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Study: Conservative Media Drove COVID Conspiracy Beliefs; Town Keeps Mask Mandate In Place Despite New CDC Guidance; Tech Issues that Affected Virtual Meetings and Congressional Testimony over Last Year Reviewed; Representative Liz Cheney May Face Removal from House Republican Leadership Role for Criticism of President Trump. Aired 8- 8:30a ET
Aired May 04, 2021 - 08:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[08:00:00]
JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Tim Allen movie "Galaxy Quest."
(LAUGHTER)
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REP. FRANK MRVAN (D-IN): -- of our commercial harbors to ensuring northwest Indiana residents have --
REP. SHEILA JACKSON LEE, (D-TX): That is so perfect. Requests funds activities that in close coordination with the NIH and the president --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BERMAN: It's the best subcommittee hearing ever.
In August, an unmuted senator Tom Carper was all of us when technical difficulties got the best of him.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think Senator Carper is there. I think he is trying to be able to queue it all up.
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BERMAN: Even America's top tech CEOs are not immune to the wrath of glitchy tech, like Facebook's Mark Zuckerberg.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are told by Facebook staff that he is alone and attempting to connect with this hearing.
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BERMAN: Amazon's Jeff Bezos. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Bezos? You're on mute.
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BERMAN: It's a good thing that he doesn't deal with technology on a daily basis.
And then there was Minnesota Congressman Tom Emmer whose appearance at a Financial Services Committee hearing turned some heads.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: During COVID-19 we must make sure that our nation's sole proprietors and the smallest of small businesses receive timely --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Will the gentleman suspend. I'm sorry, Mr. Emmer?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you OK?
(LAUGHTER)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I am.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're upside down.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't know how to fix that.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: At least he's not a cat.
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BERMAN: So that's true. At least he's not a cat, which can't be said for Texas attorney Rod Ponton during a Zoom court hearing.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're trying to -- can you hear me, Judge?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can hear you. I think it's a filter.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is. And I don't know how to remove it. I've got my assistant here. She's trying to, but we're prepared to go forward with it. I'm here live. I'm not a cat.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BERMAN: So he says he's not a cat, and we'll take his word for it. He's human. We all are, and it's important to remember that, we're all in this together. So the next time you're accidentally muted or unmuted or a cat, just look technology in the eye and remember the words of Tim Allen in "Galaxy Quest."
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TIM ALLEN, ACTOR: Never give up. Never surrender.
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BERMAN: The subcommittee -- you sat through subcommittee hearings, Brianna, so many. I have to say, I like sort of the background of the Village People there. It spices things up a little bit.
BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, they can be very boring. That's the thing is when you're monitoring these hearings, but there have definitely these moments when they are not. And I love it. I love it.
BERMAN: NEW DAY continues right now, hopefully.
KEILAR: I'm Brianna Keilar in Washington. Or am I John Berman? I'm Brianna Keilar. He is John Berman. I'm in Washington. He's in New York. And on this NEW DAY, Liz Cheney is not backing down. The congresswoman going to war with GOP colleagues who keep pushing the big lie. And a Massachusetts town just doubled down on its mandate for wearing masks outdoors, defying the CDC. So we're going to ask the top doctor there why.
BERMAN: A brand-new study shows how the rightwing media machine pushes lies that lead to people falling for false COVID conspiracy theories. Plus, the risky business of human smuggling at the southern border. CNN's cameras with an up-close look from the other side of the barrier wall.
KEILAR: A very good morning to our viewers in the United States and around the world. It is Tuesday, May 4th.
And Liz Cheney is drawing a line in the sand. The Wyoming Republican is tripling down on her attacks against the big lie wing of the Republican Party. Cheney says she cannot accept what she calls poison, the poison idea that the 2020 election was stolen, a lie, and that President Trump's actions leading up to the Capitol intersection represent a line that cannot be crossed.
BERMAN: Standing up for truth and democracy will likely cost Cheney her job. Her determination to stand up to Trump is triggering an escalating feud with Kevin McCarthy.
[08:05:03]
We're told he is furious with her, furious at her for telling the truth. McCarthy has the power to call for a quick vote that would effectively seek Cheney's removal from the leadership team. He could do that as soon as next week. Multiple Republican lawmakers tell CNN that Cheney is on very shaky ground and does not have the support that she thinks she does. KEILAR: Let's bring in our CNN anchor and chief Washington
correspondent Jake Tapper. His new novel "The Devil May Dance" available for preorder now. We're going to talk all about your new book next week. You are, of course, a prolific author now, Jake. We'll have you on next week to talk about that.
JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: Sounds good.
KEILAR: First, though, today, Liz Cheney is taking a stand, despite knowing that this is going to cost her her job. It could cost her everything politically. What does that say to you?
TAPPER: Well, it says to me, first of all, that obviously we seldom see politicians doing things that might actually hurt them politically because they believe it's the right thing. It's rare in this day and age, and we are seeing Liz Cheney do that right now, which says quite a positive thing about her and the fact she's willing to stand up for what she believes is right.
Now, beyond that is what she is standing up for, and what she's standing up for are basic facts, Basic truth. This is not a debate about troop levels in Afghanistan or whether $6 trillion in new spending proposals from Biden is a good idea. She's actually very conservative when it comes to these policy issues. This is about truth and democracy and the way you framed it earlier.
And it's remarkable that standing up for just basic facts is now controversial within the Republican Party. I happen to think that the reason the House Republican leader is so frustrated with Liz Cheney is not because of all the excuses he gives, but because her continued presence is a reminder of the fact that he is exemplifying cowardice and lies. And her standing there on the podium reminds us all, reminds the nation what he stands for and what she stands for.
BERMAN: She's saying water is wet and the sky is blue, Jake. This is not controversial stuff she's saying. It's the most basic stuff.
TAPPER: Yes. And, also, the thing is, when it comes to these lies, first of all we've seen what they do. The January 6th insurrection was incited by months and months of spreading these lies. Beyond that is the fact when it comes to lies like these and the House Republican Caucus and the leaders like McCarthy and Steve Scalise, they are like Doritos. You can't just do one. You keep lying and lying and lying. We saw last week, McCarthy spreading the lie about Joe Biden wanting to steal your hamburgers for climate change. We've seen the appeasement of lies when it comes to COVID and the fact that about half of Republican voters say they're not willing to get vaccinated because of all the lies and fear that has been injected into the Republican bloodstream about health issues.
We see the appeasement of the conspiracy theorists that support the deranged theory of QAnon, that there are satanic, cannibalistic pedophiles who run Hollywood and the Democratic Party. It just keeps going. That's the point. The lie about the election on its own is anti-democracy, and it is sowing seeds of ignorance in the populace, and obviously it has the potential to incite violence. But beyond that is, if you're willing to lie about that, what are you
not willing to lie about? And that's where we are when it comes to the House Republican leadership, McCarthy and Scalise, and where we are with too many leaders of the Republican Party. They're not willing to tell their voters the truth. What does that say about them?
BERMAN: Jake, you've been eloquent about this on your show, now two hours long every afternoon, I should note, that you're not saying this isn't about Republican policy decisions. This isn't about --
TAPPER: No.
BERMAN: -- small government or low taxes. That's what makes this so troubling. That's what draws into question so much.
TAPPER: Yes, look, I happen to believe, my opinion, and my politics and my knowledge of history, I happen to believe that this country needs a strong, thriving, healthy, fact-based Republican Party. I happen to believe that. I happen to believe that it's not good for one party to have all the control in Washington, whichever party it is, with no counterargument ever being made in a successful way. I don't think that's healthy. I don't think it's healthy for the country to only have a debate between the left and the far left.
[08:10:05]
We need a thriving Republican Party. We need an argument, a counterargument. No, I think -- this is not me. But we need a Republican Party saying, no, I think that $6 trillion in new spending is a bad idea and here's why. No, I think that subsidized day care is the wrong way to go for our culture and here's why. These are not again, my arguments, these are arguments that conservatives would make.
OK, great. We need those debates happening. But we can't have those debates if one side of the argument is not willing to stick to standards and facts for a whole host of reasons. One of them is, how am I supposed to believe anything they say? If they're willing to lie about Joe Biden wanting to steal your hamburgers and QAnon and the big lie about the election, what are they not willing to lie about? Why should I put any of them on TV?
KEILAR: And Berman had this amazing interview with Michael Wood last hour who lost in Texas running an anti-Trump platform.
Republican party I know who he is.
KEILAR: He was creamed. And incredible candidate if you look at him on paper, right? And very well spoken and charismatic. But he lost so big, and you could just tell how discouraged he was because of the points that you're making there. But it's worth pointing out, Jake, that Republicans like Cheney and Mitt Romney, they never wavered in saying Trump incited the insurrection on January 6th, unlike these Republicans. Let's watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So you think it was an impeachable offense?
CHRIS CHRISTIE, (R) FORMER REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Oh, sure. If inciting to insurrection isn't, then I don't really know what isn't.
Overall, I give the president an A.
REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY, (R-CA), HOUSE MINORITY LEADER: The president bears responsibility for Wednesday's attack on Congress by mob rioters. He should have immediately denounced the mob.
I was the first person to contact him when the riots was going on. He didn't see it. He ended the call telling me, he'll put something out to make sure to stop this. And that's what he did.
SEN. MARCO RUBIO, (R-FL): I think the president bears responsibility for some of what happened. It was most certainly a foreseeable consequence of everything that was going on.
President Trump is the most popular, most influential Republican in America. I think he would still be that in 22 and 24. And if he decides to run for president and for the nomination, he's going to be the party's nominee, and that's the way I would view it.
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM, (R-SC): All I can say is, count me out. Enough is enough. I've tried to be helpful.
Donald Trump is the most vibrant member of the Republican Party. The Trump movement is alive and well.
SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL, (R-KY) SENATE MINORITY LEADER: President Trump is practically and morally responsible for provoking the events of the day.
BRET BAIER, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: If the president was the party's nominee, would you support him?
MCCONNELL: The nominee of the party? Absolutely.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nikki Haley is now coming out criticizing her former boss, telling "Politico" in an extensive new piece, quote, "I don't think he's going to be in the picture. I don't think he can. He's fallen so far. We need to acknowledge he let us down. He went down a path he shouldn't have, and we shouldn't have followed him, and we shouldn't have listened to him, and we cannot let that happen again."
NIKKI HALEY, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO U.N.: They beat him up before he got into office. They're beating him up after he leaves office. At some point, give the man a break. Move on.
I would not run if President Trump ran.
SEN. TED CRUZ, (R-TX): I think yesterday in particular, the president's language and rhetoric crossed a line, and it was reckless. I disagree with it. And I have disagreed with the president's language and rhetoric for the last four years, and I've said so many, many times.
The partisan rage and the partisan anger the Democrats feel, they hate Donald J. Trump, and they are engaging in an act that I think is petty. I think it is retribution. I think it is vindictive, and I think a waste of time. And so to coin a phrase, I think it's time to move on.
And they want him to go away. Let me tell you this right now. Donald J. Trump ain't going anywhere.
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KEILAR: Lies are clearly good politics in the current GOP, but it makes you wonder as you look at a lot of these folks there that we just heard from, is they're looking for a political future. It's in the party of what?
TAPPER: Yes, here's the thing. As somebody who reads a lot of history, there are politicians who live for the day, and there are politicians who live for what history will say about them, if anything. And they are two different kinds of politicians. I don't know that I necessarily agree with the inclusion of Mitch McConnell in that montage, but as a general note, I think there are a lot of politicians that you just featured who are worried about the day, especially if it has to do with whether or not they can run and win a primary in 2024 on their pursuit of the White House.
[08:15:04]
And the truth of the matter is, whether it's the Salem witch trials or McCarthyism or Watergate, whatever it is, history takes the long view. And if you stand with things that you know are damaging for the country, things that you know are not true, with the hope that, well, I'm just doing this for now so that I can get power but then when I'm in power I'm going to be -- I'm going to be a good guy or I'm going ton a good gal.
History doesn't record it that way. History doesn't see it that way. History sees you standing with lies. History sees you being a coward.
And, you know, those are decisions for every one of these politicians to make. They don't want to tell the truth. They are afraid of Republican voters who have been lied to for months now by a very sophisticated propaganda machine led by President Trump but augmented by many of others, including the entire Murdoch machine, and they are in fear of the voters.
When you are afraid of your own voters, that you're willing to take a position that is contrary to what you know to be true, you are not a leader. You're not a leader. You're a cowardly follower. And sadly, that's where we are right now.
BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: It's a very good point you make. It's not apples to apples to put Mitch McConnell in that group. It is not the same thing.
I know you'll definitely hear from people on the left. They do not think that Mitch McConnell is a profile in courage. But what we've seen from him is very different than from some of those other Republicans.
JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Jake, I want to play something that Bernie Sanders said yesterday because I think this puts things in a different perspective for some Democrats as they look forward to the next two years. Listen.
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SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I-VT): From an historical perspective, you know, it is going to be a really tough fight for Democrats to retain control of the House and the Senate. And if we lose in either body, then to a significant degree, Biden's agenda is finished.
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BERMAN: Yeah, it sounds dire for Democrats, I think, when he says that. But he's just speaking the truth. The president in his first midterm election tends to lose seats. If the Democrats lose anything, they're going to lose power in both chambers.
TAPPER: Look, Democrats have a real challenge because they have to keep the base motivated through the midterm elections of 2022 which is never easy, especially for Democrats. And especially for Joe Biden to be quite frank who won overwhelmingly, but even though there were -- Biden has very enthusiastic supporters, I think it's fair to say the progressive base was voting for him because he wasn't Trump and because of policies articulated, not because necessarily they saw him the same way they saw, say, Bernie Sanders.
But beyond that, in addition to keeping those voters motivated and excited and getting them to the polls, which has always been a challenge for Democrats -- always -- and look what happened in the Texas special election. It's not a good sign for Democrats. I mean, they didn't even make the runoff. So, beyond that, they also need to make sure that the suburban voters who turned out for Biden turned out for him again in 2022 and 2024. That they don't feel the party is running too far to the left. That's a real challenge.
And, you know, we're talking about Kevin McCarthy and his embrace of the big lie. It is entirely possible, if not probable, that he could be speaker of the House. These aren't just, you know -- these aren't just random members of Congress that nobody out there should worry about. This is somebody embracing the big lie, who is about to become in all likelihood the speaker of the House in 2022 unless Democrats get their act together.
BERMAN: Jake Tapper, thanks for waking up and hanging out with us. Really appreciate it.
TAPPER: Only for you two. Only for you two. And if I'm being completely honest, only for Brianna. KEILAR: Thanks, Jake.
BERMAN: We always want you. We always want you to be honest.
KEILAR: I will say this part. Preorder the book and watch "THE LEAD" tonight at 4:00 to 6:00 Eastern. What, four books now, Jake? Four or five?
TAPPER: Well, remember, I'm 52, so like there's a few years under my belt here in terms of my achievement in writing books.
KEILAR: That's a lot of books.
TAPEPR: "The Devil May Dance", it comes out in a week. We'll talk about it then.
BERMAN: You don't look a day over 53. Jake Tapper, thank you so much for being with us, totally psyched to talk about the book. It is phenomenal. We'll see you next week.
KEILAR: So a new study finds that people who got more of their news from conservative media and from social media were also more likely to believe conspiracy theories about the coronavirus.
[08:20:01]
We're joined by Kathleen Hall Jamieson, who is the co-author of the study and director of Annenberg Public Policy Center at the University of Pennsylvania.
This is fascinating here. What have you learned about these links between beliefs in COVID-19 falsehoods and reliance on social media and conservative news outlets for information?
KATHLEEN HALL JAMIESON, DIRECTOR, ANNENBERG PUBLIC POLICY CENTER AT UNIVERSITY OF PENNSYLVANIA: Well, my colleague Dan Bremer and I found was there's a real difference in what you're exposed to overtime. This isn't just one snapshot in time. This is following people across a four-month period during the COVID pandemic, March through July. We found that those beliefs intensify if you are exposed to conservative outlets and our social media. But they were minimized if you were exposed to mainstream print.
And the question then peculiars if you can intensifies or minimize, that means we can find a way to catch those individuals who may be vulnerable before they move into conspiracy world and reduce the likelihood others will move in. We have more familiarity with accurate information, preemptively.
For example, on the origins of the virus. How do we know it's not bioengineered? That's what the conspiracy theory says. China bioengineered this as a weapon. Well, the scientists have looked at the genome and haven't found any evidence of it.
KEILAR: I mean, look, you have former top officials in the Trump administration who are experts who have breathed life into that. So, you also have people of stature who have said things like that.
How do you -- how do you stop people from drifting into that? How do you catch them as you say, before they do that? Because it seems like once they're gone, they are kind of gone.
JAMIESON: Familiarity with information increases the likelihood you think it's accurate. The more exposure you have to an accurate understanding, the greater the likelihood you'll accept that accurate understanding.
We can create climates in which you're less susceptible to deception because we've put deeper understandings of what we know in place before you're ever exposed to the deception. Importantly, we can digest what we know into forms the public can get.
So, for example, what's problematic about the conspiracy beliefs isn't that you hold them. What difference does it make if China created this bio weapon or not to me personally. The problem is, the belief in these conspiracy theories increases the likelihood that you will not vaccine.
So, what should we worry about, communicating in advance. The bottom line, the gist, vaccination is safer than getting the virus. If we can say, well, then I shouldn't vaccinate, the important thing is protecting you and your community, getting you vaccinated, I wouldn't worry as much about the bioengineering as about the false inference.
Let's get accurate, good deep information about the safety of vaccination relative to the risks of getting COVID.
KEILAR: Yeah, look, it's fascinating to talk to you. This is a wicked problem. And the solutions, while they seem simple, are difficult to execute. The government is certainly having a hard time executing them.
So we appreciate your input here and sharing your study with us. Kathleen Hall Jamieson, thanks.
Up next, the New England town that is reinforcing its outdoor mask rules right when the rest of America is relaxing them.
BERMAN: And human smuggling at the U.S. southern border. A dramatic look at this dangerous operation up close.
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REPORTER: Right now, they're just making their way slowly toward the wall. They're crawling, clearly trying to avoid being seen by anyone who may be on the border.
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[08:27:27] BERMAN: In most of the country now, you no longer have to mask up before heading outside as long as you're fully vaccinated. That is unless you live in Brookline, Massachusetts, that town which borders Boston has decided to keep its mask mandate in place despite new CDC guidelines released last week.
Joining us is Dr. Swannie Jett. He's the director of health and human services for Brookline.
Dr. Jett, thank you so much for being with us.
Why? Why did you decide to extend the outdoor mask mandate?
DR. SWANNIE JETT, DIRECTOR OF HEALTH & HUMAN SERVICES, TOWN ON BROOKLINE, MA: Well, first, thank you for having me.
The Brookline was one of the first in the nation to institute a face covering mandate. And the reason we did it then is because we believe that COVID was airborne as well as air droplet borne. And Brookline is a very dense community.
So we proceeded in that rationale into making a mask mandate at that time, and we need to go back to that same process and I need to talk to my advisory council before we lift it. As you know, only 30 percent of our population has been vaccinated. That's only about 20,000 people. So we still have 40,000 people that have not been vaccinated.
And if we lift the mask mandate, I mean, who is going to police those people that are not wearing a mask to make sure they have been vaccinated. And so we are very cautious about that impact.
BERMAN: We're talking about outdoors, though. One of the things over the last year is follow the science. Follow the science. And, you know, you're what, like 18 times less likely to catch COVID outdoors, the positivity rate in Brookline is 0.5 percent. It's really low.
Isn't following the science at this point, wouldn't it be lifting the mask mandate?
JETT: Well, we followed the science in the beginning when we institute the mask mandate, when CDC said that asymptomatic people didn't have to wear masks. We did hear the science that it was temperature controlled as well.
So if COVID is more likely to persist in colder climates -- right now, it's 40 degrees outside. So, again, we still want to take a look at the science and present it to the advisory council and they will advise me as to what the next steps may be.
BERMAN: Are you concerned -- you mentioned only 30 percent of the population in Brookline is vaccinated. Are you concerned that by keeping this mandate in place you're not giving that unvaccinated population an incentive to go out and get the shot?
JETT: Well, you know, actually if you keep a mask mandate in place, it might give them an incentive to get the shot. And remember, COVID is not over. The pandemic still exists.
