank you.
STEVENSON: You're very welcome.
JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: He's an inspiration. I mean, my son read his book and I think it changed the way that, at that point, a 13-year-old boy looked at the world. So you can see the difference that one makes.
KEILAR: It's the -- exactly. That is the difference. He and his team have poured over these cases. They have actually exonerated more than 100 folks who were charged and convicted incorrectly -- and obviously, in some cases -- and it's his effort that changed that.
Up next, he witnessed George Floyd's brutal murder and he testified at Derek Chauvin's trial.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD WILLIAMS, EYEWITNESS TO GEORGE FLOYD MURDER: Yes, it was definitely a helpless feeling, it was a frustrating feeling, it was a scary feeling.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KEILAR: We're going to have more reaction from him in a one-on-one interview, next.
BERMAN: Plus, a House hearing gets out of order.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. VAL DEMINGS (D-FL): Did I strike a nerve?
REP. JERRY NADLER (D-NY): The gentle -- the gentle -- the gentlelady --
Law enforcement officers deserve better than to be utilized as pawns.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BERMAN: Congresswoman Val Demings joins us live, next on NEW DAY.
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[07:41:40]
BERMAN: President Biden says Derek Chauvin's conviction on all counts in the death of George Floyd can be a moment of significant change.
Listen to the moment the president called the Floyd family and their attorney, Ben Crump, after the verdict.
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JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I am just -- we're all so relieved -- not just for one verdict but all three. Guilty on all three counts. And it's really important. I'm anxious to see you guys -- I really am.
And we're going to get a lot more done. We're going to get police -- we're going to do a lot. We're going to stay at it until we get it done.
BEN CRUMP, FLOYD FAMILY ATTORNEY: Hopefully, this is the momentum for the George Floyd Justice in Policing Act to get passed and have you sign.
BIDEN: You got it, pal. That and a lot more.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BERMAN: Joining me, Florida Democratic Congresswoman Val Demings. She served as an officer in the Orlando Police Department for over two dozen years, including three years as chief. Congresswoman, thank you so much for being with us.
You heard the president say this can be a moment of significant change. You say justice has prevailed but this is not a happy day. Why?
DEMINGS (via Skype): Well, good morning, and it's great to be back with you.
And look, we've all been watching this trial. We all, I think in America and around the world, saw what happened to George Floyd. And so, justice did prevail on yesterday. You know, our criminal justice system is certainly perfect when -- but when everybody comes together -- when all of the pieces involved come together justice can prevail.
But still, Mr. Floyd lost his life. He lost his life at the hands of the egregious actions of a police officer. His actions were reckless, they were inappropriate, and they were deadly.
And so the sad day was that George Floyd lost his life while in police custody. And so we are thankful that justice prevailed but we also, I hope, understand that we still have a lot of work to do.
BERMAN: Well, to that point, President Biden says it can be a moment of significant change. The implication there is if...if what?
DEMINGS: Well, the bottom line is it is a moment of significant change. It's something we have seen before in this country. You know, John, we are not the America that we should be, but I think yesterday signifies that we are moving in the right direction to become the America that we were created to be.
What we saw in this case, number one, an attorney general who understands what justice looks like. Number two, we had ordinary citizens -- bystanders -- from a 9-year-old girl, a teenager, adults, an off-duty paramedic, and others, one by one, who came into the courtroom and talked about what they saw and what they witnessed.
But then we also had law enforcement. The chief of police came in and talked about what Derek Chauvin did was not their policy nor was it their ethics or their values.
[07:45:08]
Derek Chauvin's manager, the lieutenant, came in and testified. And also, the training officer saying that's not what we teach.
That's certainly something that we have not seen before and so it is a turning point. And I believe it is incumbent on all of us in our respective places to keep the wheels of justice turning.
We have the George Floyd Justice in Policing Act, for example, that has passed the House. Is it perfect? Of course, not. But I do believe it is a major step in the right direction. And so this is an opportunity for the Senate to do their part in terms of helping us to become the America that we were created to be and pass the legislation.
BERMAN: Congresswoman, you were part of a hearing yesterday -- a hearing that was supposed to be about an anti-Asian hate crime bill. I think that's what it was about. But then Republicans, including Rep. Jim Jordan of Ohio, tried to introduce this amendment against defunding police.
And I just want to play what transpired.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DEMINGS: Mr. Chairman, I want to make it quite clear that this amendment is completely irrelevant. I served as a law enforcement officer for 27 years. It is a tough job and good police officers deserve your support.
You know, it's interesting to see my colleagues on the other side of the aisle support the police when it is politically convenient to do so. Law enforcement officers risk their lives every day. They deserve better and the American people deserve --
I have the floor, Mr. Jordan.
NADLER: The gentlelady has -- look --
DEMINGS: What? Did I strike a nerve?
NADLER: The gentle -- the gentle -- the gentlelady --
DEMINGS: Law enforcement officers deserve better than to be utilized --
NADLER: The gentle --
DEMINGS: -- as pawns.
NADLER: The gentlelady --
DEMINGS: And you and your colleagues --
NADLER: The gentlelady will -- the gentlelady --
DEMINGS: -- should be ashamed of yourselves.
NADLER: The gentlelady will suspend and the clock will be stopped. I want to admonish member -- I want to admonish members. They must not interrupt someone who has the time.
REP JIM JORDAN (R-OH): Mr. Chairman --
NADLER: You simply can't shout out. If you think that someone is saying --
JORDAN: I agree.
NADLER: If you --
DEMINGS: Mr. Jordan, you don't know what in the heck you're talking about. You know nothing about what law enforcement --
JORDAN: I know about my motive.
DEMINGS: -- and you're using them as pawns because it serves your --
NADLER: Everyone -- everyone --
DEMINGS: -- ridiculous political party.
NADLER: No. Val, everyone was suspended.
JORDAN: When you give a speech, Mr. Chairman, about motives --
NADLER: Nobody --
JORDAN: -- and questioning motives, and our motives are questioned --
DEMINGS: This is emotionally charging for me because --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The rules allow and request --
(CROSSTALK)
DEMINGS: -- live and die and you know nothing about that.
NADLER: The --
DEMINGS: And to utilize them as political pawns --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Chairman, I have a point of inquiry.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BERMAN: What happened there, Congresswoman?
DEMINGS: Well look, every oath that I have taken, I've taken it very seriously. Our primary responsibility is the protection -- the safety of the American people. I remember that every day.
And let's remember yesterday's markup was about a bill that was designed to help to address the rise and violence against our Asian brothers and sisters. And I think it's interesting that Mr. Jordan nor his colleagues -- the people on his side of the aisle in that markup yesterday -- didn't address that at all. Now, if you are so concerned about protecting law enforcement, how do you not stand with let's address the crimes that law enforcement has to deal with?
Mr. Jordan, yesterday, seized that opportunity to try to use law enforcement as a political pawn. We've seen it so many other times.
And I am painfully reminded of what happened on January sixth. Now, my Republican colleagues had a lot to say yesterday, but on January sixth I was in the House gallery when the violent mob descended upon the Capitol, beat law enforcement down with anything that they could get their hands on --
BERMAN: You --
DEMINGS: -- and Mr. Jordan and others were silent.
And so -- and we've watched over the last four years the lawlessness of our former president. Let's be reminded of the Russia investigation. Let's be reminded of the Ukraine --
[07:50:00]
BERMAN: You --
DEMINGS: -- investigation.
BERMAN: You asked -- you asked --
DEMINGS: Let's be reminded of how Mr. Jordan and the Republicans berated the FBI and other law enforcement agencies who were trying to do their investigations.
BERMAN: You said to him have I struck a nerve.
DEMINGS: And so --
BERMAN: I'm just -- I'm just wondering when you asked him have I struck a nerve, what nerve do you think you struck with Jim Jordan?
DEMINGS: Well, I was the -- the time was mine. I was giving my remarks. Mr. Jordan interrupted. As you saw, he was admonished by the chairman for doing that.
And so, if he was so determined to interrupt me when I was doing -- or giving my remarks, then maybe I struck a nerve. I asked him a question. He didn't answer it.
BERMAN: I'm curious, though, what nerve you -- like, what's the deal with Jim Jordan? I'm wondering what you were implying there.
DEMINGS: You know what I would love for you to do is to invite Jim Jordan on and ask him that very question. What I was talking about on yesterday was we need to stop playing these political games.
And, you know, we're dealing with a lot of issues right now. Americans have been in trouble as a result of COVID-19.
Where is Mr. Jordan or the Republican Party's plan to deal with some of the tough issues that America is facing? I don't believe they have a plan at all. The last major thing that they did do was to give almost a $3 trillion tax break to the richest of people in our country. They do not have a plan that seriously addresses the many challenges that the American people face and so they try to use these distractions.
And for me, yesterday, I wanted to stay focused on why we were really there and that is to, yet again, address the increase in violence against our Asian brothers and sisters.
BERMAN: Yes. It doesn't seem to be what he wanted to talk about yesterday. Glad you can smile about it today.
Congresswoman Val Demings, we appreciate you being here with us this morning. Thanks, always, for coming on NEW DAY.
DEMINGS: Thank you.
KEILAR: Next, George Floyd's brother joins NEW DAY live to respond to the historic verdict. Plus, we'll hear from a man who shed tears on the witness stand as he recalled George Floyd's murder.
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[07:56:45]
KEILAR: One of the eyewitnesses to George Floyd's death who testified in Derek Chauvin's murder trial is speaking out to CNN. Donald Williams is an entrepreneur, a professional mixed martial arts fighter, and a father, and he explains how this moment altered his life.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Donald Williams.
CRUMP: Donald Williams. Donald (INAUDIBLE) to be here.
SARA SIDNER, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): For the first time, the family of George Floyd was able to meet and thank Donald Williams. Williams was one of eight eyewitnesses whose testimony helped convict former officer Derek Chauvin of murder.
WILLIAMS: I witnessed a murder, so I was like you know what? The best thing to do is call the police on the police.
Check his pulse.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.
WILLIAMS: Check his pulse.
SIDNER (voice-over): That's Williams as he tries to get Officer Chauvin to move his knee from Floyd's neck.
Williams says the experience of watching Floyd slowly being murdered in front of him has changed him forever.
WILLIAMS: It was definitely a helpless feeling, it was a frustrating feeling, it was a scary feeling. It's trauma that I deal with on a -- on a regular -- on a daily and a nightly basis thing.
SIDNER (voice-over): But Williams says it also has propelled him to push his children even harder to succeed in life because he says he saw himself in George Floyd's dying eyes.
WILLIAMS: It changed my mindset into a different frame. Like, I was always a father, I'm always there, but what am I going to be able to leave my kids if an officer kills me next, you know? How are my kids going to be able to survive if I don't have no income or they don't have no business to go fall back on, you know?
SIDNER (voice-over): While he works to secure his family legacy, he says America has much work to do on its legacy when it comes to the treatment of Black Americans.
WILLIAMS: In Minnesota, are we safe? No. Nationally, are we safe? No.
SIDNER (voice-over): Even in court, he says it was obvious how Black folks are thought of.
MATTHEW FRANK, PROSECUTING ATTORNEY: And why did you do that?
SIDNER (voice-over): It did not go unnoticed to Williams the way the defense appeared to paint him as an angry bystander.
WILLIAMS: You're not going to paint me as this angry Black man. No, I'm not angry.
It was my passion, you know, for me to speak up for this man -- like, my passion. You can't say my passion is anger, you know? I was passionate for this man's life -- for him to be able to let him go, you know, and that's just who I am -- yes.
SIDNER (voice-over): It is also not lost in him that it seemed all the right things had to happen to get a jury to see a former officer was guilty of murder -- a video taken by a 17-year-old girl, an off- duty EMT making clear the officer didn't bother to check Floyd's pulse, and a neighborhood guy who tried to calm Floyd but broke down on the stand after recalling Floyd calling out for his mother, and Williams' knowledge of chokeholds.
All of these witnesses and many more agreed to take the stand.
Now, he says, Chauvin should face the same kind of harsh sentence he says is often handed down to Black Americans.
WILLIAMS: Put him in jail, throw away the key, and be -- make him an example like they would do any Black man that robs a white lady, robs a white man, murders any other -- his own people. They're going to charge him to the maximum degree. Because why? That's the law.
SIDNER (voice-over): Sara Sidner, CNN, Minneapolis.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BERMAN: Welcome to our viewers in the United States and all around the world. This is NEW DAY. I'm John Berman.
