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Senate To Hold Key Vote On January 6 Commission Tomorrow; CNN: Pompeo's "Suspicious As Hell" Theory Hunt Squashed By Biden; Actor Slammed For Apologizing To China Over Taiwan Remark. Aired 7:30-8a ET

Aired May 26, 2021 - 07:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[07:30:00]

HARRY ENTEN, CNN POLITICS SENIOR WRITER AND ANALYST: Just 24 percent of them say a lot or some, in my average of polls. Seventy-two percent say little or none.

And this is the key thing. Anything that makes Donald Trump look bad, they don't believe him -- a majority of Republicans -- and so they try and shift the blame to say left-wingers are, say, hey, there mostly peaceful.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: The most stunning poll number to me in the last few weeks is the one you're about to show us because of the way it is asked and the answer that is given. That's how I'll tease what you're about to show us.

ENTEN: This, to me, was insane. Who is the true president right now among Republicans? Well, we all know that this gentleman right here, Joseph Robinette Biden, Jr., is, in fact, the President of the United States and got a majority of electoral votes on November third. Yet, 53 percent of Republicans say that Donald Trump is the true president right now. Just 47 percent say Joe Biden.

They are living in fantasyland - fantasyland. This is nuts. This is one of the craziest stats I've ever seen.

BERMAN: A majority of Republicans believe that Donald Trump is the true president.

ENTEN: That's -- that is exactly what this shows and this builds on the fact that most Republicans believe that the 2020 election was stolen from Donald Trump.

BERMAN: All right, again, this informs us as to why Republican members of Congress are voting the way they are.

One other thing here -- and these are numbers that the former president himself is touting -- is looking at 2024 here.

ENTEN: Right. If you have this idea that Donald Trump is just going to go away from the Republican electorate, that's an illusion. Should Trump run in 2024? Among Republicans, 63 percent say yes. This is still Donald Trump's Republican Party. Even four months out

from being in office Republicans still like Donald Trump. They still have the backing and that's why you're seeing a lot of Republicans on Capitol Hill not wanting to go after him.

BERMAN: I think these numbers are really important to understand. Harry Enten, thank you so much for delivering them.

ENTEN: Thank you.

BERMAN: Brianna.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: I don't know why, Berman, but that sound that Harry Enten made, like, made my morning.

ENTEN: Oh, thank you.

KEILAR: That was so awesome. Are you going to do it again --

ENTEN: You know what? I've --

KEILAR: -- or is that like an impromptu thing?

ENTEN: No, I didn't plan it, you know. It's just the jolt that I get getting out of bed. That alarm sparks me up and then I bring joy to you. Hopefully, to the viewers, too.

KEILAR: Oh, great. Let's record it. That will be my morning alarm. I will pop right out of bed.

All right, thank you guys so much.

ENTEN: Thank you.

KEILAR: Our next guest was on the 911 Commission and says that while some political resistance is to be expected, there are a lot of questions that must be answered and answered by a commission.

Joining us now is Jamie Gorelick, who is a former member of the 9/11 Commission, as we mentioned. And a former Justice Department official under President Clinton as well.

Jamie, speak to us about why this is so essential because you have Republicans saying that look, there are other investigations going on here. What can a commission -- which, by the way, is not members of Congress even though it would be appointed by Congress -- what can a commission do that that investigation is not going to do?

JAMIE GORELICK, FORMER MEMBER OF THE 9/11 COMMISSION, FORMER DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL, CLINTON ADMINISTRATION: Well, a commission, first of all, would answer questions that the Justice Department is simply not going to answer. I mean, the Justice Department looks at the four corners of a criminal case. It doesn't look beyond.

It doesn't look for what political motivations there might have been. It doesn't look at what the Pentagon did or didn't do. It doesn't look at what the park service did or did not do. So you can't count on the extant investigations to cover this.

A commission -- or as a fallback, a joint congressional committee -- can look well beyond at all manner of questions. And history demands this, just as it did with the 9/11 commission.

KEILAR: How essential is this? And I ask because you're having some Republicans in the Senate who look like they're joining Democrats but it's not going to be enough. And there's talk about perhaps getting rid of the filibuster to do this. Is it that essential that that step should be taken?

GORELICK: You know, I think actually if I were a Republican, I would want to have a commission because I get an equal voice, as this has been negotiated, in what the -- in how the investigation is conducted. I get an equal voice on whether a subpoena is issued, for example.

Whereas, if the Democrats simply did an investigation on their own in a -- in one or both bodies of Congress, which they control, the Republicans would have no real meaningful voice. So I don't -- I don't really understand this.

I -- you know, I also would warn that having a commission voted upon does not mean you're going to have a successful commission. It was not preordained that the 9/11 commission would be successful. It was hard to achieve. And in this environment, I'm not sure a commission would actually work.

KEILAR: Well, that's a very interesting point because it does come down to leaders who they appoint, right? There are various levels where they can stymie the actions of a commission.

[07:35:06]

GORELICK: Oh, yes.

I mean, we had, in Tom Kean and Lee Hamilton, a -- two politicians who were also -- Kean was a historian, Lee Hamilton was a moderate foreign policy expert. Both of them were committed to history. They were committed to getting the facts and their commitment infused what all of us did. We were appointed by the most partisan people in Washington and yet, we put that partisanship aside to get to the truth.

I don't know that that's possible here in the environment that you've just described -- the highly politicized environment.

I would also say there is no way to do a credible investigation by December. I mean, you'd be lucky to get the staff up and running by December, let alone doing all of the work that needs to be done here. So if you want to have something serious it will run into the 2022 election just by its nature.

KEILAR: (INAUDIBLE).

GORELICK: You could have the report --

KEILAR: Yes. GORELICK: -- come after the election. But this -- the current proposal is not -- is not, in my view, workable.

KEILAR: Well, I think it's a shame. I think it's very clear, just like America deserved the 9/11 commission and looking at all of the lessons learned, they deserve a commission when it comes to January sixth. And I think there's a lot of agreement broadly among some Republicans and Democrats on that.

But before I let you go, because you're obviously an incredibly experienced lawyer, I wanted to see what you think about this report out of "The Washington Post" and has been confirmed by some other outlets that the Manhattan D.A. has convened a special grand jury to look at potential charges in their Trump Organization probe that's been going on now for a couple of years.

What is your reaction to this news?

GORELICK: A prosecutor doesn't convene a grand jury, let alone a special grand jury which has none of the time constraints that a regular one might, unless he or she is pretty confident that there is a criminal case there. And, you know, grand juries are often used to really force the issue with respect to witnesses or people who the prosecutor would like to have as witnesses. So this is an important step.

KEILAR: It certainly is.

Jamie Gorelick, thank you so much for being with us this morning.

GORELICK: Happy to be here.

KEILAR: Up next, the secret U.S. investigation into the COVID lab leak theory. Why did the Biden administration shut it down?

BERMAN: Plus, a Hollywood star facing fierce backlash on two fronts while trying to promote his new movie.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:42:08]

KEILAR: CNN has learned that there was a secret project at the State Department to prove the coronavirus pandemic originated in a lab in Wuhan, China. This mission began under former Secretary of State Mike Pompeo. And it just got shut down by the Biden administration because of major concerns about the quality of the work.

CNN national security correspondent Kylie Atwood is here with me. A source described this work to you as, quote, "suspicious as hell." But at the same time as this lab leak theory is gaining traction, these are questions that need to be answered. So where are we?

KYLIE ATWOOD, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Right, so let's look at the whole picture here. This was an effort that we've learned was launched in the final months of the Trump administration. They were looking specifically at the lab leak theory and the possibility that COVID-19 could have possibly come from China's biological weapons and research development program.

Now, of course, this effort was launched while the Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, at the time, himself, appeared to be putting his finger on the scale on the lab leak theory. So there were concerns about politicization of the intelligence.

But I am told by those who were supportive of this effort that it was legitimate. That they needed to be looking into this. There was no one else in the U.S. government asking these intense questions about the lab leak theory.

Now, we should note, Brianna, that the Intelligence Community still says they don't know where COVID-19 originated from, right? They don't know when, where, or how the lab leak theory is a possibility. The spread through human contact with animals is another one.

But critics of this effort were saying look, those who were working on this weren't telling folks at the State Department about it. They were keeping what they were finding and they were briefing it to interagency partners.

And the Biden administration looked at these findings in the early months of the Trump -- of the Biden administration. The State Department decided to close down this project, a spokesperson told me. And I am told that is because there were concerns about the actual product that this project was putting out. There were concerns about the legitimacy in what they were finding and it was deemed an ineffective use of resources.

Now, we should note this doesn't mean the Biden administration has shut down all efforts to look into the COVID-19 origins at all. A State Department spokesperson told me that the State Department is still working with the interagency to look into the origins.

National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan has been very clear in criticizing the World Health Organization's effort because they haven't been let in to see everything they need to see, to gain access to everything they need in China.

So this is still being probed but it is interesting that this effort was shut down and that it became so politicized. That it was so dramatic at the State Department.

KEILAR: It's one thing to test a hypothesis, it's another thing to just try to prove it --

ATWOOD: Right.

KEILAR: -- except that is not scientific.

ATWOOD: Right.

KEILAR: Kylie, thank you so much.

[07:45:00]

BERMAN: All right. Here to discuss, CNN political analyst and "Washington Post" columnist, Josh Rogin. He's done a ton of reporting on this theory over the past year. He's also the author of the book "Chaos Under Heaven: Trump, Xi, and the Battle for the 21st Century." Josh, thank you so much for being with us.

You have a new column out today that deals specifically with the Biden administration, Congress, and the WHO.

But first, let me just ask you to react to Kylie's reporting on shutting down this Pompeo-led State Department investigation. Was that a real, legit investigation? What's your take?

JOSH ROGIN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST, COLUMNIST, THE WASHINGTON POST, AUTHOR, "CHAOS UNDER HEAVEN: TRUMP, XI, AND THE BATTLE FOR THE 21ST CENTURY": Yes, great reporting by Kylie here.

This was a project that I did know about that was going on inside the State Department and one of many, actually, and that's what was going on inside the Trump administration. They had lots of different investigations and they weren't all necessarily coordinated, and that's why they didn't last. That's why the Biden people were rightly skeptical of them because they weren't all done in a comprehensive way.

But she's absolutely right. This was looking into the bioweapons aspect of this. Not to say that the coronavirus was a bioweapon, just to say that hey, China has a bioweapons program and hey, doesn't it work with viruses? And maybe we should take a look at that considering that a virus pandemic originated next to the Chinese labs. That's all.

BERMAN: Separately, you have a column out this morning and I think everyone really needs to read it because it lays out the case in great detail about what the Biden administration is saying it's doing, what it's really doing, and what it could do in terms of investigating the lab leak theory.

The Biden administration says it wants an investigation but thinks the WHO should handle it. Why isn't that enough?

ROGIN: Right. Well, if the Biden administration doesn't like what the Pompeo and Trump team was doing -- OK, that's fine. But if they're really serious about getting to the bottom of how we got into this pandemic -- how seven billion people were made to suffer by this virus -- well then, it stands to reason that they shouldn't pawn off the investigation to the WHO, in my view, especially because the WHO wasted a year fumbling the investigation and then dismissing the lab leak therein.

Then hiring the best friends of the lab to investigate the lab, who went to the lab for a couple of hours and said we don't have to investigate the lab -- case closed -- and shut up if you want to look at the lab.

So after a year of that failure, for the Biden administration to then just say oh well, I guess we really need the WHO to figure it out, in my mind is a copout. And, you know, that's not to say that the Biden administration isn't looking into it as well.

They have tasked -- the White House has tasked the Intelligence Community to try to figure it out. But again, the U.S. Intelligence Community doesn't know. It's not that they believe --

BERMAN: Right.

ROGIN: -- one or the other, they just don't know.

So what I say and what a lot of people on Capitol Hill are increasingly saying is that no, we have to have a real investigation that has to be led by the United States government that has to look into the American collaborators with the Wuhan labs. And that means turning over some rocks in our own system to figure out what was going on, and that's difficult.

And then we have to press the Chinese government --

BERMAN: You want -- just to be clear, there -- if we're not going to get answers from the Chinese -- and you say we should press the Chinese government -- there is some data you think that is available here in the United States that Congress -- Republicans in Congress obviously have been going after but the Biden administration hasn't been so forthcoming.

What exactly is here available in the United States that would help this investigation?

ROGIN: Well, that's right, and it's not just the NIH and Anthony Fauci, although that is one small piece of it. A lot of people get overconcerned with the Fauci part of this.

What I'm saying is that the Wuhan labs, especially the one that's in virology, was doing work with U.S. aid, the EcoHealth Alliance. They had contracts from the Defense Department, the Homeland Security Department, the National Science Foundation, et cetera, et cetera. Hundreds of -- tens of millions of dollars' worth of contracts to work with risky viruses and see what's what.

And all of those documents should -- could tell us something about what the Wuhan labs might have been working on. That's not to say that we funded the research that caused the pandemic. It means that we know a lot about these labs that we're not saying -- that the administration hasn't revealed.

And also, all of that intelligence that went into that January 15th statement, which said that the labs had some sick researchers. "The Wall Street Journal" reported that those sick researchers went to the hospital in November 2019.

There's a whole body of intelligence that the Biden administration is sitting on that the State Department has in its files that they won't reveal for some reason. And I think what you're seeing is increasing calls -- mostly Republicans now, but starting to be Democrats, too, including on the bill that's going through the Senate right now -- for the State Department and the administration to release all of that information so that we can see what's what.

So we can see how much we actually know about the help that we were giving these Wuhan labs and maybe they -- we didn't fund the virus but maybe they took that help and then they used it in the other side of the lab to do some stuff we don't know about.

That's what the Trump administration alleged and that's what the Biden administration confirmed. So all I'm saying is we should check that out. We need to check that out in order to do our best to try to figure out how this virus started so we can predict -- prevent the next one and save the next round of 300 -- three million lives.

BERMAN: Check out and investigate the information that is here and is available.

Josh Rogin --

ROGIN: Now.

BERMAN: -- thanks so much for being with us this morning. It's a terrific column.

ROGIN: Thank you.

BERMAN: Just ahead, actor John Cena facing a fast and furious backlash -- first, for what he said about Taiwan and now for his apology.

[07:50:02]

KEILAR: I see what you did there, Berman -- I see that.

Plus, how the race to vaccinate is about to make someone in Ohio a millionaire tonight.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BERMAN: All right, here are five things to know for your new day.

"The Washington Post" reports Manhattan's top prosecutor has convened a special grand jury to decide whether to indict Donald Trump or anyone else associated with the Trump Organization. Investigators are looking into whether the company misled lenders and insurance companies about the value of its properties to get loans while also devaluing those properties to pay lower taxes. More on this in just a few moments.

KEILAR: And after five long days of silence, GOP leaders are finally condemning Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene's remarks comparing mask rules to the Holocaust. House Democrats are actually considering a resolution to censure Greene following her latest outrageous and reprehensible remarks. BERMAN: New court documents reveal a military veteran accused of bringing 11 homemade bombs to the Capitol insurrection repeatedly tried to meet with Sen. Ted Cruz to discuss election fraud. Lonnie Coffman is being indicted on 17 counts. He's pleaded not guilty to all of them.

KEILAR: Outrage over a Florida high school's decision to alter the yearbook photos of dozens of female students to cover up their cleavage. The school is accused of promoting a sexist double standard. The superintendent says there was an insufficient review before the girls' pictures were edited.

[07:55:06]

BERMAN: Some scary moments for a parachutist after he got stuck in powerlines and was dangling about 30 feet off the ground in Lake Elsinore, California. Firefighters used a safety bucket to rescue him after utility crews cut down -- cut the power. His injuries, luckily -- you're looking at that right there -- his injuries were just minor.

KEILAR: Yes, a very lucky guy.

Hollywood star and former pro-wrestler John Cena has touched off an international controversy as he tries to promote his new big-budget movie.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN CENA, ACTOR, "FAST & FURIOUS": You always say never turn your back on family, but you turned your back on me. Now your little family is in my world.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: All right, that's not actually the controversy. That was Cena in "F9," the new "Fast and Furious" movie. Not controversial, the movies, in and of themselves.

But it was Cena who apologized to the people of China after calling Taiwan a country during a promotional interview with a Taiwanese broadcaster. Now, Taiwan is a self-governed, Democratic island but China claims it is sovereign territory.

All of this brings to light how mindful businesses are about political sensitivities in China, the world's second-biggest economy and the world's biggest box office.

Joining us now, CNN anchor and chief national security correspondent Jim Sciutto. I want to play so people understand exactly how --

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yes.

BERMAN: -- abject his apology was -- kind of groveling -- that Cena gave. He did it in Mandarin, which is impressive that he can speak it, but listen. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN CENA, ACTOR (Speaking Foreign Language)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: I mean, Jim -- I mean, really, it's groveling before China. What's behind it?

SCIUTTO: It is. Well listen, first of all, why does this matter?

Taiwan -- the U.S. doesn't say this for diplomatic reasons. Taiwan is a country. I mean, it's an independent country. It's a functioning health democracy for many decades.

The U.S. sells it billions of dollars of weapons to protect itself and sells its aircraft carriers between China and Taiwan to demonstrate we view it as a state that should stay independent. So that's the background here.

Hollywood's business is dependent on the Chinese market and there's a reason why you see Chinese actors, Chinese scenes, Chinese storylines in many big Hollywood blockbuster films.

Look at "Megalodon." They had a Chinese star -- one of the heroes in there. Look at "The Great Wall." "The Martian" had a Chinese hero story there as well because they need Chinese people to buy tickets to see the movies. It's a big part of their business.

John Cena is not alone in Hollywood in towing that line, it's just that he did it in the clearest, most grovelly way possible. But it exposes that essential compromise there, right?

And it also matters, by the way, John and Brianna, that we know what China is capable of. They just took over Hong Kong, right, and violated a treaty there to take away what was not independent but it had its own system of government. And the U.S. military looks at China as a real threat to attempt to take over Taiwan in the next several years.

It's a real thing. Hollywood is on the business side of this.

KEILAR: And so, you know, obviously, the United States revered for democracy, freedom of ideas, and innovations at its best, and it seems like this is sort of accommodating adversaries of the U.S. But, of course, you have companies like this that are dependent not just on the U.S., as you said, on China.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

KEILAR: If there is so much money to be gained by Hollywood, how far does this go?

SCIUTTO: Listen, it's not just Hollywood, right? A lot of U.S. companies do business there and to do so they accommodate Chinese politics -- high-tech companies. I mean, there's a reason why Mark Zuckerberg went for a jog in Beijing

a few years ago despite the pollution, to say hey, please allow Facebook into China -- 1.3 billion potential users, right?

There's a reason why Google stood up to China when China puts in all these bizarre rules about what you can search and can't search, but now is taking a more diplomatic line because it's a big market and money talks.

And sadly, a lot of companies -- you know, they have stated policies on human rights, et cetera, but when it comes to China you don't see that in action.

KEILAR: I do think it's weird that people expect something more of John Cena than U.S. diplomats when it comes to the description of Taiwan versus China.

SCIUTTO: You're right. You're right. It's more grovelly --

KEILAR: "Fast & Furious" fans --

SCIUTTO: Yes, it's more grovelly but it's not essentially different from other things -- you know, other things you see from other businesses and the accommodations they make.

KEILAR: Yes. OK, so not Chinese ambassador from the U.S., John Cena. We think that he's ruled out that profession, of course.

And real quick, "Fast & Furious" fans, you guys? Yes, no?

BERMAN: Yes -- oh, absolutely.

KEILAR: OK, me, too.

SCIUTTO: I've never seen one and I'll make that confession now. And I'm sure I'll get grief on it on social media for it. Maybe I'll start with this one.

KEILAR: I don't even -- I don't even know --

BERMAN: You've never seen it?

KEILAR: How is that possible?

BERMAN: You've never seen it? How can you cover national security --

SCIUTTO: I know.

KEILAR: How do you even avoid it?

BERMAN: -- without having seen "Fast & Furious?"

KEILAR: It's like you can't even avoid "Fast & Furious."