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Biden Sparks Confusion with Mixed Messages on Masks and Guidelines; Representative Liz Cheney May Face Challenge to Leadership Position; Mitt Romney Booed in Utah for Stances against Former President Trump; New Polling Suggests Americans Do Not Think President Biden Misrepresented His Political Views and Polices During Presidential Campaign. Aired 8-8:30a ET

Aired May 03, 2021 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:00:00]

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Plus, conservative pundits say President Biden is more progressive than he promised to be, but that's not what voters say.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: And the GOP in Arizona is still fighting last year's election results. We will talk to a Republican who wants to put a stop to that right now.

And there is new reporting on migrant families separated at the southern U.S. border. The family reunion set to take place this week.

BERMAN: Good morning to our viewers here in the United States and around the world. It is Monday, May 3rd. And if you're a Republican in a leadership position and you want to keep your job, it seems the chief requirement is to buy into the election lie. This morning a senior house Republican tells CNN that Congresswoman Liz Cheney could be in, quote, very big trouble and could be ousted from her leadership role by the end of the month. She, of course, voted to impeach Trump. She has criticized senators who have promoted the big election lie. She also committed this apparently unforgivable political sin of greeting President Biden in the House chamber last week. And when asked about her future in the GOP, Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy provided little job security.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is Cheney still a good fit for your leadership team, do you believe?

REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY, (R-CA), HOUSE MINORITY LEADER: That's a question for the conference.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: Now Mitt Romney gets the Trump effect. The former GOP presidential nominee narrowly avoiding a censure vote this weekend. Just listen to the reception that he got in his home state from his own party. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. MITT ROMNEY, (R-UT): You know me as a person who says what he thinks. And I don't hide the fact that I wasn't a fan of our last president's character issues. And I'm also no fan --

(BOOS)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: Joining us now to discuss is Peter Wehner, he served in the Reagan, George H. W. Bush, and George W. Bush administrations, and he is now a contributing writer at "The Atlantic." Peter, what is the future of a Republican Party that is anti Mitt Romney and anti Liz Cheney?

PETER WEHNER, CONTRIBUTING WRITER, "THE ATLANTIC": I think it's bleak. I think it's electorally bleak, but more importantly than that, I think it's bleak in terms of morality and justice because, as you said, this is a party now wed to a big lie, really a whole series of big lies by a man who was perpetrating lies morning, noon, and night for his entire presidency, conspiracy theories. And so this is a party that I would say is a diseased party right now and a dangerous party. People like Liz Cheney and Mitt Romney and Adam Kinzinger who dare to speak truth to this party and talk about the reality of things are targeted, and in Liz Cheney's case, she may lose her leadership position. So it's a very difficult situation right now for the party, but it's one they've chosen.

BERMAN: But the question is, it is also inevitable at this point? You brought up Liz Cheney. Our Manu Raju has reporting on this. There's reporting all over the place this morning that she's on shaky ground. You heard it in Kevin McCarthy non-answer about her future. Do you think she'll be in a position of leadership by the end of the month?

WEHNER: I don't know. I think there's no question she's in a tenuous position. Is it inevitable? No, but the trajectory is pretty clear. I have friends who are Republicans who thought that after Trump left the presidency there would be a quick snapback and the Republican Party would go to what it was pre-Trump, that it would be a normal party again. That simply wasn't going to happen. Certain poisons were released during the Trump presidency, some of which existed, I have to say, before Trump became president. But he accelerated all the worst tendencies, and they're spreading.

And the problem here, the core problem here is that the base of the party has been radicalized and Trump-ified in ways that are very dangerous, and with very rare exceptions, Cheney and Romney among them, the rest of the party and members of Congress and leadership are going along because they know if they go crosswise of Donald Trump, despite his massive corruptions and his failures, it's going to hurt them, it's going to weaken them, because the base of the party won't turn out. They threw their hat over the wall. They decided we're going to, in a sense, double down on Trumpism rather than reach out to suburban voters that they lost during the Trump presidency. This is the result of that. KEILAR: Peter, Chris Christie was asked to grade the Trump presidency

and he -- let's listen -- let's first listen to his answer before we try to square it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Overall, how do you grade Trump as president?

CHRIS CHRISTIE, (R) FORMER REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Overall, I give the president an A. But the fact of the matter is that there were some things that happened specifically at the end of the presidency that I think had some things that clouded his accomplishments.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[08:05:09]

KEILAR: He gives him an A, but this is someone who firsthand understands the president's mishandling of the coronavirus pandemic. Chris Christie actually contracted COVID from a Trump White House event and was ultimately hospitalized. And he also has said that Trump committed impeachable offenses, and yet he gives him an A.

WEHNER: Yes, that symbolizes what we've been talking about, right, which is that these people -- I must say, Chris Christie in particular is a kind of pathetic figure and almost buffoonish figure, because you know that he knows better. I think some of the people have drunk the Kool-Aid in the Republican Party. Chris Christie is not among them. This is just cynical. This is part of the ambition that he has that's driving him because he wants to be president presumably again.

But look, Donald Trump left the country angrier and sicker and poorer and more divided. He committed, as Christie had said, impeachable offenses. He was corrupt from stem to stern. He provoked an insurrection. He advocated a coup. The idea that you would give a person like that, Donald Trump, an A is ludicrous. He ranks, if not the worst president in American history, in the worst two or three without question. So seeing somebody like Chris Christie who is not a stupid man say this just gives you an indication of what I said earlier, which is the diseased state of the Republican Party.

KEILAR: Peter, we always appreciate your perspective. Thank you so much for being with us this morning.

WEHNER: Thanks for having me on.

KEILAR: Of the 17 Republicans who voted to impeach President Donald Trump after the January 6th insurrection, nearly all are facing censure. It's a largely symbolic gesture that lets you and everyone that you've ever met know that your work friends really don't like you, with a party seal and some signatures for added effect. Of the 17 who voted against Trump, states have successfully censured five. As for the others, county and district GOP affiliates are getting in on the action, censuring 10, including Senator Lisa Murkowski of Alaska and Congresswoman Liz Cheney of Wyoming who were also censured by their states.

And then there are the four who seemingly escaped censure, and that includes Senator Mitt Romney of Utah. But even so, he received a very unwarm welcome this weekend from Utah Republican Party delegates upset that he voted to convict former Donald Trump in both of his impeachment trials.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. MITT ROMNEY, (R-UT): What do you think of President Biden's first 100 days?

(BOOS)

ROMNEY: Thank you, thank you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: Throughout the course of those comments, there were actually some cheers for Romney, but the boos were deafening at times.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. MITT ROMNEY, (R-UT): You know me as a person who says what he thinks, and I don't hide the fact that I wasn't a fan of our last president's character issues.

(BOOS)

ROMNEY: You might call me an old-fashioned Republican. I am. I've been in our party --

(BOOS)

ROMNEY: Oh, yes. You can boo all you want, but I've been a Republican all my life. If you don't recall, I was the Republican nominee for president in 2012.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: "The Salt Lake Tribune" reports that some Republican state delegates yelled "traitor" and "communist" at Romney. But in the end, their attempts to censure him failed, but not by much, 711 to 798 votes. It was a relatively slim 87 vote margin on a resolution that said Romney shouldn't have voted to impeach Trump, claiming that Donald Trump's 2019 call to the Ukrainian president where he threatened to hold up foreign aid in exchange for an investigation into his political opponent was perfectly OK, and that Trump, far from inciting the January 6th riots urged his followers to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard. OK.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: We fight like hell, and if you don't fight like hell, you're not going to have a country anymore.

CROWD: Fight for Trump! Fight for Trump! Fight for Trump!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: Not so long ago, Mitt Romney was as synonymous with Utah as fry sauce and shakes at Icebergs. In the 2012 presidential election, he carried the state with almost 73 percent of the vote.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. MITT ROMNEY, (R-UT): I accept your nomination for president of the United States!

(APPLAUSE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: But my, how times have changed. On January 5th, the day before the insurrection, this was the scene on the plane and at the airport as Romney made his way back to Washington for the certification of the Electoral College results.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CROWD: Traitor! Traitor! Traitor!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You're a joke. Absolute joke. It's a disgusting shame.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[08:10:03]

KEILAR: Republicans like Mitt Romney an endangered species, and perhaps that's appropriate in Utah where their home of the dinosaur national monument, which might as well feature Republicans who vote their conscience along with the Allosaurus.

As for the other Republicans who avoided statewide GOP censure, they haven't been able to escape the circular firing squad. County and district party affiliates are taking them to task in the most creative of ways, including a resolution passed that reads like a breakup letter, telling Nebraska Republican Senator Ben Sasse that he is bad at his job. And there was a party thrown together in New York where Congressman John Katko, it was in Congressman John Katko's dishonor with 40 guests. One party vice chairman in attendance describing the event like this, quote, "Nobody defended him. Nobody said anything nice about him," which actually is no surprise, because this was literally an event to say not nice things about him.

At least one county censure for Maine Senator Susan Collins, though it happened to be the Maine county where she grew up, the pride of Aroostook County apparently no longer. And Illinois Congressman Adam Kinzinger got at least three county censures plus a letter from his family -- from his family, cancelling him. Then there was Michigan Congressman Fred Upton who avoided censure by his state party only to be hit by censures from at least three counties. And when that failed to have an impact, one of those counties censured him for a second time for his vote to strip conspiracy theory Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene of her committee assignments, because nothing says I hate cancel culture like cancelling someone twice. John?

BERMAN: Why stop there? Thanks so much, Brianna.

So today President Biden hits the road to sell the $4 trillion agenda, which includes his plans for infrastructure. And conservatives, they are calling it socialist. But polls show that is not how voters see it. Actually, that's the wrong framing here. What Republicans are saying -- Harry Enten joins me now. What Republicans are saying is that Joe Biden campaigned as a moderate but is governing as a liberal. They're saying he sold them the bill of goods. What do voters think in terms of what they were sold here? I'm not asking first whether he is too liberal or conservative, but first, whether or not they think he is somehow different from what he said he would be?

HARRY ENTEN, CNN SENIOR POLITICS WRITER AND ANALYST: So very simple. Let's just ask the voters, is Biden a liberal, a moderate, conservative? This is among voters who have a view of it. Before the election, 54 percent said he was liberal, 46 percent said he was moderate, conservative. Now, 52 percent say he's liberal, 48 percent say he's moderate, conservative, basically, the exact same figures, well within the margin of error.

BERMAN: In other words, he wasn't selling one thing and now behaving another way at least in the how the voters see it. In terms of whether they like it, you have got something else?

ENTEN: So let's look at this through a slightly different frame, right. Biden's views on most issues, according to Americans, this is an ABC News/"Washington Post" poll, are they just about right, too liberal, too conservative? Back in August of 2020, 47 percent said just about right. Now, look at that, 48 percent. Basically, the exact same figures. The rest of these are within the margin of error. Perhaps maybe, if you want to make a slight argument the too liberal figure went from 36 to 40 percent. But that is within the margin of error. So basically voters believe the exact same numbers of Americans believe that Biden's views on the issues are just about right from August of 2020 during the heart of the campaign to right now.

BERMAN: And again, and I think what is important about this is we're not looking at the qualitative issue of whether the positions he is taking are too liberal or too conservative. It's just whether or not he is behaving in a way different than what he campaigned on. And you've got another way of measuring that.

ENTEN: Right. So this -- let's put aside the voters for a second, right? Let's just look at what he's actually been doing. So this website on the issues basically rates the different candidates, different politicians, their issue statements. And I basically converted those scores that they give to a zero, most conservative, to 100 most liberal scale. Biden now, 81. So he's closer to the liberal side. He is I call it somewhat liberal. People can disagree on that, but I call it somewhat liberal, 81 now. Where was he in November of 2020? That same exact 81. He was somewhat liberal then. He is somewhat liberal now. He's basically doing what he said he was going to do if you just look at these statement issues that he has made.

BERMAN: Sort of the Dennis Green here.

ENTEN: Yes. He is who he said he was. And the American voters like it. They're not letting him off the hook.

BERMAN: All right, now in terms of attributes, you see a little bit about why some of the voters might be giving him the benefit of the doubt on things.

ENTEN: Sure. So I think this just sort of puts it all together, right? So these are presidential attributes. This is our CNN/SSRS poll. Right around 100 days we released the poll last week. Look at this. On honest or trustworthy, 54 percent say Biden is. Keeping his campaign promises, again, is he who he says he is, 59 percent of Americans say yes.

[08:15:00]

These are very different figures from the last President of the United States who just 37 percent said was honest and trustworthy; a little better on this score right here, 48 percent said that he was keeping his campaign promises, but overall, the American voters -- I don't know why it keeps doing that --

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Your body heat.

ENTEN: It's my body heat. I'm radiating heat off it. It just feels it, I'm so cooking. Basically voters think that Biden is who he says he is.

BERMAN: Okay, again, the issue here, if you want to argue too liberal, too conservative, go ahead, but the idea that he was a Trojan horse of some kind, to let in more liberals than he campaigned on, the voters say no.

ENTEN: No, and the issued statements agree.

BERMAN: All right, Harry Enten, thank you very much.

ENTEN: Thank you.

BERMAN: Republicans have been going after President Biden, but it does seem that they are having haired time figuring out how they want to do it. One Republican Senator even admitting that the party needs to get better at it. John Avlon with the Reality Check -- John.

JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Never has negative partisanship seemed so desperate and flailing because the attacks on President Biden feel like spaghetti being thrown at a wall, but nothing seems to stick to the great frustration of Republicans.

Get this. In the last week, we've seen retracted right-wing fantasies about Biden banning burgers. The VP's book being shipped to the border in welcome kits. Then there is dandelion-gate, which a Newsmax anchor tried to make Biden giving a flower to the First Lady seem bizarre, or Tucker Carlson having one of his periodic meltdowns proclaiming that Kamala Harris is the real President, and complaining that Biden is being covered like Jesus in aviator glasses.

Now, all of this is on the back of campaign attacks on Biden as radical, socialist, incompetent, senile, and the rest of it. So why isn't any of this stuff sticking? Let's look at the data.

First, the idea that Biden is somehow incompetent runs into a buzz saw when it comes to his record confronting the COVID crisis. This is the area where Biden earns the highest marks in a new CNN poll with 66 percent approval, including 30 percent of Republicans, no this front, at least, he seems to be making government work again.

Second, look at the economy. Trump loudly predicted Biden would unleash a depression and a Stock Market crash. Meanwhile, back in reality, the economy is booming on Main Street and Wall Street growing at 6.4 percent in the first quarter of the year with the hottest stock market during any first hundred days since JFK.

All this translates to optimism, a stunning 64 percent of Americans now say they are optimistic about the direction of the country. That's according to a new ABC/Ipsos poll. That is the highest rate since 2006.

This is also a case where the personal is political because even in our polarized times, 57 percent of Americans believe Biden cares about people like me, compared with just 42 percent that said that about Trump in his hundred-day mark. Fifty four percent of Americans say Biden is honest and trustworthy. Only 37 percent said the same thing about Trump.

And all of that makes it difficult to demonize Biden.

As we look at what Senator John Thune told "The Hill," his tone is moderate and he is an affable person. He is a likeable individual, and it is probably harder to attack somebody who is relatable and likeable. Yes, Biden just doesn't provoke the reflexive ire of Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama.

In large part, because he's an older white guy. He's not a symbol of cultural change to folks in the base, and because he doesn't fit the identity politics attacks, he seems comparatively reassuring, not radical, almost regardless of his policies.

It's not like Republicans don't have something to work with here, folks. Biden proposing to spend over $6 trillion to date, the problem is that Republicans have lost credibility on fiscal responsibility because Trump ballooned the deficit by nearly $8 trillion over four years and Republicans didn't say "boo."

So, kind of hard to rally around the deficit and the debt reduction now.

Bottom line, Biden is popular and many of his policies are popular, at least right now, and that is at a time when a record number of Americans say that government should be doing more. So Republicans are left shadow boxing with a phantom menace, trying to gin up culture war gripes about Dr. Seuss and coddling conspiracy theories in the place of real policy. It looks small while Biden is going big in ways that might actually make a difference in people's lives.

And that's your Reality Check.

BERMAN: Thank you so much for that.

So just ahead, mixed messages on wearing masks outdoors. Is the President contributing to some of these confusion?

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: And migrant families separated at the southern U.S. border under the trump administration, the long awaited reunions now planned for this week.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:22:58]

BERMAN: New overnight, some good news on coronavirus. The number of new cases in the U.S. on a downward trend, that's the seven-day moving average.

The death rate at its lowest point since last October. Six states reporting an uptick in cases. The rest either static or the states there in green going out, that's great.

So despite this news, there is some confusion surrounding the C.D.C. guidance on mask usage outdoors and some of that might be because of mixed messaging from the White House.

Joining us now, Dr. Ashish Jha, Dean of Brown University's School of Public Health.

When I talk about that mixed messaging, let me play this moment from President Biden at rally on Friday. Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN (D), PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I'm looking for my mask. I'm looking for my mask. I'm looking for my mask. I'm in trouble.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: So he says he is looking for his mask, he's in trouble, Dr. Jha.

The thing is, the C.D.C. just said if you're fully vaccinated and you're outdoors, you don't need to wear a mask. Now, I know it's a small thing, but does that send a confusing message?

DR. ASHISH JHA, DEAN, BROWN UNIVERSITY SCHOOL OF PUBLIC HEALTH: Yes. First, good morning. Thanks for having me on.

First of all, I would say that I have appreciated the President wearing a mask for the first hundred days. Modelling good behavior is really, really important and we need our leaders to do it.

At this point, on outdoor things, I think the President can lose his mask, and people may be a bit confused about this. I would prefer that now, outdoors with the C.D.C. guidance, the President model the C.D.C. guidance, but I suspect that will happen in the days and certainly by the weeks ahead.

KEILAR: Yes, clearly people are struggling, I think, to make this adjustment, having spent so long wearing masks. And, look, some people are vaccinated. They're not fully vaccinated. So we're seeing all of this shifting.

But I want to ask you about something happening just a few miles away from you in Brookline, Mass, as well as in Salem, Mass. Local officials say that they are planning to keep outdoor mask mandates in place until further review, which of course runs counter to the C.D.C. Is this also, I guess, first off, should they be doing this? And does this just create confusion?

[08:25:10]

JHA: Yes. I think the science on this is pretty clear and the C.D.C. guidance is right. Obviously, localities have the right to do these kinds of things.

I think it's unfortunate, and the reason it is unfortunate is that there are things we want people to do that are going to be cumbersome because they are the right things to do from a public health point of view.

And part of the deal that I think we should be cutting with the American people is when there are restrictions that are not necessary, we should absolutely lift them and only focus on things that really matter for keeping people safe and healthy.

I don't think outdoor mask mandates make any sense. Again, outside of large crowds where it may be important, I don't think they make any sense and I wish that the localities would follow the C.D.C. guidelines.

BERMAN: On an unrelated note, my mom is a graduate of Brookline High.

Dr. Jha, there was an article in "The New York Times" over the weekend suggesting -- with quotes from leading scientists well known around the nation, maybe we won't ever actually get to herd immunity.

A, do you think that's true? And B, does it matter if enough of us get vaccinated?

JHA: Yes, we don't know and part of the issue here is that I think we're making a big deal about the fact that there is a chunk of people that haven't gotten vaccinated yet, a lot of those people just -- they need time and they need better access and I remain pretty remain optimistic that we are going to see a lot more American get vaccinated in the weeks and months ahead. Second is, if we don't hit herd immunity, first, I think that would be

unfortunate because at herd immunity levels, we really don't have to have any restrictions at all and the virus remains in check.

But that said, the experience from Israel is that once you get to about 50 to 55 percent of the population vaccinated, which a few states have now hit in the United States, you really see case numbers plummet.

So we may not get to zero, we probably won't. But if we can get infections under -- you know, at very low levels, most of us can get back to our lives in normal ways, I think we can probably live with that.

KEILAR: There's something that is also a little confusing and that is schools reopening. Because you have some schools that have reopened as the President promised by his hundredth day in office, and there are still many that are virtual especially in communities of color where there are higher rates of infection. How, now that the President has announced that all schools will reopen by the fall, how will he convince parents in these hard hit communities that, yes, it's okay, you can you send your children to school safely?

JHA: Yes. This is -- I think the issue really is about building confidence. The signs on this is pretty clear that we can open schools safely in a way that keeps teachers and staff and kids quite safe.

I think the issue is really about building confidence. I think vaccinations are going to help a lot. I think infection numbers, once they get very, very low in those communities will help a lot, and I think helping people get comfortable with all of the changes that schools need to make around ventilation et cetera, it is going to be a campaign, but I think it's going to be a campaign based on science and evidence and I think once people feel more comfortable, they will be happy to send their kids back.

KEILAR: Dr. Jha, thank you so much. You know, at this time where we need things sorted out, and you're great to be on to help us with that.

JHA: Thank you.

KEILAR: Up next, a Republican who are bucking his own party and calling for Arizona's audit of the 2020 election to end.

BERMAN: And the border wall that never was, see what is left now that the work has stopped.

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[08:30:00]