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New Day

Former Virginia Senator John Warner Dies at 94; WaPo: Grand Jury Convened in Criminal Probe of Trump. Aired 8-8:30a ET

Aired May 26, 2021 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:00:00]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Maybe I'll start with this one.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: I don't even -- I don't even know.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: You've never seen it?

KEILAR: How is that possible?

BERMAN: You've never seen it? How can you cover national security without having seeing "Fast and the furious"?

KEILAR: It's like you can't even avoid "Fast and the Furious." It's like you try not to watch it.

BERMAN: What if -- what if there was -- it was a great movie. It was a great film. But what if there's a national security issues that involves high speed car chases and improbable, you know, hijackings? You would need see "Fast and the Furious."

SCIUTTO: I've got nine movies to watch this weekend, you know.

KEILAR: Yes, you do. We're going to check in on Monday and see if that happened. New Day continues right now.

BERMAN: I'm John Berman alongside Brianna Keilar on this New Day. A special grand jury will consider criminal charges in the Trump investigation. Could the former president himself be indicted? Plus Donald Trump's lawyer claims the Constitution gives the former president absolute immunity from a capital Riot lawsuit. Will that argument hold up in court?

KEILAR: And safety questions around this summer's Tokyo Olympics are the COVID risks too great to ignore? And the vaccination that is turning into a million dollar shot. Ohio's Governor joins us for a sneak peek of tonight's Vax-a-million reveal.

BERMAN: Good morning to our viewers here in the United States and all around the world, everyone reeling from the information that Jim Sciutto hasn't seen any of the "Fast and the Furious" movies. It is Wednesday, May 26th. Big legal trouble for citizen, Donald Trump, the top prosecutor in Manhattan has convened a special grand jury according to "The Washington Post," to hear evidence that could lead to a criminal indictment of the former president and from organization officials.

KEILAR: And investigators believe the President's company inflated its property values to secure better terms for loans while deflating those same property values for tax breaks. Joining us now a CNN correspondent and Early Start anchor, Laura Jarrett. OK, Laura, walk us through this. Where are we here?

LAURA JARRETT, CNN ANCHOR, EARLY START: So Brianna, for years, we heard the former president rail against the Russia investigation, Robert Mueller and of course other federal prosecutors investigating him but he was always relatively quiet about what one state prosecutor back home in New York was up to. It now turns out that the Manhattan District Attorney's Office is the one who possibly pose the greatest threat all along.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JARRETT (voice-over): A criminal investigation into the Trump Organization could now be in its final stage. "The Washington Post" reporting overnight, Manhattan's district attorney has convened a grand jury that's expected to decide whether to indict former President Trump, his company, or his business associates. That's according to two people familiar with the matter. According to "The Post," the grand jury is set to sit three days a week for as long as six months.

SHAYNA JACOBS, PART OF WASHINGTON POST TEAM WHO BROKE STORY ON TRUMP GRAND JURY: Certainly the district attorney could ultimately decide not to present any charges relating to anyone or the company itself at the end of the of the grand juries term. But it certainly appears as if things are developing, and things are progressing in the direction of some finality here.

JARRETT (voice-over): Trump echoing a familiar refrain last night seemingly responding to the grand jury reporting, saying quote, this is a continuation of the greatest witch hunt in American history. Manhattan's top prosecutor, Cy Vance, has been investigating the Trump Organization for over two years digging into possible cases of bank and tax fraud. No former president in U.S. history has ever been criminally charged. But Vance's team is examining Trump's business practices before taking office, which includes several of his properties like Trump Tower and his Seven Springs family estate just outside New York City.

JONATHAN O'CONNELL, REPORTER, THE WASHINGTON POST: We know that there's some interest in whether President Trump's company has properly paid taxes on some of their real estate properties. We know there's some interest from investigators about the chief financial officer Allen Weisselberg, and maybe some of his own personal activity -- tax activities.

JARRETT (voice-over): Last week, New York Attorney General Letitia James announced she had joined the Manhattan D.A.'s criminal probe. Her office is also continuing its civil investigation into the Trump Organization, which she discussed with CNN last year.

LETITIA JAMES (D-NY), ATTORNEY GENERAL: What we are investigating is the fact that the Trump Organization inflated their access -- assets for the purposes of obtaining loans and insurance coverage and deflated their assets for the same assets for the purposes of avoiding and evading tax liability by and or limiting it.

JARRETT (voice-over): One legal expert says Vance and James working together is potentially crucial in the outcome of the case.

DANIEL GOLDMAN, EX-LEAD COUNSEL TO HOUSE DEMS FOR TRUMP'S 1ST IMPEACHMENT: What that definitely shows is there is some evidence that a crime was committed. We don't know who by whom. We don't know what the crime is. And we're not certain that a grand jury will indict. But it is a more significant step than you might otherwise have in convening a grand jury.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

[08:05:11]

JARRETT: Now CNN reached out to the Manhattan District Attorney's Office, they declined to comment. CNN also reached out to the Trump Organization. We've not heard back. The former president, meanwhile, blasting the leak of the grand jury news to the press suggesting, New York City prosecutors should be more focused on the city's crime rate instead of Donald Trump. John?

BERMAN: All right, Laura Jarrett, thank you very much for that. Let's bring in CNN legal analyst and criminal defense attorney Joey Jackson, as well as CNN legal analyst and former prosecutor Paul Callan. Joey, let me start with you on the defense here. You're a lawyer for Donald Trump, your counselor to Donald J. Trump right now. You see this report in "The Washington Post" in a special grand jury convened. Your reaction is?

JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I'm very concerned. And here's why. Listen, that's my former office, the Manhattan District Attorney's Office. They investigate cases. And this case is predicated upon records. It's not about circumstantial evidence. It's about bank records. It's about tax documents. It's about loan applications. It's about concrete matters. And the reason that concerns you, John, is because we defense attorneys cross examine people and generally we cross examine the people as to their perceptions, their misperceptions, what they thought they saw, what they didn't see, it's very difficult to cross examine a bank record and a tax document that indicates what it does, and so at the end of the day, very concerning.

Now, one quick point, and that's this, we should hasten to add that a grand jury consists of 23 people, right? Only a simple majority need to vote out an indictment. And indictment simply means there's probable cause to believe that a crime is committed and the subject of the investigation committed it. Its evidence we defense attorneys always say of nothing. So let's see what happens moving forward.

BERMAN: You agree you concur trouble? PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I absolutely concur. And I think the thing that I look at here, and I think it's very, very important, Cyrus Vance, who's the district attorney of New York County, didn't run for reelection. He's leaving office in January. This could be his last trophy indictment before he leaves office. And, you know, a famous New York appellate judge once said, you can indict a -- a D.A. could get a ham sandwich indicted. Hey, listen.

Trump is the Big Mac of this situation. So if Cyrus Vance wants to indict Trump, he's been putting this investigation together for two years, thousands if not millions of documents. He's working in conjunction with the Attorney General of the state. Everything looks like he's looking to get an indictment before he leaves office.

BERMAN: Let me say the timing also lines up right. Give you a special grand jury a six month window. Cy Vance has six months roughly --

CALLAN: Exactly.

BERMAN: -- left in his term. I don't know if that's the point there or not. Well, how is the grand jury process work? Joey just laid out 23 grand jurors only need majority, only need probable cause. What else do we need to know?

CALLAN: You know, John, it's an interesting thing, and very few people actually get to see what happens inside a jury room. Now prosecutors do because they go in and work with the grand jury. And when you go into the room, there are 23 ordinary people sitting there in seats, you know, the little old lady in the back of the room knitting maybe because they're hearing lots of different cases normally.

This grand jury will only be hearing one case, the case involving the Trump Organization. And it will be working with the same set of prosecutors constantly as evidence is presented. And that grand jury then has the right to vote for what's called a true biller and indictment or they can walk away from and say there's not enough evidence and we'll dismiss. But the prosecutors can have enormous influence on those 23 people. They get to know the grand jurors, the grand jurors kind of go along with what the D.A. suggests through their tone of voice and the way they present the case.

BERMAN: But Joey, you brought up the fact that you have documents, your bank records --

JACKSON: Yes.

BERMAN: -- and tax returns that have only now been available for a short period of time.

JACKSON: Since February --

BERMAN: Since February, to investigators. What else do prosecutors have, what or who the prosecutors have to work with here?

JACKSON: So that's an open question, right? The first thing, of course, and the reason I mentioned documents, John, is because that's evidence, right? We want -- we can always cross examine people about what they saw, what they didn't see, what their statements are, do they have credibility? You either signed a document, John, or you did not. You either gave an indication under penalty of perjury and a document or you did not. You either release tax returns that were appropriate, not released them but file them that were appropriate or not.

But in addition to that, there are witnesses, there are people who apparently worked within the organization that may have some knowledge as to how it function as to who did what, as to what filings were made, as to who permitted those filings to be made. And those become credibility determinations. But when you have a person who gives you the indication of the underpinnings of an organization, who's doing what, who authorized what, how things work, and you match that with the document, boy, is that powerful and damning evidence. I believe that's what the grand jury is evaluating in various exhibits. And I think that based upon that there'll be an indict here.

[08:10:00]

CALLAN: Well, Joey is talking about Weisselberg, too. Now he's --

JACKSON: Right.

CALLAN: Now he's the accountant for the Trump Organization. He goes way back to Fred Trump days, Trump's father when he founded the organization. He knows where the bodies are buried. He's cooperated in the past with the feds in the investigation. So the question is, will he cooperate with the Cyrus Vance grand jury and give evidence that could lead to Trump's indictment?

BERMAN: Yes or no answer. The Prosecutors think they have a case here?

CALLAN: I think they think they have a case that would be surprising if we don't see an indictment coming down.

BERMAN: Yes or no?

JACKSON: John, yes, prosecutors control the grand jury. They act as the judge. The jury executioner, the grand jury does what a prosecution wants indictments are imminent.

BERMAN: Joey Jackson, Paul Callan, thank you for that.

JACKSON: Always.

CALLAN: Thank you John.

BERMAN: Much more on this next. Plus Republicans finally condemn Marjorie Taylor Greene for her despicable remarks. Could real consequences come? Next.

KEILAR: Plus brand new reporting on the U.S. troop withdrawal from Afghanistan. What the Pentagon plans for Afghans who helped the U.S. over the course of the war.

And getting richer just for getting a COVID shot, Ohio gets ready to reveal the Vax-a-million lottery winner.

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[08:14:57]

BERMAN: Sad news just in to CNN, former Virginia Republican Senator John Warner has died, died of heart failure. Warner was a veteran of World War II, the Korean War. He served three decades in the Senate, I think five terms, following a stint as U.S. secretary of the navy.

[08:15:03]

Before being elected to the Senate, Warner married actress Elizabeth Taylor. He was her sixth husband. His wife Jeanne and his daughter were said to be at his side when he passed away last night. John Warner, an American institution. 94.

KEIALAR: Yeah, very sad. An institution, as you said, Berman.

Former President Trump responding to news of the grand jury convening. Without specifically referencing "The Washington Post" report, Trump said this in a statement, quote: This is a continuation of the greatest witch hunt in American history. It began the day I came down the escalator in Trump Tower and it's never stopped.

Let's talk about this now with chief political correspondent Dana Bash, who's also co-anchor of "STATE OF THE UNION" and CNN reporter Gabby Orr as well.

OK, Dana. What did you think? What's your reaction to this news about the grand jury?

DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, to the grand jury, it's obviously not good news for the former president. We don't know so many things. We don't know most things about what they are actually convened for and whether or not they are trying to force his old business partner or the person who did all of his books, Weisselberg, to flip or whether or not they really have the goods on the former president.

But what we do know is that the reaction that Trump had was, don't you think at this point, they just have files and they just hit F3, F4, F5 --

KEILAR: That's right.

BASH: Witch hunt.

KEILAR: It's rigged.

BASH: Right, it was as predictable as it comes. And this is, for him, he likes to play the victim. And for the small portion of Republicans who still follow him and still listen to the nonsense that people who support him push forward, frankly, the lies, that works. But that circle -- it exists, but it's getting smaller.

KEILAR: It's not surprising this was his reaction, right?

GABBY ORR, CNN REPORTER: No, absolutely. As Dana said, it's common for him to use this refrain, that this is a witch hunt. This is politically motivated, and to shift the focus elsewhere. He talked in the statement about the crime rates increasing in New York City and why isn't the Manhattan district attorney focusing on that? It's just a common refrain that we've heard over and over again.

And if you're inside Trump world at this point and seeing that a grand jury has been convened, that's obviously a very serious step and it's one that comes after almost two years of stagnation in this investigation. You have to feel as though the walls might be closing in.

KEILAR: I want to talk with you guys about Marjorie Taylor Greene because what we're seeing happen in Congress and her reaction to these holocaust remarks. Not so long ago, in a land not so far away, Dana Bash and I covered Congress together, and I cannot imagine that this would have ever flown even -- what was the -- not even ten years ago, right? Ten years ago?

You have Marjorie Taylor Greene saying these things about the Holocaust and finally, after five days, McCarthy, what, feels pressure from donors and has to say something and finally you have Republican leaders coming out and saying, yeah, that's not okay but it's also kind of toothless?

BASH: When you and I were covering Congress, there were people who would say nutty things.

KEILAR: Yes.

BASH: They were in the minority, and they were ignored. And the leadership could ignore them because they didn't really matter, frankly. She matters, and the reason she matters is because of the "D" word you just said, donor. Not so much the kind of donors that McCarthy is going after, the big donors, but the small dollar fundraisers. The small-dollar donors, I should say.

And she is a force. And it is such a -- an explanation of where the Republican Party is right now that she is such a force because they really feed on all of these people who very, very much like to hear the lies and like to hear the outrage and the outrageous things that people like Marjorie Taylor Greene says.

You know, and long before you had Marjorie Taylor Greene, you had a Republican named Steve King who was kind of the pariah inside the House GOP conference.

KEILAR: Who knew they'd miss him? Miss those days, right?

ORR: I have to look at how Trump handled him as a road map for this situation as well. He never outright condemned Steve King but he did slowly distance himself from him.

We know that the former president will be rallying in Georgia at some point this summer. So, will he embrace, bear hug Marjorie Taylor Greene on that rally stage? I think that's the big question.

BASH: And I just want to add, the one difference is that with Steve King, McCarthy did punish him. McCarthy did, you know, take steps against him. It was the Democrats who took steps against Marjorie Taylor Greene.

[08:20:02]

KEILAR: That's right.

BASH: Not Kevin McCarthy.

KEILAR: I mean, look, Kevin McCarthy -- and just to put a finer point on this, Kevin McCarthy, Marjorie Taylor Greene endorsed the comment of someone calling him a feckless "C" word and he's let it stand, okay?

So that's -- that tells you all you need to know about what flies here.

I want to talk to you guys about a "Politico" report, because "Politico's" reporting that you actually have Donald Trump and Newt Gingrich kind of joining up partners in crime to come up with a new Contract for America.

What do you think about this?

ORR: I think this is -- very much led by Donald Trump's allies and probably less so by Trump himself. You know, he has indicated for the past six months now that all he wants to talk about is the 2020 election. And his allies are starting to see that that's -- his base is losing interest in that. Republicans on Capitol Hill want to shift their focus to items and policy that will actually help them win midterm elections, not alienate key parts of the party.

So this is a push to get him to shift his attention elsewhere. I think the big question is whether that actually works. I mean, he's not shown any interest so far in talking about anything but 2020 election and voting reform.

BASH: My understanding is he really doesn't care about the things in the new policy document that Newt Gingrich and other allies are pushing. The only thing he wants to talk about, not just in his public statements, but in private, is the 2020 election and push the lies. Even with his friends and allies, never mind what he is doing in public and so exactly what you are hearing, Gabby, I'm told this is an attempt to try to redirect him or direct him towards the policy issues that Republicans say they need to talk about. If they have any shot at 2022.

KEILAR: Well, good luck with that, I say. Dana Bash, Gabby Orr, thank you so much for being with us this morning.

Up next -- what Democrats could do if the GOP kills a bipartisan commission to investigate the January 6th insurrection?

BERMAN: And why Americans may not be the only ones evacuated when U.S. troops leave Afghanistan.

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[08:26:09]

BERMAN: New this morning, Senate Democrats Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema pleading with Republicans hell-bent on killing a bipartisan commission to investigate the January 6 Capitol attack to reverse course. But if they won't, and really, there's little sign that they will, what other options are out there?

John Avlon with a "Reality Check."

JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: There are few defining crises in American history known instantly by their date. December 7th, November 22nd, September 11th, and now we can add January 6th to that list. After all those other national tragedies, there were independent bipartisan commissions convened to investigate what happened so it wouldn't happen again. The Roberts Commission, the Warren Commission, the 9/11 Commission.

But this time, patriotism and precedent don't seem to apply because it looks like Republicans will kill a bipartisan January 6th Commission for cynical, political reasons. They are afraid new information could hurt them in the next election. They're being intimidated by Trumpist thugs peddling the big lie.

This is the moral equivalent of 9/11 truthers being allowed to derail a 9/11 commissions. But what can Democrats do in response? Glad you asked.

Here are three options. First, if Republicans really want to filibuster a bipartisan commission to death, make them really filibuster it, out loud, on the Senate floor. This idea floated by journalist Jonathan Alter makes sense. With a majority vote, the Democrats could force Republicans to defend the indefensible. The O.G. talking filibuster is a pain. It's public.

But it's entirely consistent with the idea that filibusters are supposed to be stands of conscience, not secret rubber stamps for partisan obstruction. Republicans want to stop talking about the attack on our Capitol so make them talk about it. For a long time as the Capitol police and the country look on.

This just might make Republicans reconsider their reflexive opposition and offer some amendments or they might just double down on their endorsement of insurrection amnesia in which case there's plan B, a House select committee with a twist. Democrats could convene a committee asking Republican John Katko who negotiated the deal to serve as co-chair. Kevin McCarthy is planning to attack the house committee as partisan using this as an excuse to ignore its findings.

So he's likely to appoint big-lie backers. That also runs the risk of making Republicans look bad in the ensuing circus. The committee would have subpoena power to get testimony from witnesses ranging from McCarthy himself to Trump chief of staff Mark Meadows and Vice President Pence. They'd no doubt revisit those subpoenas in court but the longer that delay tactic drags on, the closer it could bring them to the election which is something they desperately want to avoid.

The third option is unchartered territory but then so is the attack on our Capitol. This idea was laid out by a congressional scholar. The attorney general would appoint a special counsel to investigate the insurrection and sedition given that President Biden was a part in the election. They could jeopardize Justice Department lawyers with subpoena powers to look at digital records surrounding the attack.

He would convene a bipartisan citizens commission led by respective figures like Leon Panetta and Robert Gates, Jeh Johnson or Fran Townsend to hold public hearings, resulting in an official report and recommendations. This would in effect reverse engineer the bipartisan commission that Republicans rejected.

These alternatives are hardball, but they are necessary because we cannot allow democracy's norms to be diminished any further. A failure to reason together across partisan lines after an attack on our Capitol will only embolden future insurrection attempts. And that's unacceptable.

We've got to defend our democracy by any lawful means necessary. And that's your "Reality Check."

BERMAN: John, stick around because I want you to see this deeply revealing interview that shines new light on the election audit, air quotes, in Maricopa County, Arizona. This is ground zero for the people trying to promote the big lie about the last election.

This audit, air quotes, is being driven by the Senate President Karen Fann, a Republican. Now, she declined a dozen requests for an interview but CNN's Kyung Lah did.

[08:30:00]