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China Allows 3 Children; Mystery Illness Strikes U.S. Personnel; Florida Bans Cruise Lines Requiring Vaccines; 100 Years Since Tulsa Race Massacre. Aired 8:30-9a ET

Aired May 31, 2021 - 08:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:30:00]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: You don't -- you know, if Biden wants to move this more back to the pervious status quo of the U.S. as a kind of honest broker between the two sides, he's going to have just as many challenges with a Bennett as he had arguably with -- with Netanyahu.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: It's amazing to think, though, of Netanyahu perhaps not being there, right?

SCIUTTO: It is.

KEILAR: He's become so synonymous for us and all the drama that we've covered here over the last years.

SCIUTTO: More than two decades, yes.

KEILAR: Exactly.

OK, let's -- let's turn to China because there's an interesting development there as they're trying to combat, which is really an aging population and not having the young people to replace aging folks. They are switching from -- everyone's familiar with the one child policy. It's been the two child policy. Now it is the three child policy.

SCIUTTO: The reason they're doing this one is, it's not working. You know, it's interesting, China forced the one child policy on its population. And, by the way, this was not a friendly policy.

KEILAR: That's right.

SCIUTTO: I mean they used -- they used financial penalties. There were allegations of forced sterilization. I mean this was a massive population control campaign. But what they did is that they -- it worked too well, right? So now they don't have enough babies being born. So the population's getting older. So they switched that to a two child policy a couple of years ago -- a few years ago. What happened was that many Chinese parents weren't interested. That they were happy --

KEILAR: If you're used to having one child -- SCIUTTO: It's a little bit of that and also, you know, there's a focus your resources on the one child.

KEILAR: Sure.

SCIUTTO: It's a highly competitive society. Get -- you know, send them to the best schools, all that kind of stuff.

So now, well, if that didn't work, let's try a three child policy. It's not clear that it will work.

KEILAR: But what -- yes, exactly, because if you have a two child policy that's not working, why does just making it a three child policy make it work?

SCIUTTO: It's a question. I mean their hope is that like in the cities couples behave one way, maybe outside the cities they'll behave in another way, will be more likely to have kids. I mean it's -- it's a remarkable switch for that country in just the span of a few years.

KEILAR: All right, Jim, great to see you this morning.

SCIUTTO: Nice to see you too.

KEILAR: We'll see you at the top of the hour.

SCIUTTO: I'll be back.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: So, growing concerns this morning over the mystery illness that has sickened more than 100 U.S. diplomats, spies, and troops around the world. Victims of the so-called Havana syndrome have reported symptoms including sudden vertigo, nausea and debilitating headaches. Since the incidents began in late 2016 in Cuba, investigators have struggled to determine what or who is causing this. There have also been cases reported Russia, China, and even now on U.S. soil not far from the White House.

Joining me now is former CIA senior intelligence officer Marc Polymeropoulos. In December of 2017 he suffered a mysterious attack while on assignment in Moscow. He's also the author of a new book called "Clarity in Crisis: Leadership Lessons from the CIA."

Marc, thank you so much for being with us.

You called your bout with what you believe to be Havana syndrome the most terrifying experience in your life. What were the symptoms like? What did it feel like?

MARC POLYMEROPOULOS, FORMER CIA SENIOR INTELLIGENCE OFFICER: Sure. So, you know, I made a trip to Moscow in December of 2017 and I woke up in the middle of the night early in the trip and I had an incredible case of vertigo. You know, the room was spinning. I had tinnitus, which was ringing in my ears. You know, a brutal headache. And -- and, you know, as I've -- as I've kind of thought about it, you know, quite some time, I spent years in Afghanistan and Iraq and I put my life in danger. But this was by far the most terrifying experience of my life. I just -- you know, it was something of -- of total unknown and to this day, you know, I never forget it.

BERMAN: The unknown can be terrifying, right? I mean what did you think was going on for all that time?

POLYMEROPOULOS: So, you know, at first I wasn't quite sure. You know, at first, you know, maybe you think that it's a case of food poisoning. But then as the symptoms continue and then when I get back to the United States in -- in early 2018, I start this incredible medical journey which lasts to this day. I mean I've had a, you know, a splitting headache in the back of my head for three straight years. So it's -- you know, it's chronic pain, which is debilitating, but also, you know, there's a mental health aspect to it, too. So it's been incredibly trying. And, you know, I -- that's why I sympathize and I advocate on the -- on behalf of others, the other victims, because this has been, you know, a pretty tough experience.

BERMAN: You're advocating. To whom and for what at this point? What more do you need the U.S. government to do here?

POLYMEROPOULOS: Sure. It's a great question because I, you know, I have to -- I eventually, last October, had to go public and basically plead with -- with the CIA and the leadership at that time to send me to Walter Reed and Walter Reed's National Interrupt Center of Excellence is the world's most renowned traumatic brain injury program. And I finally got there. And I tell you, you know, the month there saved me. I might not be here today because it gave me both tools and hope. But for others, they have to get there as well. And so, you know, that's why I push this so strongly because there is a place where we can send victims. And I'd like to see all the U.S. government, you know, personnel who have been affected go there.

BERMAN: Is there -- do you have a sense that there's more of an acceptance about this now and a willingness to take this head on?

POLYMEROPOULOS: Yes, it's been pretty extraordinary. I'll -- you know, I give great credit to the new director of the CIA, Bill Burns. He's taken a personal interest in my case and in others. He's met with victims., He's visited Walter Reed. He's expressed, you know, his commitment to getting better health care for officers, as well as finding out who did this. And so I think we've turned a corner. But if -- as you see, you know, the -- the letter last week written by State Department employees affected, I -- you know, I think there's still a ways to go for a real whole of government approach.

BERMAN: I want to change subjects here. You actually have an op-ed in "The Washington Examiner" today. It is Memorial Day, which is the day that we honor American service members lost to us.

[08:35:05]

POLYMEROPOULOS: Right.

BERMAN: But you served in the CIA, right, which is different, but related. And you talk about what it's like to see that famous memorial wall, which is, I guess, 137 at this point, stars there, not names but stars there remembering those lost in the CIA service. So what is this like to you?

POLYMEROPOULOS: So Memorial Day to me is -- is very special as well. Look, there's 137 stars on that wall. The CIA's clandestine service is a pretty small organization. I know many of those who paid the ultimate sacrifice. I worked with them. Sometimes, you know, I was involved in those -- in those operations. So, you know, when I walk by that wall, you know, it's a -- it's a feeling, you know, almost of a punch in the gut. And CIA, you know, is an indispensable institution and, you know, I wrote the op-ed so Americans can understand what the agency means and the sacrifices that the men and women who really work in the shadows, the sacrifices that they make.

BERMAN: And we do honor your sacrifice and that sacrifice.

On a policy point, it's an -- it's an interesting year in terms of Memorial Day and our people in service because the United States is pulling out of Afghanistan. And that is something that's been in the bloodstream for, you know, two decades at this point. I'm just wondering what your thoughts on are on that?

POLYMEROPOULOS: So, you know, this is something I feel very passionately about. I served as a base chief in Afghanistan for a year and so, you know, I look at the Afghan withdrawal and the total withdrawal, you know, in three different -- three different bins.

First and foremost, I worry that Afghanistan will turn into a failed state again, which means, you know, ungoverned spaces and that's a breeding ground for terrorism. The second is, of course, the men and women of Afghanistan who help the United States for 20 years. You know, I fear that we're leaving them and some pretty awful things might happen. And it's impossible for the U.S. government in the future to gain the trust of others if we don't take care of those that helped us.

And the final piece, in terms of actual counterterrorism policy, you know, the boots on the ground is important for the intelligence community as well because we need to collect human intelligence. And without U.S. military on the ground, it's going to be very difficult to do so.

BERMAN: Marc Polymeropoulos, we appreciate your time this morning. And back where we started, we're glad you're getting the help you finally need or you need finally to deal with the Havana syndrome.

Appreciate you being with us.

POLYMEROPOULOS: Thank you very much. Thank you.

BERMAN: Next, Florida Governor Ron DeSantis on a collision course with the cruise ship industry over vaccinations.

KEILAR: And two very different sides of Memorial Day in America, with some celebrating the end of lockdowns and others in solemn remembrance of those lost in America's longest war.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [08:41:22]

BERMAN: Florida Governor Ron DeSantis clashing with cruise lines over a law he signed banning businesses from asking customers whether they had been vaccinated against coronavirus. Cruise ship operators are ready to set sail but say the order may keep them anchored.

CNN's Alison Kosik joins us now with more.

This is turning into a real fight, Alison.

ALISON KOSIK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It really is.

Good morning, John.

You know, it's hard to not call out the irony of this. The state of Florida sued the Biden administration and the CDC to reopen cruising immediately. But Florida Governor Ron DeSantis is also standing in the way of ships getting back in the water. DeSantis recently signed a law which prohibits businesses, including the cruise industry, from asking customers and employees if they have been vaccinated against COVID-19. The thing is, part of the CDC's updated guidance gives the green light to cruise lines to set sail again if at least 95 percent of cruise members and 95 percent of passengers are vaccinated. But if they can't ask, how will they know? It's leaving cruise lines in a real tough spot, essentially with them wanting to relaunch this summer.

DeSantis is digging in and says he has no intention of allowing an exemption for cruise lines, telling "The Orlando Sentinel," we are going to enforce Florida law. We have laws that protect the people and the privacy of our citizens, and we are going to enforce it.

So what's a cruise line to do? The CEO of Norwegian Cruise Line said the company may actually avoid the state altogether, suspending operations out of its port in Florida if the governor doesn't allow COVID-19 checks for passengers and crew. During the company's quarterly earnings call that happened last week, CEO Frank Del Rio said there are other states Norwegian operates from, meaning it could move its ships elsewhere.

After being banned from sailing because of the pandemic and losing billions of dollars, the cruise industry is trying to stay afloat here. It also brings in a huge amount of revenue to Florida and provides tens of thousands of jobs in the state. But with Governor DeSantis not budging on this, at least at the moment, John, this looks like it's turning into a real face-off between the cruise lines and the governor.

BERMAN: Yes, it's really interesting to see. You know, supposedly pro- business Republicans now feuding with the cruise lines. This could cost jobs in Florida.

KOSIK: Yes. Exactly. We'll see what happens.

BERMAN: Alison Kosik, thank you very much. So 100 years ago today, her great uncle's department store was burned

down during the Tulsa Massacre. She tells us her family's story as the DHS warns that white supremacists may be looking to target this anniversary.

KEILAR: And Democrats in Texas blocking a restrictive voting bill by simply walking out.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:48:01]

KEILAR: Today marks 100 years since the Tulsa Massacre. Historians believe as many as 300 people died when a white mob looted and burned an area of Tulsa known as Black Wall Street, so named for its thriving black-owned businesses. That's according to the Tulsa Historical Society and Museum.

One of the businesses burned down was Elliot's Department Store. It was owned by T.J. Elliot and his great niece, Mary Elliot is with us now. She is also the curator of the National Museum of African- American History and Culture.

Mary, thank you so much for being with us on this -- this very important day.

Tell us a little bit about your family's story and what it was for your uncle to own this business and so many others.

MARY ELLIOTT, CURATOR, NATIONAL MUSEUM OF AFRICAN-AMERICAN HISTORY ANC CULTURE: Well, so my uncle had eight siblings and they migrated from Mississippi to Indian Territory, which wasn't a state yet until 1907. They migrated in the 1890s. And they saw Indian Territory as a frontier for freedom, as many black people did at that time.

And they opened several businesses, owned several hundred acres of land, and then ultimately, ultimately, they planned to move into Tulsa to open their second business, their second department store. They owned a hotel, a theater, a bank, and a major department store in Muskogee, and then they opened their second one in Tulsa.

The second one in Tulsa, he actually worked with a gentleman named S.D. Hooker. S.D. Hooker maintained that branch. And so these men worked and thrived and, you know, it's unfortunate that what happened on May 31st in 1921 destroyed all of that.

KEILAR: They found opportunity, which was so unusual for the black community at that point in time. And this was a thriving utopia. And it was destroyed. I wonder what, as Americans are discovering the history of this event, what was the story that was passed down over generations in your family?

[08:50:00]

ELLIOTT: Well, you know, we knew about the family in Oklahoma, and we actually visited the store in Muskogee. It was still in the family until the '70s or '80s.

KEILAR: Oh, wow.

ELLIOTT: But really didn't know as much about Tulsa, although we had family in Tulsa, around the 1920s after -- even after 1921. And T.J., my uncle, actually lived in Muskogee but the business was in Tulsa. And so I found out about relatives, my Aunt Nora, who actually was 12 years old at the time of the massacre, and her family was forced to the state fairgrounds at the internment camp, and it was a white employer of her parents who came and got them out of the internment camp. And she ultimately went on to Oklahoma City, graduated from Langston and became the first executive director of the Washington Bureau on the National Urban League working on civil rights, as well as with Lyndon Johnson.

So, you know, the thing I think about what happened is, I had a niece who called me recently in tears because someone called her the "n" word. For the first time that happened to her.

KEILAR: How old was she?

ELLIOTT: And -- she's 21, right? And that happened to me when I was 10. And what I had to tell her was, you know, look, you know who you are, you know who you are, and there's a thing that they say, when you argue with a fool, no one knows who's the fool. And if you stand firm with who you are, in who you are, people on the outside will see all that vitriol and hate and see the person who's actually the one that's in the wrong, you know? So I think that one of the things we learned was who we are as a community, always growing up, that there's strength and pride in who we are.

KEILAR: Well, I think it is -- I think it's wonderful, and also sad that people are just learning about this event, but it's something that is -- I think it really is a teachable moment as they look back and understand history that perhaps they weren't taught in school.

Mary Elliott, thank you so much for being with us and for sharing your personal connection to this anniversary. We appreciate it.

ELLIOTT: You're very welcome.

KEILAR: The richest black neighborhood in America, and that's what we were talking about, that was ripped apart by a violent white mob. The CNN film "Dreamland: The Burning of Black Wall Street," will be premiering tonight on 9:00 p.m. Eastern.

And just ahead on this Memorial Day, the disconnect between military families and civilians. Some are celebrating, and others are grieving, as America's longest war is coming to an end.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:56:48]

BERMAN: We have some pictures I would like to show you, I think, of the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier in Arlington. Live pictures right now. That is, of course, is where the president and vice president will be later today laying a wreath.

It is Memorial Day. What exactly does that mean? It's an important question. It's also the subject of a brand new column, a "Homefront" column, written by Brianna Keilar this morning. And it's really a wonderful column, Brianna.

KEILAR: Oh, thank you, John. Yes, I was thinking yesterday, and I just sat down and started to write because I was thinking so much about how there are two Memorial Days in this country that, you know, for most civilians, this is a -- it's a nice long weekend, maybe they -- they travel, they get together with family and friends, they grill out. And, look, a lot of military families are doing that, too. But, you know, in my house, and in the house of many military connected folks, Memorial Day kind of approaches like the anniversary of the death of a loved one. And it -- you feel it. It settles kind of over the house. And this year it is particularly somber because the war in Afghanistan is winding down.

And so that was something that I just wanted to discuss after having interviewed 20 service members, veterans, family members, including some little kids, parents, who have experienced a lot from the war in Afghanistan. And they're really, you know, they're really experiencing this Memorial Day in -- in an even different way than they've experienced past ones.

BERMAN: You know, Jason Cander (ph), I was reading something he wrote moments ago. I think for a lost us who didn't serve -- we're inclined to thank service members on Memorial Day. It's actually not what Memorial Day is about specifically. And what Cander says is instead of thanking a service member, ask a veteran or ask a service member to tell you a story about someone that they served with, someone that they know who they lost, and it puts a whole different perspective on it.

KEILAR: I think it does. And, look, I think there's a reticence sometimes on the part of civilians. They feel like they don't want to pry, right? But this is something that is what Memorial Day is about, people who have sacrificed. And I would also argue that, of course, there are people who we have lost in war, but there are lots of people who came home and from the mental scars of war we have also lost them as well to suicide. And those are folks that I really like to remember as well on this day.

It's really important to learn the story. If you are disconnected from the military, which many people, most Americans are at any given time here recently, you've had less than half of a percent of Americans who are serving active duty, you know, they don't necessarily understand the experience. But I think that it's an important thing to strive for.

One of the moms who I spoke with who lost her son to suicide said, it's so important as Americans that we all understand this because it really is too much to put on just a small part of the American population.

BERMAN: Well, look, it's a really wonderful column. Everyone should go read it.

[09:00:00]

And I think you come at it from such an interesting perspective, someone who grew up not part of a military family but now is very much a part of that family.