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House Republicans to Vote on Removing Representative Liz Cheney from Leadership Position; CNN Anchor and Correspondent Jake Tapper Discusses His Newly Published Fictional Book; Rep. Jim Clyburn (D-SC) is Interviewed About GOP Ousting Liz Cheney. Aired 8-8:30a ET

Aired May 12, 2021 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:00:00]

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: Of reckoning is now just minutes away, and Republicans will vote to dump Liz Cheney, who is shaming them on her way out the door.

Also, a pivotal morning for Joe Biden as top leaders from both parties meet at the White House. Can they compromise on fixing America's infrastructure?

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Vaccine lies still being promoted in search results on Facebook-owned Instagram. So what happened to the company's promise to clean that up?

And the cyberattack that's driving up gas prices, how does the U.S. fight the hackers? A former cyber warrior joins us live.

KEILAR: Good morning to viewers here in the U.S. and around the world. It is Wednesday, May 12th. And Liz Cheney defiant as ever as we approach her last hours as a Republican leader. The GOP is about to do what former President Trump wants them to do, remove Cheney from her leadership position. Her offense is telling the truth, and unlike many of her colleagues, refusing to peddle Trump's big lie that the election was stolen. On the House floor last night, she said that silence is not an option.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. LIZ CHENEY, (R-WY): Every one of us who has sworn the oath must act to prevent the unraveling of our democracy. Remaining silent and ignoring the lie emboldens the liar. I will not participate in that. I will not sit back and watch in silence while others lead our party down a path that abandons the rule of law and joins the former president's crusade to undermine our democracy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: By the way, the guy sitting next to Brianna just there, that wasn't me. That was a stand-in. We'll talk to him in just a moment.

Cheney's likely replacement, New York Congresswoman Elise Stefanik, has been blessed by both Trump and Kevin McCarthy, but there is pushback from party conservatives not happy with her more moderate voting record. CNN's Lauren Fox live on Capitol Hill with what we are going to see today. Lauren?

LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: In just a little under an hour, we are going to see the beginning of this Republican Conference meeting when we expect that Liz Cheney, the number three Republican in leadership, will be ousted from that role. Of course, this all coming very quickly over the last several weeks as rank and file Republicans express concern with their leadership about the fact that Cheney refused to stop talking about the facts. She thought that the former president had led the party astray with the big lie.

Now, we expect that this meeting could move fairly quickly, in part because we expect the outcome is all but certain at this point. But last night, on the floor of the House of Representatives, you saw Cheney really going out without making any concessions, without express anything doubt about the position that she has held over the last several months since January 6th. She went to the floor of the House, and with another member, only one other member present in the chamber, she made it clear that she thinks the former president, Donald Trump, is a problem for the future of the Republican Party, that she thinks remaining silent is an exchange for her leadership role. She was not willing to make any further.

And we expect that, again, this meeting is going to move very quickly today, in part because leadership has made their decision that Cheney is no longer going to be able to be in their leadership team. And we expect that Cheney is not going to have any regrets about how that meeting ends today. John?

BERMAN: Lauren Fox on Capitol Hill, we are watching this very closely.

And joining us now, CNN anchor and chief Washington correspondent Jake Tapper. His new novel "The Devil May Dance" available now in bookstores. Get it immediately. It's fantastic. And we'll talk about it in just a second.

So Jake, Tom Friedman writes this morning that this vote that we are going to see in an hour, this is more than about just Republican leadership. He says it's about something fundamental. He says "If House Republicans follow through on their plan to replace Cheney, it will not constitute the end of American democracy as we know it, but there's a real possibility we'll look back on May 12th, 2021, as the beginning of the end." That's a dire warning. What do you think of that?

JAKE TAPPER, CNN CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: I don't think it's the beginning of the end of American democracy, but it is certainly a horrible sign because, as you've reminded everybody, Liz Cheney is more conservative than the woman who is going to replace here. Liz Cheney voted for the Trump policy agenda more reliably than Elise Stefanik did. The only reason she's being purged from leadership is because she won't lie about the election and the insurrection.

And I'd have to go back to 1950 to think of a time where a member of Congress stood strong against an indecency and lies coming from her party, and that's Senator Margaret Chase Smith who gave her declaration of conscience in 1950 against McCarthyism.

[08:05:07]

And most of her party, and a lot of Democrats, too, were pretty quiet and weak about it, and she was ultimately proven correct. And I think ultimately that's what's going to happen with Cheney. I just don't know if it's going to take two years or 20 before the rest of the Republican Party understands that she's right about this. There are empirical rights and wrongs in this world. Lying is a wrong.

KEILAR: That's what I wanted to ask you about. Does it take two or 20 years? Because we've talked to a lot of Republicans who, I guess, are traditional Republicans, but now they're kind of fringe compared to what the party is really about. And they seem to think, OK, redistricting favors Republicans. Possible, likely 2022 victory in the midterms. But then this will course correct. We hear this from some Republicans. And I just wonder if that is really true. If they really have a sense of, look, this may be a chemical change that you don't just retreat from in four years.

TAPPER: I think people -- I think Republicans who are being quiet, who know better and who are just waiting for the party to course correct, are being cowardly, and I think that they are doing a disservice to the American people.

We know that Mitt Romney is not a liberal. We know that Liz Cheney is not a liberal. These people are standing up for facts when it comes to the election, but they are in lockstep on Republican policy. This doesn't have anything to do with policy. It has to do with one man's brittle ego and the fact that he cannot understand or comprehend that he lost and lost handily in 2020.

And it's -- it would be a lot easier, and I think you could accept this, and obviously we're not like members of Congress, it would be a lot easier just to report the news the way a lot of our colleagues on other channels do, which is, he says this, she said that, and now we're moving on, right? But we take a minor risk, we're not -- we don't face voters. We face viewers. And say, no, this is true. There is such a thing at empirical truth. We're not taking a position on taxes or abortion or guns, but on facts. This is true. Members of Congress are elected to do that, and they are taking, too many of them are taking the easy way out. And it's sad.

BERMAN: Jake, what Liz Cheney did last night was go even a step further and say there are consequences --

TAPPER: Yes.

BERMAN: -- to this. Donald Trump's lies. There are consequences to that, but there are consequences to your acquiescence, and she was speaking to all the Republicans not sitting in that chamber, acquiescence to these lies, and that's you risk stoking more violence.

TAPPER: Look, you heard from Elise (ph) Farrah (ph) earlier today talking about the violent threats she had received. And I think a lot of people in news media can identify with that as well. That's what we were all afraid of from the beginning of Trump trying to undermine the election in 2020 to the post-election nonsense. It wasn't about like Joe Biden's feelings. I don't care. But it's about the violence that is possible.

Remember when Gabe Sterling, the election official in Georgia, in early December, was saying stop. Conservative Republican standing up for the integrity of the election in Georgia. He was saying stop. Someone is going to get killed. Flash forward to January 6th, people got killed. It's not just about people who are standing up for facts and truth getting killed. It's also for people who buy into the lie. Look, the people who believe these lies because their politicians share them with them, they are victims in this, too. They are being misled. And a number of them died during the insurrection as well.

KEILAR: I don't know if -- I don't know if they are always viewed as that as they should be.

TAPPER: They are.

KEILAR: Which is they are being misled, and it is the responsibility of elected officials, especially, they know better, to say something, to say the truth.

I do want to ask you about this Twitter exchange that we saw between Republican Congressman Matt Gaetz and between Adam Kinzinger. Matt Gaetz, he put up this, "Tweets that don't age well" in referring to one of Adam Kinzinger's old tweets, and Kinzinger responded, "I'd stay away from aging well tweets." Of course, Kinzinger alluding here to the federal probe into whether Gaetz, among other things, had sex with a minor.

TAPPER: Look, I think it's fair to say that Gaetz walked into that one.

KEILAR: Totally.

TAPPER: But also, the idea that Matt Gaetz is out there, proudly defiant, even though he is under this probe, in any normal world, Matt Gaetz would be in hiding. He should be embarrassed. There's a federal investigation, and even if he's cleared of any wrongdoing, there's a lot of ethical and moral questions about his behavior. Yes?

BERMAN: I didn't mean to interrupt, but I'm going to interrupt for a good cause.

(LAUGHTER)

TAPPER: Please do.

BERMAN: I'm holding in my hands a book, "The Devil May Dance" by one Jake Tapper, and it is a wonderful, wonderful book.

[08:10:02]

TAPPER: And I should note you read an early copy and gave me feedback, which I appreciated.

BERMAN: And I loved it, and I was honored to be given a copy. And it was fantastic even then. I'm sure it's even better now. It's this thriller set in Hollywood in the 1960s, right, and it involves two characters that you introduce in the Hellfire Club, your first fictional book, Charlie and Margaret Marder, who were two terrific characters in modern literature. But beyond them, you now included Frank Sinatra and the Rat Pack, so the chairman of the board. What did this open up for you in terms of your understanding of this era, and what do you want the public to know?

TAPPER: The story was inspired by and is based on a real-life event, which is Sinatra and the Rat Pack, as you know, campaigned their hearts out for JFK in 1960. And Sinatra and Kennedy were close. And Sinatra thought that when Kennedy, President Kennedy came out to California in 1962, he would stay with him. So Sinatra started having all this work done on his compound in Rancho Mirage about two hours outside L.A. He had a helipad built, rooms, phone lines.

But Attorney General Robert Kennedy said I'm investigating organized crime. Sinatra is friends with a lot of members of organized crime, a lot of mobsters. I don't know that I can have the president stay there. That's a real story. That actually happened.

So what I just did was have Charlie and Margaret kind of get blackmailed by Attorney General Kennedy to go out and investigate Frank Sinatra to find out how mobbed up he really was. But the stuff in the book that's fantasy is fun. But the stuff in the book that's real, it just blows my mind.

KEILAR: We have a fun game about the book. But first, I just want to know, how do you find the time to do this, sir? I feel like it was just a couple of years ago I was reading "The Hellfire Club," and we had a pandemic, we had an election, you were rather busy, and yet here we are.

TAPPER: I find that if you write 15 minutes a day at a minimum --

KEILAR: Is that it, really?

TAPPER: Then by the end of the week you have an hour 45, that's four or five pages, and it adds up. But also, I have to say, the pandemic was helpful to the writing because, a, I needed to escape the horrible story of the pandemic, b, I didn't have a commute from April to August because I was broadcasting from home, so that's an hour and a half freed in my day, and, c, I traveled less in 2020 than any other election year in the history of election years because we -- because there was no travel. I did two trips in the entire year. So I did have a little bit more time than normal.

BERMAN: All right, this is "Devil May Dance" word association.

TAPPER: OK.

BERMAN: Favorite Sinatra song.

TAPPER: Oh, that changes every minute, but right now, right this minute it's "Summer Wind."

BERMAN: Dean Martin.

TAPPER: "Dino," Great book by Nick Tosches. You need to read the book "Dino." But read my book first.

BERMAN: The 1950s?

TAPPER: Eisenhower.

KEILAR: The 60s.

TAPPER: Change.

BERMAN: Writer's block.

TAPPER: Bourbon.

(LAUGHTER)

KEILAR: How much? Next book.

TAPPER: 1970s.

BERMAN: Brianna Keilar.

TAPPER: Awesome.

KEILAR: John Berman.

TAPPER: Tasty pudding.

(LAUGHTER)

BERMAN: And yet I am dressed like a man today.

TAPPER: Today. Today.

BERMAN: Today.

(LAUGHTER)

KEILAR: I always enjoy these segments with the both of you. They're so wonderful. They're so wonderful.

TAPPER: I just want to say also, I haven't seen Brianna Keilar in person in like a year-and-a-half.

KEILAR: You've been in my house on my TV, so I doesn't feel that weird.

TAPPER: It's so exciting to see you in person.

KEILAR: This is awesome to see you in person. Hi, Jake. Love to see you.

TAPPER: Hi, Brianna.

KEILAR: OK, so you have got to check this out, because it is very good. "The Devil May Dance" available now in bookstores. Jake Tapper, thank you for coming on.

TAPPER: Thanks, Brianna, thanks, John.

BERMAN: Congratulations.

TAPPER: Thanks, buddy.

KEILAR: House Republicans are meeting here in less than an hour to decide Liz Cheney's fate as party leader. Reaction from a top Democrat, next.

BERMAN: Plus, how do we stop the hacking attacks that have cost Americans hundreds of millions of dollars just this year? And new questions about Facebook's promise to police anti-vax content.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:17:52]

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Republicans are about to dump Liz Cheney from her House leadership position. They're gathering for the secret ballot vote that could begin in less than an hour. Cheney is not backing down. This is what she said overnight on the House floor.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. LIZ CHENEY (R-WY): Remaining silent and ignoring the lie emboldens the liar. I will not participate in that. I will not sit back and watch in silence while others lead our party down a path that abandons the rule of law and joins the former president's crusade to undermine our democracy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: Joining us now, Congressman Jim Clyburn of South Carolina. He serves as the majority whip in the House.

Congressman, I know you don't agree with Liz Cheney on almost anything when it comes to policy. But what does this moment -- she's about to lose her job for telling the truth. What does this moment mean, not just for Republicans, but for the country?

REP. JAMES CLYBURN (D-SC): Well, thank you very much for having me this morning.

I think it's a sad day for us to be witnessing what is happening to what I call an implosion within the Republican Party. You know, every time I think about Donald Trump coming down that escalator, I saw him looking back. I see it as a devolution taking place in the Republican Party.

And that is a sad, sad thing to occur. My parents were Republicans. They were members of the party of Lincoln. They honored that. They honored my decision to be a Democrat when I came out of college.

But to see this kind of canceling of thought, not culture, cancel culture, but they are canceling thought, independence. I don't understand how anyone that could adhere to the herd mentality that seems to be taking over in the Republican Party.

[08:20:02]

It has devolved into a cult.

BERMAN: Let me ask you this. You're a guy known as a member of Congress who likes to get things done. You know, not making the perfect the enemy of the good.

How does the state of the Republican Party affect your ability to get things done? Does it make it harder? Does it make it easier?

CLYBURN: Well, I think it's harder when you don't give the other side as being able to differentiate truth from fiction.

BERMAN: Yeah. I can see how that makes a negotiation rather --

CLYBURN: I'm sorry?

BERMAN: I mean, I can see how that makes a negotiation more difficult, right?

Congressman, can you hear me?

I think Congressman Clyburn lost communications with us. We're going to take a quick break. Hopefully we'll get him back and finish this discussion.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BERMAN: We're back with Congressman Jim Clyburn, the House majority whip.

Sorry for the technical difficulties.

[08:25:01]

You know, Congressman, you surprise someday people over the weekend when you suggested that in the discussions, the discussions about police reform, that you might be willing to vote for a package that doesn't include changes on qualified immunity, in other words, people's ability to sue police officers. You said you might be willing to support a package without that.

Why do you feel it's important for Democrats to maybe accept less than everything they might want, and what's the current status of the negotiations?

CLYBURN: Well, that's not exactly what I said. I do believe, and I've said this a thousand times, that what is happening with qualified immunity is it's being treated as absolute immunity. And that's not what it says. I've consulted the Black's Law Dictionary on the word qualified, and it's limited, and it is restricted, and that's what I believe we ought to do.

We ought to have a discussion about what qualified really means. And all I said was, I don't believe that if the definition that I have is different than the definition someone else has, then that ought to be detrimental to the bill. So this whole notion that we ought not make any kind of adjustments to the notion of qualified immunity, I think is something we ought to really take the heat -- take to heart.

BERMAN: So, Congressman, you served as the chairman of the Select Subcommittee on Coronavirus. And you had previously announced an investigation into Emergent BioSolution. That's the facility that botched the 15 million doses of the Johnson & Johnson vaccine back in April. So, what have you learned from this investigation?

CLYBURN: Well, we are going to continue that investigation. We now have a joint investigation going on between my select subcommittee and the full committee led by Carolyn Maloney. And we are going to really try to get to the root of this.

A lot of things seem to be untoward taking place here. We all know they had to throw out 15 million or so vaccines because it was contaminated. We also know that some of the vaccines they have dumped are now being checked to make sure that they aren't contaminated. We also know that the -- there's some (INAUDIBLE) that insider trading taking place. Mr. Kramer and Mr. El-Hibri, (AUDIO GAP) is the way he announces his name, they all made millions in stock transactions while they seem to be hiding stuff from the public.

So we want to make sure that no laws were broken. Certainly, we don't know that yet until there is an investigation, but that's what we're going to do. Next week, or the 19th, I think they will be coming before the subcommittee to answer some questions.

BERMAN: Congressman Jim Clyburn, we appreciate your patience. We appreciate you joining us this morning. Thank you, sir.

CLYBURN: Thank you.

BERMAN: So, right now, a lot of people may have questions about coronavirus vaccines but be careful where you look for answers. Instagram is still routinely recommending anti-vaccine accounts to potentially millions of users. This as parent company Facebook promised to step up efforts to fight misinformation.

CNN's Donie O'Sullivan all over this story and joins us now.

Donie, what's going on here?

DONIE O'SULLIVAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hey, John.

Yeah. So, as you mentioned, more people than ever now are looking for information about the vaccine, particularly as we've seen it's now approved for younger teenagers. But take a look at what's happening when you search for vaccines on Instagram. Take a look at these tweets from Josselyn Cook (ph), who is a great reporter at "The Huffington Post" who pointed this out.

Among the top searchers, among the accounts that are being recommended, moms against vaccines. The other side of vaccines.

John, this is not in some dark corner of the Internet, of Facebook, of Instagram. This is actually what Instagram is recommending to millions potentially of its users. And worse again, I want to show you a second one of Josselyn's tweets. What happens when you click into an account and follow one of these anti-vax accounts. Instagram starts recommending you follow more anti-vax accounts.

So, this company, Facebook, which owns Instagram, is recommending to users that they go follow more anti-vax accounts. Now, why does all of this matter? Instagram last night when we raised this issue with them, they came back and they tweeted a statement to her and they said that these accounts have now been banned and that they shouldn't have been searchable.

But even as I sat with John Avlon this morning, there's more accounts back up there. Anti-vax accounts, even if you type in vaccines this morning.

Why does this all matter? Should people be getting their vaccine information or misinformation from Instagram in the first place?