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Interview with Maricopa County Recorder on Lies being Spread about Voter Databases Concerning the 2020 Presidential Election; Uncovered Video Reveals Efforts to Pass Legislation in States Making Voting More Difficult; New York to Lift Mask, Social Distancing Mandates for Vaccinated. Aired 8-8:30a ET

Aired May 18, 2021 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

PATTI EISENBRAUN, CO-OWNER, BROWN IRON BREWHOUSE: Misconception that I see from the politicians is that the reason why people aren't going back to work is that the jobs are worth it. These are low paying jobs. But they aren't.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: In addition to those benefits, she is starting there at the brew house by paying $16 an hour. And that bounty she talked about, an employee can get $1,250 if they recruit a friend or someone they know to come work at the Brewhouse. So certainly a good opportunity there. But the labor shortage is such a key part of rebuilding this economy, John.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: So, Jeff, I know the president is also going to Dearborn today which has a huge Arab American population. And I do understand there are going to be some protests there on the White House policy toward the Middle East conflict.

ZELENY: John, we are learning that, in fact, there have been protests here throughout the weekend. A very long one in Dearborn on Sunday where thousands of Palestinian Americans protested the White House's, what they view as silence in the Middle East. They believe the president should take a much stronger stance against Israel. So this certainly is something that the president is stepping into. Of course, this trip, he's coming here to visit the Ford Motor Company to tour a new electric vehicle, the Ford Lightning. This has been planned for weeks, but of course, the rising conflict in the Middle East certainly puts some more tension on the president's trip here.

BERMAN: Jeff Zeleny, great to see you there. Thank you so much for your reporting.

NEW DAY continues right now.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, I'm Brianna Keilar alongside John Berman. On this NEW DAY, a Republican showdown in Arizona between those still pushing a recount of last year's election and those finally fed up with the big lie. Plus, dark money rigging the system and making it harder to vote, a Republican operative brags on camera about how easy it is.

BERMAN: They are skeptical believers standing against America's push to vaccinate. We'll ask the Reverend Franklin Graham why so many evangelicals remain wary of getting the shot.

And a major crackdown on mid-air meltdowns, new sky-high fines for people who don't behave on planes.

KEILAR: Good morning to viewers here in the United States and around the world. It is Tuesday, May 18th. The Republican-led board of supervisors in Arizona's Maricopa County is now demanding an end to the election audit pushed by the state and fueled by former President Trump's big lie that the election was stolen. The board chairman calling it a grift disguised as an audit.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JACK SELLERS, MARICOPA COUNTY CHAIRMAN: This board is done explaining anything to these people who are playing investigator with our constituents' ballots and equipment paid for with real people's tax dollars.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: Again, that man, a Republican. This comes after President Trump poured fuel on the fire with this demonstrably false statement that, quote, "The entire database of Maricopa County in Arizona has been deleted!" One Arizona Republican responded saying, quote, "Wow, this is unhinged. I'm literally looking at our voter registration database on my other screen right now. We can't indulge these insane lies any longer as a party, as a state, as a country."

That Arizona official joins me now, Maricopa County Recorder Stephen Richer. He runs Maricopa County's election department and is a longtime Republican. Thanks so much for being with us, Recorder. You weren't speaking out. You weren't really going public with this, but you are now because you say you were exasperated. Exasperated at what?

STEPHEN RICHER, (R) MARICOPA COUNTY RECORDER: Yes, thanks John, for having me on. I would imagine I'm the first county recorder you've had on your show probably, but such are the times.

It was one thing with the audit when they were looking at U.V. lights and they were looking for bamboo fibers in the paper, and they were using the wrong color pens. But when they just accused us too many times of breaking the law, they defamed our good employees too many times, they've defamed the hardworking people here, and we're humans. We're all humans, and we have our limits.

And so the board of supervisors and I, almost all of whom are Republican, said enough is enough. And you heard that from Chairman Sellers.

BERMAN: You say enough is enough. You listed some of the things, whether it be checking for bamboo, using the ultraviolet light. But there's other things on this list -- accusations of ballots flown in from South Korea. Allegations, literally, that chickens ate some of the ballots and then the chickens were incinerated, I guess. What are some of the other crazy things that are being thrown out?

RICHER: I mean, that chickens one is probably pretty top of the charts, but we still hear about Hugo Chavez.

[08:05:05]

The damage done against Dominion is irrevocable and will never be un- rung. And I just hear these things time after time, and some Republicans approach this by saying, OK, we'll continue looking into it for the 15th time. I would encourage them to say, no, that's wrong. That's a lie. I'm sorry you have been lied to, but it's a lie.

BERMAN: Lied to by whom?

RICHER: By anyone who is perpetuating this -- the big lie, which certainly, Sidney Powell I think was the progenitor of the Dominion claims.

BERMAN: Who else? You called one of them unhinged.

RICHER: Yes, what the president said in his latest news release was, it was just dumbfounding, because I was sitting there, and I said it was pretty much tantamount to saying that the pencil that was sitting in front of my desk, right in front of me, does not exist. And I got that letter from him from a supporter who said, Stephen, what gives? Why are you deleting files? And this person's good judgment means a lot to me. And so I was just tired, because how do you respond to that? Well, the former president of the United States just said that. Well, I'm sorry, but that's just not true, and I'm looking at it right now.

BERMAN: What do you think is driving these lies? I guess I'm not necessarily asking you to get into the former president's head, but all these other people including the Republicans in your own state government who are pushing these lies.

RICHER: Yes, I think it's a first mover problem. And I think there's a lot of fear that if you stand out against this, you will lose your career as a Republican politician. I think I have certainly decided that that's not as important to me as speaking the truth. I think the board of supervisors and the rest of the county government has made that same decision.

But look, a lot of these state Republican senators, they don't believe a single thing of this. But they get lots of angry emails and they get lots of angry calls who have been listening to this by national figures, and they feel like they have to respond to it.

BERMAN: Now, Sellers called this a grift disguise as an audit. And "audit" should always be in air quotes here when we talk about what's actually going on inside that room. But what do you want to see happen now? What are you asking for today and going forward with how this audit in air quotes is treated?

RICHER: Thanks for giving me an ask. I appreciate that.

Two things. First, stop defaming my employees. Stop saying we broke the law without any evidence, and stop besmirching all the hard work that they have put in.

The second thing would be, come on out, Republicans. The water is warm. We'll get out here first, and I'm happy to take some of the flak. But now is the time, because if we don't push back against this now, we're going to be doing this all the way through 2022 and possibly through 2024 so long as some of these figures stay in national politics.

And the irony that I pointed out is that many of these local politicians who claim there was widespread fraud in Arizona's elections are signing up to run for reelection in 2022 or signing up to run for even higher office. And it's just -- your actions speak louder than your words if you're going to invest your time and money, you clearly believe in Arizona's elections. So stop peddling these lies just for donations.

BERMAN: Very last question. When this audit, when they do release whatever they're going to release, how should we look at their results?

RICHER: Well, I don't know what their goal is here, because when you hire somebody -- when you hire a company whose CEO is somebody who believes in the Hugo Chavez theory that he rigged American elections, just a very large percentage of the Arizona population isn't going to buy any of it. So I don't know who this is helping at this point, but it's a black eye for Arizona.

BERMAN: Maricopa County Recorder Stephen Richer, I appreciate you joining us. Just one correction. We'll have county recorders on from all over the country. We love county recorders. We think you are the heroes of this last election. We really appreciate the work you're doing, and we applaud the courage it takes to stand up and just do your job. And you want to be on note. You want to be doing this in the background. I think you'd like everyone not to know your name. That's what you said before.

RICHER: And John, I apologize for that. Good for you guys. Thank you very much.

But look, I ran under the slogan, make the recorder's office boring again. And prior to Friday, I had not taken a single interview, and that was really my aspiration was to quietly, humbly go about doing an administrative role. But like I said, we're human. We have our limits. This is the same story going on in Georgia.

[08:10:01]

BERMAN: We'll let you get back to boring if you can. Stephen Richer, thanks for joining us this morning. I appreciate it.

RICHER: Thank you so much. KEILAR: But he's doing -- he and other recorders and other officials

like him, they are doing the hard work to make sure that these elections run smoothly. I think that was one of the things that looking into the big lie has revealed, all these people just toiling away behind the scenes doing the hard and necessary work to make elections work.

BERMAN: And he's just calling out crazy. He's just had enough. What he is seeing is crazy, and he just can't take it anymore. He was laughing about it this morning, but I just think that's because he can't cry or shout anymore.

KEILAR: Yes. And if you are the one staring at the database when you're looking at the tweet that says it's been erased, what do you do? You have to speak up. It's imperative that even, quote/unquote, boring officials who want to remain boring and anonymous do that. That was a great interview, John. Thank you.

BERMAN: And by the way, county recorders, we know they can party. So I would not call any of them boring.

(LAUGHTER)

KEILAR: I have no doubt, no doubt.

A conservative dark money group has apparently given up the game, admitting in leaked tapes that it not only encourages bills that discourage voting, it makes them look like grassroots efforts, and in some cases even writes the bills for states themselves. John Avlon joins us with our "Reality Check."

JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Democracy is supposed to be government of the people, especially rule of the majority expressed in free and fair elections. But the right to vote has become the fight to vote. Democrats backing bills that can make it easier for all citizens to vote while Republicans are pushing bills in at least 45 states that would make it harder to vote, already signed into law in battlegrounds like Georgia, Florida, Arizona, and Iowa. And all of this is being done to secure partisan power while trying to dignify the big lie.

It's called conspiracy boot-strapping -- create panic, and then pass laws to address the phantom menace. But it just doesn't happen on its own. Don't buy the bull that this is all grassroots. And here's proof caught on tape.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We're working with the state legislatures to make sure they have all of the information they need to draft the bills. In some cases, we actually draft them for them, or we have a sentinel on our behalf give them the model legislation so it has that grassroots, from the bottom up type of vibe.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AVLON: Yes, that grassroots kind of vibe. That's Heritage Action Head Jessica Anderson, a Trump administration alum, speaking at a donor retreat this past April. This video obtained by CNN and first published by "Mother Jones" with the watchdog group Documented pulls the curtain back on how dark money tries to rig systems for partisan gain. Listen to how Anderson described the efforts in Iowa.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Iowa was the first state that we got to work in. And we did it quickly and we did it quietly. We helped draft the bills. We made sure activists were calling the state legislators, getting support, showing up at their public hearings, giving testimony. Little fanfare. Honestly, nobody even noticed. My team looked at each other and we were like, it can't be that easy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AVLON: That's a stunning admission we're noticing now. When CNN reached out to the Iowa governor's office for comment, they pointed to an article in "The Des Moines Register" where House Speaker Pat Grassley denied the allegation, saying "They're either lying to impress their donors or they're in a situation where they are potentially in violation of the House ethics rules." Heritage Action did not deny the accuracy of the videos, instead sending a comment to CNN that reads, in part, "Heritage Action is proud of our work to make it easier to vote and harder to cheat." Bizzarro world. Heritage Foundation's co-founder Paul Weyrich was more honest back in 1980.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't want everybody to vote. Elections are not won by a majority of people. They never have been from the beginning of our country, and they are not now. As a matter of fact, our leverage in the elections, quite candidly, goes up as the voting populous goes down.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AVLON: And it's in continuance of that admission that Heritage keeps an election fraud database showing more than 1,300 cases going back decades, which is actually evidence that voter fraud is not a massive problem in America, contrary to Trump's claims of millions of fraudulent ballots. And get this. That database shows only one convicted case of voter fraud in the 2020 general election. There is to date no mention of a Pennsylvania man who tried to cast his ballot in his dead mother's name for Donald Trump, confessing that he'd listened to too much propaganda. Or the Colorado man arrested for allegedly murdering his wife, who according to an affidavit, admitted to filling out her absentee ballot for Trump because, quote, I figured all the other guys are cheating.

But despite all this, the big lie marches on, backed by big money pushing for more bills that make it harder to vote in more states, undermining democracy by design.

And that's your "Reality Check." BERMAN: I'm glad you brought up the Heritage database, because it

ends up being a really interesting resource for the exact opposite reason that Heritage thinks it is. It's been interesting to see the last few months. Thanks so much for that.

AVLON: Take care.

[08:15:00]

BERMAN: Up next, the fast-changing rules on masks in America. Major cities lifting mandates and much more.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: Plus, why are so many evangelicals hesitant to get the COVID vaccine? We'll have the Reverend Franklin Graham joining us live.

And the FAA's tough new stance against unruly passengers. Why you'll want to behave in the air or else.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BERMAN: New York City is lifting its mask mandate for vaccinated people tomorrow. That is the same day that New York also plans to lift capacity restrictions for many businesses.

CNN's Alexandra Field live in Times Square with more.

What are you seeing, Alexandra?

ALEXANDRA FIELD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hey there, John Berman.

Look, when you walk don the streets here in busy Times Square, you see people who are wearing those masks, people who are not wearing the masks, but unequivocally tomorrow marks a major turning point for this city. A city that was so badly devastated by the pandemic, particularly in the early days back in March and April of 2020.

The new rules will go into effect tomorrow, meaning that if you are fully vaccinated, you can drop the mask except in places like schools, now public transportation. Those who are not vaccinated are still being trusted to keep those masks on. So, will the city look visibly different tomorrow?

Well, we've talked to a few people out here who said they've already made up their minds even before they got the new guidance.

[08:20:02]

Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FIELD: Tomorrow the governor says --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.

FIELD: -- you can ditch the mass. What would you do?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm going to wear my mask.

FIELD: Are you vaccinated?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm vaccinated, yeah.

FIELD: And why are you choosing to continue to wear the mask?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just think it's safer and not everybody is vaccinated yet. And there's things -- it is cleaner and healthier and germ free.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Unmasked? Especially outside when I'm walking to and from work. I mean, I'm not around anyone. I mean, I'm vaccinated so I feel completely confident in the vaccine and I feel fine.

So, yeah, I mean, obviously, inside the buildings and close quarters I still wear my mask so I'm very modest to other people. But outside, by myself, obviously, usually, you know, in passing, there's no concern in my head. So I'm confident.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FIELD: A lot of mixed opinions out here. But, John and Brianna, I also want to point out the fact that I spoke to two Colombian tourists who have traveled to New York in search of vaccines. We discussed the fact there are so many vaccines in America that people can unmask at this point and that's the fact that simply blows their minds.

It also just deeply underscores the fact that there's a choice that Americans are able to make right now. There's access to vaccines that simply does not exist in so much of the world at this point.

BERMAN: It's a great point, Alexandra. It's a success story here in the United States, to be sure. Thank you so much for your reporting -- Brianna.

KEILAR: The CDC is facing formidable challenges in convincing conservatives to get COVID-19 vaccines, but vaccine hesitancy isn't just falling on political lines but religious ones as well. White evangelicals are the most hesitant with 40 percent saying they likely will not get vaccinated compared to 25 percent of all Americans who say the same.

I want to talk about this now with the Reverend Franklin Graham, who is president and CEO of Samaritan's Purse and the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association.

Sir, thank you for being with us this morning.

REV. FRANKLIN GRAHAM, PRESIDENT & CEO, SAMARITAN'S PURSE: Thank you, Brianna, for having me.

KEILAR: So you are trying to convince evangelicals to get vaccinated. You're also leading by example. You are fully vaccinated yourself. How are you feeling about having that protection against the virus?

GRAHAM: Well, first of all, Brianna, I'm 68 years old. And the last thing I need is COVID. It could probably kill me at my age.

So I would encourage people to get the vaccine. If you are my age or older, it's so important.

And with Samaritan's Purse, we have treated a lot of COVID patients. Right there in New York City, Italy, the Bahamas, Los Angeles County, with our medical hospitals.

It's a disease you don't want. It's a virus that can kill you. And we've had a number of our staff that have been extremely sick, on respirators for several months. And it's just not -- it's just not worth the risk.

I would encourage people to pray about it, think about it. Certainly, I would not want to tell somebody you have to have it or I think the government will make a big mistake to mandate this. It's a personal choice. My wife and I made a personal choice.

But, Brianna, Jesus Christ when he came to this earth, he used his power as the son of God to bring healing to people's bodies, and we as Christians, we want to follow his example and use modern medicine to bring healing to people.

And, of course, the vaccine prevents this virus, or can, and it's just a good way to go, and I would encourage people to pray about it and really consider it. It's so important because it can save life and, of course, Brianna, I'm pro-life. And I want to save life.

KEILAR: We've talked before on this show about your voice on this topic. And it's so important because you are an incredibly prominent evangelical voice in the country speaking out in favor of vaccines. At the same time, and you're aware of this, there are many evangelical pastors who've been spreading a lot of disinformation to their congregants about the virus and also vaccines.

Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JESSE DUPLANTIS, JESSE DUPLANTIS MINISTRIES: That's called germophobic. Watch this. You think I'm sucking the virus off of her?

PAUL DAUGHERTY, VICTORY CHURCH: I came today to declare victory over the virus.

KENNETH COPELAND,TELEVANGELIST: COVID-19 --

CROWD: COVID-19.

COPELAND: I blow the wind of God on you.

CROWD: I blow the wind of God on you. COPELAND: You are destroyed forever.

CROWD: You are destroyed forever.

COPELAND: And you will never be back.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: So you will recognize that some of those are from March and April of last year. But if you track a lot of those pastors, you know, occasionally, you run into one who now admits that basically COVID exists. But this disinformation is still very prevalent and it's spreading not just about coronavirus but about the vaccine.

[08:25:04]

You're aware that evangelicals are one of the most skeptical groups, white evangelicals, especially of vaccine and COVID vax. What do you say to their pastors about their responsibility?

GRAHAM: Well, first of all, these pastors that you had on television, they represent such a small percentage of the Christian base. And I would just ignore those guys.

I'm talking about the individual pastor, Sunday after Sunday who gets up in his pulpit who preaches the gospel of Jesus Christ, tells people how to turn from their sins and receive Christ by faith into their hearts. These pastors are out there in the trenches every day.

And I would encourage these pastors to inform their congregation about where they can get a vaccine if they want a vaccine and give them, you know, information. Not try to force them but just give them information.

But the coronavirus is the real deal. It can make you extremely sick. It can kill you. And Samaritan's Purse, we've been dealing with this. We've seen it firsthand.

And so I know what it can do. And I am afraid for people who just, very cavalier about it. You need to take the precautions. I believe that masks have worked. I believe that hand sanitizers have worked. I believe social distancing has worked.

And now, of course, we're lifting that and I think that's good because people still need to be cautious, Brianna. We're not out of the woods yet. And the coronavirus is going to be around for a while.

And I would encourage people to consider the vaccine if they haven't considered it. Again, I took it. I was sick for one day. I felt like I was coming down with the flu, just one day and, boom, then I was over it.

And I still function. I traveled that day to California, did some filming that day, even though I didn't feel good. But that was just a reaction and I talked to doctors. They said that's normal and that was a good sign that you had a reaction. But I would encourage people just to pray about it and, you talk about

the numbers. It's like 45 percent of the evangelicals say they won't take it, but 45 percent of all blue collar workers say they're not going to get it. In Germany, 50 percent of all the nurses say they're not going to take it.

I mean, so you have a large group of people out here and these numbers are shifting. But I think with the evangelical community, the numbers are shifting downward. I just think they are learning, they're getting more information, and they are beginning to see through this and I think they'll take it.

KEILAR: I will say, I don't know if it's fair to minimize the reach of some of these pastors or, look, they may just be reinforcing what some other congregants already feel. We have looked at what they've said. These are pastors, not just the ones we showed, but a number of them who speak to millions upon millions of people. So, there are definitely people listening to them.

But I want to ask you because the disinformation that we're seeing driving vaccine hesitancy among evangelicals is really part of a bigger disinformation problem that includes, you know, lies about the outcome of the 2016 election that Trump, not Biden won, which many evangelicals believe, which is something that you have given life to.

Do you have any regrets about publicly doubting the outcome of the 2016 election? Or 2020, I'm sorry.

(CROSSTALK)

GRAHAM: Brianna, you've got about 73 -- you've got about 73 million Americans out there that have some concerns about the election. And, listen, I think it's time we move on. The election is over with.

We've got to -- we've got to move on as a country. Move forward. President Biden is the president.

KEILAR: It's not over -- sir, respectfully, Reverend, it's not over for a lot of people. It is not. I mean, we're looking at this audit going to in Arizona. So do you -- so how do you --

GRAHAM: It's over for me.

KEILAR: So you don't believe what you said before in December about believing Trump when he said it was rigged?

GRAHAM: There are 73-million-plus people out there that feel there was funny business in that election.

I've moved on, Brianna. We are trying to save people's lives. We have got a real crisis in front of us and I want to work with the Biden administration, if we can, to try to get information out that would save life. And to me, the election is behind us.

President Biden won. He's sworn in. And let's just move on. As a nation, I think it's important to move on. KEILAR: With all due respect, sir, I understand that you are saying

that, but there are people who doubt the outcome of the election. They're not moving on. And many folks, including yourself, told them not to essentially, or to question the outcome of this election. You did it more than a month after the outcome of the election.

Are you -- do you stand corrected? Is what you said incorrect?

GRAHAM: No, I don't think it's incorrect. I'm saying, Brianna, it is what it is. You have 73 --

KEILAR: So you're saying that Joe Biden didn't win the election but that you're moving on? I want to be very clear about what you're saying.

GRAHAM: No.