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Home Owner Alleges Racial Discrimination in Home Appraisal; New York Attorney General Announces Criminal Investigation into Trump Organization; Rep. Madeleine Dean (D-PA) Interviewed on Congressional Investigation into January 6th Capitol Riots; NY AG Announces "Criminal" Probe Into Trump Organization. Aired 8-8:30a ET

Aired May 19, 2021 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: This is a key point what happened here, the way those appraisal companies decided on that number. They were looking at comps, so comparative house sales, for homes that were actually farther away from Carlette's house than the other appraisal that yielded what you think clearly is a more fair appraisal dollar value.

AMY NELSON, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, FAIR HOUSING CENTER OF CENTRAL INDIANA: Yes, so the Fair Housing complaints that have been filed will be investigated by the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development. And one of the things we allege is that the comps pulled were just not fair. And that could be because they were pulled from too far away, pulled from certain types of neighborhoods with similar demographics, a number of different features of that.

Carlette lives in an historically black neighborhood in Indianapolis. It's a neighborhood that has passed down homeownership to family members. And there aren't a lot of comps in her particular neighborhood, but her neighborhood shouldn't be devalued because of that or because of the race of her particular neighborhood when we have seen the neighborhoods all around her gentrify.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Carlette, I'm reminded of something that former President Obama used to say. He'd say, it turns out I've been black my whole life. So he knows what things are like. And I can't put myself in your shoes, but when you got that third appraisal back, double what the earlier ones were, and the difference in your mind is that it was a white guy who was in the house at the time with no pictures of a black family inside, I wonder how that felt to you.

CARLETTE DUFFY, HOMEOWNER WHO ALLEGES DISCRIMINATION IN HOME APPRAISALS: It felt dehumanizing. It felt demoralizing. It felt -- at first I felt vindicated in all actuality, and it just allowed me to see that I knew that I was right. But then you think about the fact that I had to remove myself from my home in order for my home to have value. And it just -- that's the part that really hurts. And that's the part that is difficult to get over. And each time I think about it, it takes me right back to that point where it's just upsetting. And to think just how often this happens. This is not a one-off. The instance in Florida is not a one-off. So it's something that has to change, and that's why I contacted Amy. KEILAR: It is clearly painful, Carlette, and when you explain it, it

is so clear why. We can hear it in your voice. We'll be tracking this. We want to see what happens, what is the outcome of this complaint. Carlette Duffy and Amy Nelson, thank you to both of you.

NEW DAY continues right now.

BERMAN: I'm John Berman alongside Brianna Keilar. On this NEW DAY, a dramatic development first reported by CNN. New York state now conducting a criminal investigation into the Trump Organization. What could prosecutors find?

Plus, the irony of Kevin McCarthy and the Capitol insurrection. He wants nothing to do with a special commission, but he could be called to testify in front of it.

KEILAR: And the QAnon shaman's defense lawyer questioning the mental capacity of the Capitol rioters and offending pretty much everyone else in the process. We will ask him this morning, was that language really necessary?

And the FAA warning one airline about problems with pilots. What a CNN investigation uncovered here.

BERMAN: Good morning to our viewers here in the United States and all around the world. It is Wednesday, May 19th. An ominous sign for the former president and his business empire. The New York Attorney General's Office announced its investigation into the Trump Organization is no longer just civil. It is now a criminal probe. CNN first broke the story overnight. The A.G. is now working with the Manhattan district attorney on the expanded probe.

KEILAR: And they're looking here into the Trump Organization's finances. This includes the former president's tax returns and allegations that the company inflated the value of its properties for loans and for tax benefits and may have committed tax and insurance fraud. No response yet from the lawyers, we should add, but Trump in the past has called the A.G.'s investigation politically motivated.

BERMAN: Joining me now is Barbara Res, she's a former executive vice president of the Trump Organization who worked for Donald Trump for 18 years. Barbara, thanks for joining us this morning. I was reminded of something you told my former colleague Alisyn Camerota. You said Donald Trump and this organization felt that laws basically were for stupid people.

BARBARA RES, FORMER EXECUTIVE VICE PRESIDENT, TRUMP ORGANIZATION: Right.

BERMAN: What do you mean by that?

[08:05:01]

RES: Well, he actually sort of said that when he talked about how he was able to manipulate the bankruptcy laws. I'm so smart. I can do this. And effectively, he really did believe that the laws were built -- based upon notions that people would follow that didn't have the kind of sense of entitlement that he had. So he both felt that the laws were not for him, and he also felt that people that actually followed them had no creative insights that they could skirt them like he did.

BERMAN: So you worked for him for a long time through thick and thin and through things going well and things going not so well. When something like this would happen, and I know nothing like this exactly has ever happened, but the announcement of a criminal investigation, so clearly in greater legal jeopardy today than yesterday, how did he respond? What is likely the atmosphere inside Trump world this morning?

RES: More than him panicking, which might be a kneejerk, I think he's furious. I think he's throwing things and yelling at people, and I think no one wants to go near him. I think that's what's going on in the White House -- not in the White House, in the pink house.

BERMAN: In whatever house, whether it's the golf course in New Jersey or Mar-a-Lago. So we know that the investigators, both the Manhattan County D.A. and civil investigation before but now the criminal investigation from the state, has been focused on Allen Weisselberg, the chief financial officer for the Trump Organization forever, forever. This guy has been around there forever. And you have described just how loyal Allen Weisselberg has been. You said when people used to call Donald Trump Donald, he would still call him Mr. Trump. Talk to us about the scope of that loyalty.

RES: The thing about Allen was that he was always a sycophant, whereas there were many of us who spoke our minds and did our own thing. He was one that actually was bowing to Trump. He seemed to adore Trump from the very beginning. When I went to Trump Tower, he was in Brooklyn. He was, I guess you'd call him the chief accountant or the controller of the operation. And basically, what that involved was collecting rents and sending out bills, and things like that, making payments to contractors and things like that.

When he came to the New York office, which is when I came back from working at another job and I came back as executive V.P. in charge of development, he was really, to me, doing the same basic thing, collecting rents, sending out bills, paying bills, that kind of thing. Now I'm sure that evolved to some degree. I know that even from the beginning, Allen was doing all of Trump's personal finances, his checking account, that kind of thing. And I think that probably Allen did all the time acquire a lot more power, and because Trump could trust him. And ultimately, I imagine that Allen was the one person and maybe the only person in the Trump Organization that Trump really, really trusted and felt that he would take a bullet for him.

BERMAN: What's the full extent of his loyalty? Do you think there's any possibility that Weisselberg would flip on Trump?

RES: Yes, yes. I heard someone on this morning who said that Weisselberg is probably a done deal. There's not much to get from him. I totally don't agree. I think that the fact that they are setting up his children will make him inclined to try to get them off the hook, like Flynn did, way back when. But I just think that Allen probably doesn't want to perjure himself. I don't imagine Allen -- he was a man that I had respect for and was friendly with, and was a very shy guy, soft spoken, not at all aggressive. He seems to have changed a little bit in that realm. But I don't think that he was the kind of person that would actually commit perjury. Perhaps that's changed, too. I saw him go from a guy that lived in a working man's house in Massapequa or something like that to the big apartment on Fifth Avenue, the fancy schools for the grandchildren and all that stuff. That was not the Allen I knew. So in that evolution, maybe he has evolved to the point where he would lie for Trump.

BERMAN: Barbara Res, thank you so much for your perspective on this, appreciate it.

RES: My pleasure, thank you.

BERMAN: Brianna?

KEILAR: Joining me now is Congresswoman Madeleine Dean. She is a member of the Judicial and Financial Services Committees. She was also one of the nine impeachment managers appointed in the wake of the Capitol insurrection. Thank you for coming into the studio to have this chat. I appreciate it.

REP. MADELEINE DEAN, (D-PA): Pleasure to be with you.

[08:10:00]

KEILAR: What's your reaction learning the New York attorney general is joining the Manhattan D.A. in a criminal investigation of the Trump Organization?

DEAN: It's not surprising to me. I think the walls are finally closing in on the truth about the Trump Organization and what has happened. You saw that we in Congress tried to exercise our oversight responsibility into Trump finances, tax returns, appraisals of properties and those kinds of things. And the Trump administration thwarted us at every turn. We're going to see now through the use of the D.A. and the attorney general in New York. I commend them and I hope they get to the truth.

KEILAR: You are having a vote on the January 6th commission, Congress' investigation, or at least potentially, to get to the bottom of what happened. This will pass the House, we expect. But right now, the Senate, it's sort of unclear what is going to happen. I want to play what Congressman McCarthy, the House Republican leader, said last night about this commission.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY, (R-CA), HOUSE MINORITY LEADER: There's already four investigations. And now we want to put a political commission to go forward? This is driven solely by politics and Nancy Pelosi, but we should not be a part of that.

(END VIDEO CLIP) KEILAR: More Senate Republicans, it appear, may be agreeing with him on that. What do you think?

DEAN: Brianna, I was thinking about that when I saw that last night. The most important thing we bring to our public service is our credibility. And sadly, Mr. McCarthy has thrown away his credibility. He's poured it away in buckets. Think about what happened here. He -- his ranking member of the committee, Representative Katko, negotiated in good faith with the blessing of the leadership, the joint commission, bipartisan, independent, with equal subpoena power. And Mr. McCarthy suddenly now has turned on that. Why is that? Is he afraid of subpoenas? Is he afraid of the truth?

KEILAR: Is that what you think it is? You think he's afraid of being subpoenaed that he did speak to Trump that day?

DEAN: Yes. Think of the other conversations he's likely had with the president. He was able to call him directly. We know from our investigation and from the impeachment trial that he did speak to Mr. Trump and pleaded with him to call off the insurrection. So Mr. McCarthy is showing that he's afraid of subpoenas. He's afraid of the truth. He's poured away his credibility, and he has strangely tethered himself to Mr. Trump, to his failed presidency, to the big lie. And he's leading, falsely leading his members in that same place.

KEILAR: There is a -- I don't want to say a prevailing thought for Republicans, some elected officials, and some voters, that the insurrection wasn't really an insurrection, or it wasn't really a big deal. You were in the House chamber when rioters nearly made it in. They pierced the window into the door. What do you say to Republicans, including ones who were there with you who are whitewashing this like it wasn't really a thing?

DEAN: It's really Orwellian. Don't believe your eyes. Don't believe the experience you actually had. I was up in the chamber on the 6th when the rioters pierced that chamber, breaking the glass, banging on the doors, breaking the glass. We were taken out with gas masks on. They were chanting "Hang Mike Pence." This was no Tuesday tour. And I don't understand, frankly, how anyone, Republican or Democrat, could say that this is nothing to see here. Let's just move on.

We need this independent commission. It is not a political commission. It is an independent commission. The very seat of our democracy was attacked. Any one of us could have died, and people did die that day. I would think the Republicans would want to get to the bottom of it for the simple reason, we're sworn to protect and preserve our democracy. If we don't do that now we are destined to have that happen again.

KEILAR: Were you afraid for your life that day?

DEAN: I was. I have to admit, I think your brain tells you, no, I'm certainly in one of the safest places on the planet. But I was telling you at the time of the banging on the doors, that is what made it very real, and I heard the piercing of the glass. I crouched down. I called my family. I was fearful. KEILAR: Congresswoman, thank you for being with us. Congresswoman

Madeleine Dean, we appreciate it.

DEAN: My pleasure.

KEILAR: Up next, Joe Biden's balancing act with Benjamin Netanyahu. New CNN reporting on the president's talks with the prime minister amid the Gaza bloodshed. We'll have that next.

And is America ready for Giuliani, the next gen? Better question, is Andrew Giuliani ready for major elected office? We'll roll the tape.

BERMAN: Plus, quote, "They're all f-ing short bus people." Those words, which I'm sorry that I just read out loud, from the lawyer of a Capitol riot suspect. He joins us live.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:18:34]

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: The New York attorney general is now investigating the Trump Organization in a criminal investigation now. The office recently informing Trump officials of this new criminal component.

Let's bring in CNN anchor and chief Washington correspondent, Jake Tapper. He is also the author of "The Devil May Dance" out now. And a very good book, I might say.

Jake, first on the Trump Organization, how big a deal -- there it is. John Berman is all about it. It's really a good read. You're going to need a break from some of the news we're talking to you about and that's a good outlet.

But how significant is this move going from, they were civil, now it's criminal. You have the state AG joining the Manhattan D.A.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: I mean, it's obviously significant whenever any sort of law enforcement branch announces a criminal investigation of an organization. I do generally, as a journalist, wait until there are charges brought before I believe that it's truly significant just because anybody can be investigated. And I don't think that they would announce the criminal investigation if they didn't think there was something there.

But I am going to wait until there are indictments and a grand jury convened et cetera before I begin to think that there's actually trouble in River City for the former president.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: It is a shift, though, right? I mean, as you said, the announcement of a shift from a civil to a criminal thing.

[08:20:01]

We were talking to Jennifer Rodgers, our lawyer, you know, our legal analyst before. They did that because they more or less had to. If you change the nature of your investigation, you have to tell the target that things are different now, and that may be it. That may be all we know of this for a while. We'll have to see what they come up with.

Major development this morning, Jake, which is what the House is going to vote on the bipartisan commission to investigate January 6th. A commission that -- the deal was negotiated by John Katko using terms dictated to him by Kevin McCarthy. But now, Kevin McCarthy and Steve Scalise say they don't want their members, Republicans to vote for it.

What do you think is driving Kevin McCarthy?

TAPPER: I think there are a number of things. First of all, I have to say. I mean, Speaker Pelosi folded on a number of the issues.

BERMAN: Right.

TAPPER: I mean, she initially wanted Democrats to have more members on this commission than Republicans and ultimately chairman of Homeland Security, Bennie Thompson, and John Katko, negotiated a deal where it's 50/50 like previous commissions of its type.

So, it's kind of interesting that McCarthy is not taking the "W." He's not taking the win here.

And, look, I don't know what's motivating Kevin McCarthy but just looking at it, just as an historical matter, Kevin McCarthy and Steve Scalise and the new conference chair of the House Republicans, Elise Stefanik, all three of them spread the big lie about the election. All three of them voted to disenfranchise voters after the insurrection. All three of them signed on to the deranged Texas attorney general lawsuit that would have thrown out four states' electoral votes.

So, I mean, they are, one way or another, complicit in the big lie that was part of the insurrection, part of what fueled the attack. Now, I can only say as a human being, if somebody attacked my workforce, I would want to know every single thing about it, whether it reflected poorly or favorably on anyone. I would want to know what happened.

And to a degree, that is the workplace for all of us. That is the people's house, Congress. So it's kind of shocking that McCarthy is not only opposing it, but now they are whipping against it. Steve Scalise, the House minority whip is telling Republicans not to vote for it. And it's relatively shocking.

Obviously, it's going to pass the House anyway. The big question is, what does this house Republican opposition mean when it comes to Senate Republicans who, so far, have behaved more normally than their House counterparts when it comes to basic standards of democracy.

KEILAR: To that point, and I'm so glad you raised that point about, look, Congress deserves this investigation, this commission. But so do the American people, right? This was an attack on --

(CROSSTALK)

TAPPER: It's our place, yeah.

KEILAR: It's so essential. In the Senate, though, where, as you said, it seems like more normal behavior in the wake of what happened on January 6th. We're now getting these indications from Senator Mitch McConnell that Republicans are maybe not willing to go for a commission.

Let's listen to his concerns.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY), MINORITY LEADER: I'm not saying that we have decided this should not go forward. But if it's going to go forward, it needs to be clearly balanced and not tilted one way or the other so we have an objective evaluation. So I think it's safe for you to report that we're undecided about the way forward at this point.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: You really think, Jake, they're undecided? Do you think he's inclined for there to be some changes to try to make it, in his eyes, more fair?

TAPPER: Look, I don't know. I'm inclined to give the Senate Republican leader the benefit of the doubt here because he has, since December, been standing up for basic norms. It took him a little while to get there. He was giving Trump breathing space that perhaps Trump didn't deserve.

I mean, I guess the reporting suggests that Jared Kushner was telling Mitch McConnell and others, don't worry, everything is going to be fine, just let this -- let the court cases proceed and then ultimately, of course, Trump kept going and is still going today, still putting out the big lie. But Mitch McConnell has been there holding Trump accountable.

So, look, if he's saying that they just want to make sure that the commission is balanced and fair and in the tradition of other commissions, previous ones, let's see what happens. I'm not ready to lump him in with Kevin McCarthy just yet.

Look, Democrats are politicians, too. Republicans are politicians. They just want to make sure it's fair. I don't have a problem with that. Let's see what happens.

BERMAN: Jake, you have some new reporting. Obviously, there's an intense conflict in the Middle East, war right now between Israel and Hamas.

[08:25:05]

The Biden administration and, you know, Jen Psaki, the press secretary, have said the president is involved in quiet intensive diplomacy. You know, we're not seeing everything that's going on in his approach to the Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.

You've got reporting on this. Please explain.

TAPPER: Well, when I covered the Obama White House as a White House correspondent, the relationship between President Obama and Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu was awful.

I mean, it was completely fraught. They did not like each other, and they did not have a good relationship. And that had an effect on the U.S./Israel relationship.

And what my sources tell me is that that informed the Biden foreign policy when it comes to Israel, in terms of the belief and those listening can believe this is a good strategy or not, but I'm just telling you what the belief is. The belief in the White House is, the more public the conflict with Netanyahu, the less influential the United States is.

That especially now with Netanyahu in domestic political trouble having a tough time forming a government, on trial for corruption and on and on, the belief is, look, if we start scolding -- this is the belief inside the White House according to my sources -- if we start scolding Netanyahu, and if start reprimanding him, if people start giving floor speeches and U.N. Security Council resolutions, all that does is gives Netanyahu incentive to brush back all the criticism, and ignore it all and stand in Israel and portray himself as, look, I'm going to protect you from Hamas rockets, and I'm going to protect you from international scolding, and I am your protector. And that would be the belief is Netanyahu's position. That's how he would handle it.

And the Biden belief is they could be more effective to get the cease- fire going to get the cease-fire to happen by being diplomatic and behind the scenes. But they definitely believe, look, the last conflict between Israel and Gaza lasted 50 days. This one is, I think, we're at day ten now. They know, they believe it has to end. It has to stop. They just think they can be most effective and influential with Netanyahu, not doing so publicly.

KEILAR: Finally, Jake, let's talk about your book out now for folks who want to get this, a continuance of your last novel, "The Hellfire Club." And this is yeah, here it is, "The Devil May Dance." I was pretty interested to learn that you got a little, what, guff. Lawyers were upset because they thought you quoted entire Sinatra songs in your book? What was that about?

TAPPER: But, you know this, the first one, let me just say, if you haven't read "The Hellfire Club", you can still read "The Devil May Dance", you do not need to read the first one to understand the second one.

But, yeah, when you write a book, a novel or even nonfiction and you include a line from a song or an excerpt from a song, the lawyers will come in before publication and say you cannot do that. You can only publish one line. That's it. That's it for fair use. And anything more than that, and we'll get sued for intellectual copyright for property.

And so, yeah, I have an entire -- a couple Sinatra songs in the book. One of them is "The Devil May Dance" which is the climax of the book is Sinatra singing this song "The Devil May Dance."

BERMAN: Do some of it for us. Show us.

TAPPER: I don't have a melody for it. But I quote the entire song and the lawyers were very mad. They were like, how can you do this? We've been through this before. You can only quote one line.

And I said, it's not a real song. It's a fake song. I made it up. It's fictitious. That is not an actual song.

So I don't have a melody, John, but I understand you have a gift when it comes to you and your mandolin. So if you want to, that you used to play with the hasty pudding club. So, if you want to come up with a tune, I'm willing to hear auditions for when we ultimately bring this to the screen.

But right now, all I have is lyrics. But it's not a real song. But that was the best compliment the lawyers could give me by being angry at me.

BERMAN: You punked the lawyers. I mean, it's kind of awesome.

TAPPER: I didn't mean to. I didn't mean to.

But then the editor said you need to put in the book it's not real because people are going to spend a lot of time searching on Google for this Sinatra song "The Devil May Dance", so I put it in.

BERMAN: Under duress.

TAPPER: But it's not a real song.

BERMAN: Which is the best part.

KEILAR: You know, Berman, I think we can work out a tune to this thing. We're going to do it.

BERMAN: We're going to have this thing set to music in an orchestra soon, to be sure.

KEILAR: Yeah, that's right.

TAPPER: That's awesome. Brianna plays the spoons and you play the mandolin.

KEILAR: The tambourine. I'm backup vocals.

TAPPER: Perhaps in a week or so. Yeah, I love it. Let's do it.

KEILAR: All right. The book "The Devil May Dance" is available.