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New Day

Georgia Lt. Gov. Geoff Duncan (R) is Interviewed about Liz Cheney's Fate; Judge: Barr Misled on His Decision Not to Charge Trump; More Global COVID Cases in Past 2 Weeks Than in First 6 Month; WHO COVID Chief on Confusing Mask Guidance in U.S. Aired 6-6:30a ET

Aired May 05, 2021 - 06:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: I'm John Berman with Brianna Keilar. On this new day, a hot-mic moment, and a hot mess in the GOP. Now the party's effort to purge the truth about to hit Liz Cheney.

[05:59:55]

Plus, a judge accuses Bill Barr of misleading her and Congress about his decision not to charge Donald Trump after the Mueller report and orders a secret memo be released.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: Could a picture of one of the jurors in the Derek Chauvin murder trial jeopardize the guilty verdict? The debate begins.

And where's Ben Affleck when you need him, or Bruce Willis? Rocket debris from space right now hurtling toward Earth, but where will it land?

BERMAN: I did not miss the Armageddon reference, one of the most underrated movies of all time.

Good morning to our viewers here in the United States and around the world. It is Wednesday, May 5. The end appears to be near for Liz Cheney. And remember, her crime in Republican circles is speaking the truth, saying the election was not stolen, refusing to promote the big lie.

Republican sources tell CNN that Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy is orchestrating a vote to remove her from leadership. That could happen by this time next week. A hot-mic moment on FOX captured McCarthy's blunt assessment of Cheney's future. We should note that the audio was edited and does not contain the host's question.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA): She's got real problems. I've had it with -- I've had to with her. You know, I've lost confidence. Well, someone just has to bring a motion, but I assume that will probably take place.

(END VIDEO CLIP) KEILAR: Sources tell CNN the favorite to replace Cheney is New York congresswoman and Trump ally Elise Stefanik, who is already working behind the scenes to make sure that she replaces Cheney.

Overnight, "The Wall Street Journal" editorial board coming out in support of Cheney, arguing, "She may be ousted because she is daring to tell the truth to GOP voters, and at personal political risk. Republicans will look foolish, or worse, to swing voters if they refight 2020 in 2022."

Let's talk now with Georgia's Republican lieutenant governor, Geoff Duncan.

Sir, thank you so much for joining us this morning. She isn't carrying out the message. That's what we heard from the House Republican leader. The message is a lie. So what does that say about the state of the GOP to you?

LT. GOV. GEOFF DUNCAN (R-GA): Look. There's definitely chaos on the battlefield right now, and it's going to take some time for, I think, the base to come back.

But at the end of the day, just like Liz Cheney, I believe in telling the truth. I think real leadership is about telling the truth. And you know, anybody -- any Republican talking out of the front of their lips or the sides of their lips about the election fraud issues that have been debunked is not leadership. It only shows that you're able to take commands from Donald Trump.

And certainly, that feels like, in the short term, that's the direction that too many folks want to go in the party. I think long- term, it's going to come back, and folks are going to chase the honest leaders.

KEILAR: So in the short term, we see Kevin McCarthy with, very much, a finger to the wind, which is something that politicians often do, but why is this different to you?

DUNCAN: Yes. I don't know. It's hard to watch. You know, I'm a sucker for good leadership, and at the end of the day, it doesn't feel like that's what we're see playing out here across our party. We're watching folks try to relitigate and waste energy.

You know, we're less than four years away from trying to win back the White House. I believe an overwhelming number of Americans are going to wake up over the coming years and try to look for an adult in the room to vote for to lead the greatest country in the world. They're going to want folks with vision and courage and honesty. To me, that's what a GOP 2.0's going to look like.

But it's going to take some time to get there. It's going to take some real leadership. And, you know, look, it's just still hard for me to believe that any Republican thinks that it makes sense to fan the flames on stuff that's been debunked a million times, all in pursuit of trying to keep one person happy who's down in Florida. It just makes no sense to me. KEILAR: It doesn't make sense. I mean, it isn't the truth, but that

is, as you know, where so many folks in your party are moving, even people that, quite frankly, we know don't actually believe this, right? We know why they're doing it. Do you see the party turning into the party of -- of lies?

DUNCAN: No. I think we're going to head in a better direction. I think we're going to continue to watch skirmishes like what we're seeing play out in Congress. Certainly, I'm having to deal with it on my end here in Georgia.

But I do believe, over the course of time, that folks will come back towards following great leaders with good visions and talk about real issues.

I mean, at the end of the day, I believe an overwhelming number of Americans want us to talk about real issues. I mean, we're still in the throes of a pandemic. We're still in economic uncertainty. This should be the sweet spot for Republicans right now to really show the contrast between President Biden's direction that he wants to take this country and the direction that we think conservative leadership should.

Because at the end of the day, I think Republicans are best at controlling the economy and public safety and national security. Those should be the center points that we -- that we champion in every conversation that we have, not this continued chaos that we watch play out in small little circles.

[06:05:00]

KEILAR: But she's probably going to lose her leadership position, don't you think?

DUNCAN: I'm not -- I'm not a member of Congress, so I don't -- I'm not inside the weeds, but I will tell you, I definitely find a lot of encouragement from her courage and her steadfastness.

Look, Liz Cheney is not buckling. She's going to continue to fight for the -- fight for the truth. And you know, this might be the most lopsided battle in the history politics in this country. I mean, there is 100 percent of the facts line up with there was no fraud. Zero facts line up with there was fraud. And for me, the longer we wait to take our medicine as Republicans, the longer it's going to take to start winning again. And I certainly hope we start taking our medicine quicker -- quicker than we are now.

KEILAR: I mean, look from appearances here, Cheney, who actually overwhelmingly won an anonymous vote to keep her leadership position just three months ago, it looks like she is very much in jeopardy of that. We heard as much from Kevin McCarthy.

So I hear you having hope, maybe some optimism for the future of the GOP, but if you're looking at House leadership and you do not have someone like Liz Cheney who's just committed to the truth against the big lie, that that point of view isn't even represented in House leadership.

DUNCAN: Yes. Look, just the fact that you and I are having this conversation this far after the election about folks being held up -- you know, held accountable for telling the truth is -- is troubling for the Republican Party, but, look, I do think this will move -- will move past this. It may be one of those moments in time where we take two steps backward before we take three steps forward, but I can tell you that there's going to be a time. There's a shelf life, and I hope it -- I hope it arrives sooner than later.

KEILAR: All right, look. I know -- I know Republicans like you feel like this is a distraction. You probably want to focus on things like fiscal conservatism, especially as you're facing proposals that are big coming from the president, and certainly the big lie is very much the focus. We appreciate your perspective.

Lieutenant Governor, thanks for being with us this morning.

DUNCAN: Thank you.

BERMAN: All right. Developing this morning, a federal judge is accusing former Attorney General Bill Barr of misleading her and Congress about his decision not to charge former President Trump for the obstruction at the end of the Mueller investigation.

Judge Amy Berman Jackson has ordered a secret memo about that decision be made public arguing, quote, "The agency's redactions and incomplete explanations obfuscate the true purpose of the memorandum, and the excised portions belie the notion that it fell to the attorney general to make a prosecution decision or that any such decision was on the table at any time. The fact that Trump would not be prosecuted was a given."

Joining us now, CNN senior legal analyst Elie Honig. His new book, "Hatchet Man: How Bill Barr Broke the Prosecutor's Code and Corrupted the Justice Department," is set to be released in July. Prescient.

Elie, first, just explain exactly what this memo is and what Judge Berman Jackson, no relation, means when she says that Barr basically lied about it.

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: This is so interesting, John, because it's new. We all remember what I consider to be Bill Barr's original sin, when he lied to Congress and the American public about the Mueller report.

In his four-page memo, now DOJ said that this new secret memo was actually what Bill Barr relied on when he concluded there was no obstruction of justice. They led the court to believe, well, he had this deep memo that supported this conclusion.

It turns out that memo, the new memo, came after the fact, and it was really just used as a post-op rationalization for what Bill Barr had already decided. Judge Jackson was not pleased and felt she'd been misled by that. BERMAN: She's seen the memo at this point. And she said this isn't

some legal guide to deciding whether or not to prosecute. You made up your mind beforehand, right?

HONIG: Exactly. It's a justification after the fact, which is very different than saying this is sort of a careful legal guide that Bill Barr followed.

BERMAN: So in other words, she's saying that Bill Barr is misleading, but another way of saying that is he was lying. Right? And you, I said your book is prescient. Your book is not released yet, but it contains this excerpt. You write, "After nearly two years and countless exaggerations, obfuscations, and outright false statements on his part, I have no hesitation in saying it: Barr is a liar."

Now, you used the word "obfuscation" there, which Judge Berman Jackson does, too.

HONIG: That was not intentional. But yes, John. I'm not pulling any punches with Bill Barr. And in both of the fields where I've worked, law and now media, you tend to be reluctant to call someone a liar. You say they lack candor or they were disingenuous. I'm sorry, Bill Barr has had his chances. He has lied to the American public time and again throughout his tenure as attorney general.

We know that, for example, because Robert Mueller told us and misled the public about his report. Now two federal judges. Amy Berman Jackson is the second federal judge to say the same thing.

And that is such an -- an unusual and extreme thing for a federal judge to go on record and say the attorney general, you misled me. I was always taught as a prosecutor all you have is your creditability. You never lie. You never even exaggerate or stretch the truth. To have multiple federal judges saying the attorney general lied, obfuscated, choose your word, that is a remarkable thing in a statement about Bill Barr.

BERMAN: Very quickly, what's Merrick Garland's role in pushing to get this memo released at this point, and what are we going to see if we do see it?

HONIG: Yes, so Merrick Garland needs to get out of this litigation. DOJ has been fighting to protect Bill Barr's back, you know, ever since he did damage at DOJ. Merrick Garland, I think, needs to take the position of we're going to put it out there. Everything about the Mueller report, for better or worse, let the public see it. Merrick Garland also has an important decision to make about the obstruction of justice at the heart of the Mueller report. That's still within the statute of limitations, five years. That can still be charged.

BERMAN: We're going to see this memo, don't you think.

HONIG: I think we will, for sure.

BERMAN: All right. Other big legal development overnight, and this has to do with Rudy Giuliani, the raid on his apartment and workplace, the devices that were obtained there. We understand that prosecutors are now asking for a special master -- that's a specific term -- to go through this to do what? To determine what is protected by attorney/client privilege? What's important here and what does it tell you that it's prosecutors asking for this right away?

HONIG: So this is the right way to do things. This is the right way to protect, really, Rudy Giuliani's interest, as well as the prosecutor's interest. It's the same essential procedure that was used in the Michael Cohen search warrant.

So what's going to happen is all these documents and emails that they pull off of Rudy's phone, they're going to be viewed by a special master, a respected, probably former judge, who will look at them and decide, yes, that is privileged, and the prosecution cannot have it or, no, it's not privileged on the prosecution team can have it. And Rudy Giuliani will have a chance to object, to stand up for his rights.

Michael Cohen objected many, many times and was successful very, very few of them.

BERMAN: What's the bar you have to reach for it to be protected?

HONIG: Attorney/client privilege. Right, meaning it's a communication between an attorney, being Rudy Giuliani, and a client, maybe Donald Trump, maybe somebody else, where Rudy Giuliani is providing actual legal advice, but, importantly, it cannot be related to the ongoing commission of a crime. So if an attorney and client are saying, hey, let's commit a crime together, that's not privilege. That goes over.

BERMAN: Counselor, appreciate you joining us. Thanks so much. Can't wait to read the book when it comes out, as I said.

So could a picture help Derek Chauvin's murder appeal? Why a new revelation about a juror is sparking a debate.

KEILAR: Plus, this morning, Facebook will decide whether to reinstate the ban on Donald Trump, and we have a clue on what will happen.

And we'll speak live with the head of the WHO about what she thinks about the U.S. reopening.

This is NEW DAY.

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[06:16:52]

KEILAR: More Americans are receiving their COVID vaccine, so when can we get back to normal? That is the question here in the U.S. But globally, this pandemic is far from over.

For instance, across the world, we have seen more cases of COVID-19 reported in the last two weeks than during the entire first six months of the pandemic. This is according to the top official at the World Health Organization. Joining us now is Maria von Kerkhove. She is the COVID-19 technical

lead at the World Health Organization's health emergencies program.

Maria, thank you so much for joining us. This is such a critical time in the pandemic. And you had said three weeks ago that the trajectory of the global pandemic was, quote, "growing exponentially." You said that we were, quote, "at a critical point of the pandemic." Have things improved or have they gotten worse? What do you think?

MARIA VON KERKHOVE, COVID-19 TECHNICAL LEAD, HEALTH EMERGENCIES PROGRAM, WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION: Well, thanks for having me on the show. And indeed, we really are in a critical period. It's hard to say, you know, if we've improved or not. In some parts of the world, we've really improved.

Some countries have shown us that they can control COVID. They can control the spread. They can keep transmission low. They can keep vulnerable population safe.

In other parts of the world, the virus is spreading rapidly. There are a lot of complicating factors that we are seeing globally. The intensity of transmission is very different around the world.

We have hot spots in all of our WHO regions around the world, the six WHO regions. But also in all of our six WHO regions, we've seen positive signs, you know, where people can really drive that transmission down.

The factors that are driving increased transmission are virus variants. And we have a number of virus variants that are circulating. Some are of concern at a global level. Some of them are on our radar. We call these variants of interest. We have vaccine rollout which is very uneven. It is incredible inequitable around the world. And there's slow rollout even in countries that do have the vaccine.

And we have a lot of fatigue. Governments want to open up societies, which we all want. But if they're opened up too quickly and you increase social mixing, the more people come in contact with each other. If the virus is there, it will circulate. It will take off.

That combination is very dangerous. And 16 months, 17 months into a pandemic, having the highest number of cases reported each week is not the situation that we need to be in.

But we do need to learn where we can. We need to course correct where we can, and we need to have the hope that, with all of the tools, the public health tools plus the vaccines, we really have a shot at controlling COVID, and we can do this. We just have to collectively come together from the political level all the way to the individual level to do that.

KEILAR: So to that point of reopening and concerns that brings, last week the CDC here in the U.S. issued new mask guidelines that say if you're vaccinated, you can not wear your mask when you're outdoors except in crowded venues. Should Americans still be wearing masks, indoors, outdoors, especially

as we're seeing these reopenings in so many populous states and cities?

VON KERKHOVE: So that's a great question, and I would defer to the CDC guidance, because there are specifications within the U.S. It's so context-specific. It depends on the setting that people are in. It depends on if it's indoors or outdoors. It depends on if people are vaccinated or not.

What we emphasize is that it's no one measure alone that will keep you safe. It's the combination of measures, and it's the combination of plus vaccination. Not vaccine-only. So masks, distancing, doing more outdoors, as opposed to indoors.

It does depends who you're coming in contact with, how close you are, the duration, and indoors or outdoors. I would follow the CDC guidance on the different context that are -- they are providing that specification of when and where to use those masks. It depends on your age. It depends on your underlying factors.

So it isn't a short answer, unfortunately. We advise doing it all. I know I'm mainly talking to a U.S. audience here, but globally, we need everybody to do what they can.

Masks are part of that solution. They're not the only tool. Vaccines are part of the solution, not the only tool. Ventilation, respiratory etiquette, hand hygiene. I would advise continuing to do all of that for as long as we can until we're out of this.

KEILAR: In India, I mean, the scene is terrible. The worst COVID-19 outbreak in the world, was this a government failure? And I ask that because we aren't out of the woods yet as a global society.

VON KERKHOVE: We aren't out of the woods yet as a global society. And we have all seen these heartbreaking images on television, and our hearts go out to everyone who is affected by this.

We at WHO are doing everything that we can to support the people of India, the government of India, and people around the world where we are still seeing increases in a number of other countries. We're shipping supplies. We're shipping tents. We're shipping respirators, tests, oxygen concentrators, and much of the world is coming to the aid of India, as well.

KEILAR: I know -- I know you are. I know countries run-around the world, but this is important, because this could happen other places, potentially, where you have low levels of vaccination. Is the Indian government to blame here? Are they a cautionary tale for the rest of the world?

VON KERKHOVE: Well, if you remember, we have seen a lot of similar trajectories in a number of countries across -- even across Europe. We saw trajectories of a steep incline, almost a vertical incidence. Governments have a responsibility. Communities have a responsibility. Individuals have a responsibility. It's a collective response. We do need strong government response, and that's true in every single

country. We need people to be enabled to carry out the actions to keep themselves safe. And it needs to be a comprehensive, a constant consistent approach across not just at the national level but also at subnational levels.

And the response needs to be tailored and adjusted to the need. Even within India, the intensity of circulation is not the same. We do need to see strong government support, and we're doing -- we are also supporting government as much as we can.

Everything that we see in one country can happen in others. So there is a lot of cautionary tales that we've seen in India. But don't forget, we've seen similar trajectories even in the United States. We've seen it in Brazil. We've seen it in the United Kingdom. We see it in South Africa. Many countries have brought the virus under control with a comprehensive response.

India will do the same. We need to stand by them. We need to stand in solidarity, help where we can, donate where we can. There's a GoGivelin (ph) campaign. For those of you who have received your vaccine -- we advise everybody to get their vaccine when they can. But also, maybe consider a donation. All of us can help in every way that we can.

The most important thing where you live, don't let yourself get infected. Take every precaution that you can to keep yourself safe, no matter where you are, wherever you live, and we ask all governments to support people in being able to carry out those actions that are life- saving and keep them safe.

KEILAR: Right now in the U.S., the estimate is that you could be looking at six -- 70 percent of folks vaccinated by the end of July. That's the White House goal. Herd immunity is more like 70 to 90 percent. Does the U.S. need to hit that herd immunity level?

VON KERKHOVE: Well, countries need to vaccinate their populations, you know, starting with those who are most at risk. Our frontline workers, those who are vulnerable. The U.S. is rolling out a lot of vaccines.

But what we really want to see, the U.S. is one population in this world. We need to see vaccination reach those who are most at risk and all countries around the world. We're doing this through COVAX. And what we would like to see is more distribution of vaccines to those who are most at need.

We have frontline workers around the world who do not have access to vaccine. So what we would like to see is countries continue to roll out the vaccines as much as you can, but also donate vaccines through COVAX so that we can -- they can reach those who are most at risk in all parts of the world. And so it's important that some countries reach this population immunity, herd immunity, but we need that in all countries.

KEILAR: Yes. We're all connected. Maria von Kerkhove with the WHO, thank you so much for joining us this morning. VON KERKHOVE: Thanks for having me.

[06:25:00]

KEILAR: Could this picture of one of the jurors in the Derek Chauvin trial jeopardized the guilty verdict? We're going to debate that, next.

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BERMAN: Developing this morning, Derek Chauvin's lawyer has filed a motion for a new trial just two weeks after the ex-Minneapolis police officer was convicted of murdering George Floyd.

Now, this is routine. This is expected. This is what defense lawyers do. And it does not specifically refer to something that has generated some controversy, of late. It's a photo that surfaced online showing one of the jurors wearing a Black Lives Matter hat and shirt that says, "Get your knee off our necks."

That juror, Brandon Mitchell, also participated in last year's march on Washington. Of Washington, which actually has something to do with something we're talking about here. The question is, does it really matter?

Joining us now, CNN legal analysts Paul Callan and Joey Jackson.

Gentlemen, I want to start with the motion. OK?