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Giuliani Argues He Wasn't Literally Calling For Insurrection; Biden Calls For Ceasefire As Impatience Grows In Congress; Biden Heads To Michigan As He Faces Economic Headwinds. Aired 7:30-8a ET
Aired May 18, 2021 - 07:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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[07:32:40]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RUDY GIULIANI, FORMER TRUMP ATTORNEY: If they're right, a lot of them will go to jail. So let's have trial by combat.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Trial by combat. So, lawyers for Rudy Giuliani argue in a new court filing overnight that Giuliani wasn't literally advocating for an insurrection when he said that to Trump supporters on January sixth -- like, just a little bit before the actual insurrection, a little bit before the actual combat. They say his words were only hyperbolic.
The assertion comes in response to a lawsuit filed by Congressman Eric Swalwell.
Joining me now to discuss, CNN legal analyst and criminal defense attorney Joey Jackson. And, CNN legal analyst and former prosecutor Paul Callan.
Gentlemen, let me stipulate that the number of legal issues facing Rudy Giuliani are so many and so complicated it's hard to space it out and unwind them. We're going to try.
First, to this one, Joey -- the argument overnight From Giuliani's lawyers that trial by combat didn't mean combat.
JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Words don't matter. Why should they matter? Listen, the reality is this. Words matter, they matter a lot, and they're meaningful.
And when you hold a position of authority, a position of trust, a position of respect, you have to watch what you say. And then when you say it you cannot then say well, do not listen or do not believe, right, what you just heard.
The reality is that we know what trial by combat means. We know within the context in which it was used. We know that words do matter. We know that the court has opined that when you say something that would cause immediate, imminent, lawless action that it's problematic and it's not lawful.
And so, I don't buy it at all. Obviously, he's spinning, he's moving, he's bopping, and he's weaving. But you know what? There are consequences to what you say. Sir, accept those consequences and stop trying to finagle out of it.
PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY, FORMER PROSECUTOR: You know, John, once I sat in a Joey Jackson summation was in a murder case. And his words were inflammatory in that courtroom. He paced around the courtroom saying all kinds of inflammatory things to the jury. And you know what he was asking for in the end? An acquittal for his client in a court of law.
Nobody tried to place Joey Jackson under arrest. And to say that a lawyer -- even Giuliani -- by using the words trial by combat -- and by the way, in other parts of that speech, he talks about gathering evidence. So it's clear that his context was not to make these individuals march and take over the Capitol, but it was in the context for him of trial by combat in a courtroom.
[07:35:04]
JACKSON: Here's the distinction.
CALLAN: Just like this -- just like this segment. This would be television by combat.
JACKSON: Here is the distinction, OK? Here's what we do. As lawyers, what we do is we analogize. We say things are similar and we say things are different.
When I'm in a courtroom I'm arguing to a jury. Guess what? They're sitting there and hopefully, they're listening to what I have to say. They're not in an uproar. They're not yelling, they're not screaming.
There's not people who are milling about looking to take someone's head on a stick. There are not people who are there who are marching to the Capitol, who are disagreeing with the result of an election and --
CALLAN: Joey, I was -- Joey, I was there at the end of that summation and that jury was ready to take somebody's head off.
BERMAN: But literally, Paul, the jury --
CALLAN: So it was a good summation.
BERMAN: The jury didn't have bear mace.
JACKSON: Yes.
BERMAN: The jury didn't have bear mace.
CALLAN: Yes. BERMAN: You're dealing with a different group of people here.
CALLAN: Yes, yes, that's quite true. But I think when we're going to criminalize the use of words we have to be very careful about it.
And the Supreme Court has said that you can criminalize the use of words in the Brandenburg case, but they said it has to be clear that you're immediately inciting violence. And by the way, the Brandenburg case involved a Ku Klux Klan rally where incendiary rhetoric was used. There was an arrest. And you know what, that got thrown out of court.
Now, I don't think that Giuliani's statement is the same thing as a Ku Klux Klan person threatening to --
JACKSON: John, just one last point.
BERMAN: Let me just jump -- let me just jump in here because as I said, there are so many issues surrounding the walking human liability that is Rudy Giuliani.
JACKSON: Yes.
BERMAN: I want to cover one other thing because his lawyers are also arguing, Joey, that the search warrant executed on his apartment and on his office --
JACKSON: Yes.
BERMAN: -- not legal.
JACKSON: Yes.
BERMAN: Your view?
JACKSON: Look, the bottom line, John, is this. Is that as lawyers we challenge things and we don't want the government to have unfettered intrusion. And so, therefore, his lawyers -- I would always argue that you have to hold the government to its paces. We're not just going to accept at face value any type of warrant that's issued.
However, let's understand where we are, John -- the rules of engagement here. What are those rules? We're not beyond a reasonable doubt. We're not having a unanimous verdict.
We're having the government inquire whether or not there's reason to believe that a crime was committed and Giuliani committed it. It's probable cause. It's a lot standard.
And so, very quickly, in order to get that warrant thrown out, what do you have to demonstrate? That the underlying affidavit was false. That the statements were false. That they were intentionally false or recklessly false. And that those statements, John, were the basis that motivated and led to the application and otherwise, the issuance of the warrant. That's a very high bar.
CALLAN: More inflammatory rhetoric by my friend Joey Jackson. What you're leaving out, of course, is that here's what the prosecutors did in this case and what Giuliani's lawyers are saying as to why the warrant should be thrown out.
There was a prior warrant that was secretly obtained and the information in that warrant -- and by the way, what they have done is they have seized his iCloud account. Now, anybody who handles e-mail knows that these iCloud accounts include pictures -- maybe family pictures, maybe client pictures -- documents regarding, if you're an attorney, your clients, as well as e-mail. All of your e-mail.
So the government seizes all of that and then they bring in what they call a taint team. So they're saying well, we're not going to look at it all. We'll just look at certain parts of it, all right?
Well, let me ask you this, John. If you hired a lawyer and you knew that the government had been searching every communication that he had with his attorneys, that lawyer wouldn't get many additional attorneys. And that's why the right to counsel is so important.
And if the government is going to go into an iCloud account and seize that kind of information, they better have rock-solid reasons to do so --
JACKSON: Smoke and mirrors.
CALLAN: -- and I haven't seen it.
JACKSON: Smoke and mirrors.
CALLAN: All I've -- that's a good point. All I've seen is smoke and mirrors --
JACKSON: Right.
CALLAN: -- so far. I'm looking for hard evidence, Joey Jackson.
JACKSON: So let's talk about -- let's talk about the hard evidence.
CALLAN: Where is the hard evidence?
JACKSON: Let's talk about what happens with that. How you get hard evidence, John is that you examine the underlying basis for what's in the iCloud.
We start with the premise that no person is above the law. Don't tell me just because you're the president's counsel that I can't look and examine your information. There's a process for that. You alluded to it, Mr. Callan.
It's called the taint teams. And what they do is they segregate out that information that's not relevant to the underlying application. That information that doesn't otherwise implicate you in wrongdoing. And what they do with that information if you engaged in wrongdoing, is they prosecute you. Just like you, Mr. Giuliani, prosecuted other people.
CALLAN: So just like -- so, Joey --
JACKSON: You, sir, engaged in the same kind of tactics.
CALLAN: -- you have full faith in the government.
JACKSON: I do not.
CALLAN: But their taint team, if they were looking at your iCloud account --
JACKSON: Right.
CALLAN: -- you're not worried at all.
JACKSON: I'm always worried.
CALLAN: Are you worried? Are you a little worried?
JACKSON: I'm always worried.
CALLAN: Are you worried about your clients? Are you worried about your clients? That's what I want to know.
JACKSON: Which is why --
CALLAN: You have hundreds of clients.
JACKSON: Wait, wait, wait -- which is why you appoint a special master to evaluate and review and to segregate out that information that's not relevant to the underlying prosecution.
BERMAN: All right, take the rest outside Joey Jackson --
JACKSON: We're going now.
BERMAN: -- Paul Callan.
And I will only leave you with this one thing. There are serious questions about how much of actual lawyering Rudy Giuliani was doing here.
[07:40:04]
JACKSON: Right.
BERMAN: So how much of his stuff should be covered in that. But that's for next time when we bring this fight back on television.
New video from the West Bank where Palestinian protesters are facing off with Israeli forces. Is a ceasefire, like President Biden wants, even a possibility?
BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: And a massive fuel pipeline is back online but it still may take you some time to find gas.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) KEILAR: Now, here are five things to know to start your new day.
The Colonial Pipeline is now fully operational. That's the good news. But the supply chain is still catching up. Pipeline officials say substantial progress is being made but not in Washington, D.C. -- right here -- where outages are reported at 73 percent of gas stations. A high percentage of outages also reported in North Carolina, South Carolina, and Georgia.
[07:45:08]
BERMAN: The Arkansas Department of Transportation employee responsible for inspecting a key bridge over the Mississippi River has been fired. Authorities determined the person failed to catch a crack in the bridge. They say drone video showed evidence of the fracture two years ago.
KEILAR: And we're expected to learn today the findings of the investigation into last month's shooting death of Andrew Brown, Jr. by sheriff's deputies in North Carolina. District attorney Andrew Womble will reveal the results of a state investigation later this morning. A source tells CNN that Brown's family has not received any advance information about what the D.A. will announce.
BERMAN: A key abortion rights case is going to the Supreme Court. The court will take up a case concerning a controversial Mississippi law that bans most abortions after 15 weeks. This will bring a potentially major challenge to Roe versus Wade in front of the majority- conservative court.
KEILAR: And Kentucky Derby winner Medina Spirit will not be running in the Belmont Stakes, the third and final leg of horse racing's Triple Crown. The New York Racing Association has suspended the horse's trainer, Bob Baffert, pending an investigation into the Derby champ's failed post-race drug test.
BERMAN: All right. Just into CNN, we're now seeing stunning pictures out of Bethlehem. This was moments ago. Pro-Palestinian protesters facing off with Israeli forces in the West Bank. This, as President Biden is calling for a ceasefire.
Joining us now, Ambassador Dennis Ross, former Middle East peace envoy who has served in five presidential administrations.
Ambassador, I don't know if you can see those pictures that we're looking at right there from Bethlehem, but it's the very thing that I think concerns most diplomats and most experts in the region. Yes, there's been a shooting war between Israel and Hamas over Gaza over the last week or so, but now this appears to be spilling out visibly and violently into other areas.
What are your concerns when you see this?
DENNIS ROSS, FORMER MIDDLE EAST PEACE ENVOY WHO SERVED IN FIVE PRESIDENTIAL ADMINISTRATIONS, DISTINGUISHED FELLOW, THE WASHINGTON INSTITUTE FOR NEAR EAST POLICY (via Skype): Well, I think whenever you see something like this, what it's demonstrating is that the longer the conflict goes on the greater potential for it spreading, the harder to contain it. The harder, basically, to put the genie back in the bottle.
KEILAR: So it's harder to put the genie back in the bottle. It's obviously hard to wind this down.
And you're someone who has participated in negotiations during past violent flare-ups and battles between the two sides here. What needs to be done? What steps need to be taken?
ROSS: Look, the critical problem right now is that on the Israeli side they want to be sure that they've reestablished deterrence with Hamas because Hamas is (audio gap). And the challenge, therefore, I think for us with the Israelis is to define what's the endpoint, what's the strategic objective? How do you know when you've done enough?
Hamas, at this point, would be probably quite happy to settle for a ceasefire because it thinks it's demonstrated something. It inflicted some pain on the Israelis and it's not unhappy to see what's going on on the West Bank. It's been encouraging that from day one.
That said, Hamas has lost a lot of its rocket capabilities. It's lost a lot of its infrastructure, a lot of the tunneling. And the destruction in Gaza is coming to the point where fuel supplies are low, electricity is low. The challenges there are going to be pretty profound.
So Hamas probably wants this to end pretty soon. My guess is the Israelis do as well. I think the key for us right now is to be working with the Egyptians because they are the ones who have the ability to mediate between Hamas and Israel. It would be good to see an Israeli delegation go to Cairo because then you'd know you'd have some kind of proximity talks going on that the Egyptians are brokering. I think that's what I would be looking for next and that's what I would be trying to promote.
BERMAN: Let's talk about what the Biden administration is doing and saying here. We understand in a conversation between President Biden and Prime Minister Netanyahu, he supported -- the president did -- calls for a ceasefire, which is very different than demanding it. It doesn't felt yet like heavy-handed pressure.
What's the difference, and why?
ROSS: Well, I think the difference is that basically when you call for it it's not an insistence. But what it reflects is that the president really genuinely believes -- and I think it's understandable -- Israeli has the right to defend itself.
Israel withdrew from Gaza. When it withdrew from Gaza in 2005 it didn't impose an embargo or a quarantine. It didn't do that until Hamas launched a coup -- carried out a coup in 2007. So Israel withdraws from a territory and now it's taking more than 3,000 rockets from that territory. So I think the president believes, quite legitimately, Israel has the right of self-defense.
[07:50:00]
At the same time, I think he's probably saying when he says in public he would support a ceasefire you can assume that in his conversations with the prime minister he's asking the question -- OK, look, Mr. Prime Minister, I understand you've got the right of self-defense. I also understand there comes a point where you've got to find a way to bring this to an end. What is your endpoint? How do you know when you've done enough? And what's the point at which when you continue there is diminishing returns?
I suspect the fact that you have this public statement about supporting a ceasefire but not demanding it, it reflects a private conversation along the lines I just described.
KEILAR: Here in -- here in the U.S. Democrats -- I mean, this relationship between Israel and the U.S. is so significant but you're seeing a little bit of it being frayed. Democrats are increasingly calling out Israel. You're hearing this from Democrats like Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and others. She has said this isn't an apartheid state. That the Palestinians aren't an apartheid state.
Do you agree with any points that sect of Democrats are making? And how does that affect Israeli's ability to act here?
ROSS: Well, it certainly shows that there is some dissidence within the Democratic Party. It is pretty remarkable that one doesn't hear them say anything about Hamas rockets. I mean, it's -- here is Israel.
As I said, it withdrew from Gaza and Hamas never stopped efforts to attack it even after it withdrew. Now it fires rockets and it's not at all clear with those who are criticizing what it would have Israel do in response to those rockets.
Now at the same time, obviously, there are -- there are questions about Israeli policies -- there were questions about Israeli policies in Jerusalem. There's questions about Israeli approaches to the Palestinians. What I would like to see if you're raising questions or criticisms of Israel, why isn't there any criticism of the other side and should there not be accountability on both sides, not just on the Israelis?
KEILAR: Ambassador Ross, it's always wonderful to have your perspective. Thank you so much for being with us today.
ROSS: My pleasure.
KEILAR: Coming up, a stunning admission and it's caught on tape. You know all those Republican efforts to restrict voting access across the country? Well, you won't believe where they're really coming from or why. The video that you just have to see, straight ahead.
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[07:56:30] KEILAR: President Biden heading to Michigan today to visit a Ford electric vehicle plant as he pushes his infrastructure and green energy plan. The president wants to bring the economy from relief to recovery but a labor shortage could mean trouble for those plans.
CNN's Jeff Zeleny is live for us in Detroit with more. Jeff, good morning.
JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Hey, good morning, Brianna.
You could feel the optimism as the country continues to move beyond the pandemic. But there also are warning signs in the economy and they're flashing "now hiring."
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How are we doing on reservations today?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We're doing good. We're on schedule.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So, are we full?
ZELENY (voice-over): At the Brown Iron Brewhouse, business is booming or starting to after a punishing year with a pandemic. But one day each week the dining room is dark --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How's everything so far? Good?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Very good.
ZELENY (voice-over): -- because Patti Eisenbraun has no other choice.
PATTI EISENBRAUN, CO-OWNER, BROWN IRON BREWHOUSE: It's not a lack of customers, it's purely for staffing reasons. I had 120 people before the pandemic. I'm down to 70. I need immediate hire for 30 people.
ZELENY (voice-over): It's a stark warning sign in the economy. A labor shortage facing frustrated business owners here in Michigan and across the country. "Now hiring" signs, from restaurants to manufacturing, hang most everywhere you look.
EISENBRAUN: We're trying everything we can. There's just not the people out there right now.
ZELENY (voice-over): Just as President Biden's fortunes were tied to tackling coronavirus, so too are they linked to an economic recovery. The rest of his presidency will likely rise or fall on the strength of that rebound.
REP. DEBBIE DINGELL (D-MI): Yes, he will be judged on how the economy is doing, as will all of us. So our job is to work together and keep and the economy strong.
ZELENY (voice-over): Michigan Congresswoman Debbie Dingell says the labor shortage is very real as are its root causes, like childcare concerns, lingering COVID fears, and above all, women leaving the workforce in droves.
ZELENY (on camera): Optimistic about the economy or too soon to say?
DINGELL: I'm going to choose to be optimistic and it's my responsibility and everybody else's to make sure we deliver on that optimism.
ZELENY (voice-over): And delivering on that optimism means fighting the unmistakable economic headwinds, many of which revolve around rebuilding America's vanishing workforce.
MARGIE MARTIN, UNEMPLOYMENT SPECIALIST, SER METRO-DETROIT: We have tons of jobs. We have more jobs than folks.
ZELENY (voice-over): Margie Martin is an employment specialist matching workers to jobs. She's on the frontlines of a question hanging over the president's economic agenda -- are unemployment checks keeping potential employees on the sidelines?
MARTIN: I don't think so. In my own personal experience, there's other issues that doesn't allow someone to get employment. Like a single mom doesn't have a support system. All her kids are at home.
ZELENY (voice-over): Just north of Detroit in Sterling Heights, Mayor Michael Taylor is a Republican who's been watching the new president closely. When we first met him last fall he told us he was supporting Biden.
MAYOR MICHAEL TAYLOR (R), STERLING HEIGHTS, MICHIGAN: I can't wait to cast my vote to get Donald Trump out of office.
ZELENY (on camera): So how are things going?
TAYLOR: Well, I'm still very happy with my decision.
ZELENY (voice-over): But Taylor said he believes unemployment assistance should not be extended so more people return to work.
TAYLOR: That's the number one concern I've heard from business owners.
ZELENY (voice-over): Back at the Brewhouse, Eisenbraun is offering a bounty for employees who bring in new workers. She also offers healthcare and a 401(k) and dismisses those who blame all business owners for the labor crunch.
EISENBRAUN: Well, I think that the misconception that I see from the politicians is that the reason why people aren't going back to work is that the jobs aren't worth it.
