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Biden Calls Putin Worthy Adversary Ahead of Tense Meeting; American Judge Calls for Prisoner Swap Between Russia, U.S.; Sen. Mitch McConnell (R-KY) Says, Highly Unlikely He'd Confirm Biden Pick in 2024. Aired 7-7:30a ET

Aired June 15, 2021 - 07:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

HAGAR CHEMALI, FORMER SPOKESWOMAN FOR THE U.S. MISSION TO THE U.N.: To call China out to strong base, in particular, the French and the Germans.

[07:00:03]

They still have very close economic ties, as do we, by the way. I mean, we have close economic ties, but we have to learn, and this is President Biden's theme, we have to learn how to deal with adversaries, how to deal with countries, and leaders who are difficult, who work against us, and still find ways to agree on certain things or to negotiate. And we can't be weak in the face of them but that doesn't mean we can't talk to them also.

And so when NATO came out to say that China was a quote, systemic challenge, that is wrong for NATO. You know, they tried to say that China is not in the north Atlantic hemisphere. That's not really a relevant argument. NATO is in Afghanistan. So that doesn't really make much sense. But it was still -- it's still a -- it's a strong step. And when you have a group of countries like that, that's the message China needs to hear.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN NEW DAY: Brianna?

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN NEW DAY: And certainly he is there talking to allies of America and trying to turn a page and really been in this position of having to explain for the last four years. And this is part of what he said, David Gregory, about Republicans and pushing, as he put it, phony populism.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, U.S. PRESIDENT: It is a shock and surprise that what's happened in terms of the consequence of President Trump's phony populism has happened. And it is disappointing that so many of my Republican colleagues in the Senate who I know no better have been reluctant to take on, for example, in an investigation because they're worried about being primaried.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: I think it's really interesting there. You know, it's unusual for, for a president to speak in such frank terms about a predecessor and our predecessor's political movement. But certainly this is not, this isn't usual, this turning of the page from Trump to Biden.

DAVID GREGORY, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, and one of the reasons I think he's addressing it is that he understands his colleagues on the world stage are paying attention to all of this too. You know, this whole idea of, well, America is back but for how long? You know, anybody can look at what's happening in Washington and look at our political system and see that Trump has not gone away. Trumpism has not gone away. So what does that mean for America and the world?

These are very big questions about how America plays in the rest of the world. Vladimir Putin is watching and he's tried to -- you know, he's gone through cycles of feeling isolated by a united west, and then seeing less unity and finding ways to create those brakes in that western alliance. And so I think so much of the meeting tomorrow is about theater because it's always about theater for Putin. He wants legitimacy. He likes that there's a big build up to all of this.

So the real question is, are there areas where this administration and Putin can actually cooperate and can they find some way to bring some leverage on Putin to stop the thing he can do the best, which is to be disruptive, let alone what he's doing regionally, but to be disruptive with cyberattacks.

So I think Biden is addressing that to try to say to the world community that he's on the stage with, look, not even my Republican colleagues believe in all of this, but there's so much fear. So, you know, let's try to move in a concerted direction again. That's going to take some time.

KEILAR: But like you said, Trump is gone but for how long? I mean, Putin has lasted through several American presidents, and the question is, does Trump come back? Is there someone like Trump who comes in here in, in three or four years? And I also noticed we spoke with the secretary general of NATO last week, and you really get the sense talking to officials they don't feel that the Trump is securely out of the way.

GREGORY: Right? And, again, what does a Biden presidency actually look like in terms of the commitment of the United States overseas? You know, what's the United States posture against China over trade, for example, as well as, you know, regional concerns that are security concerns versus how the Europeans play it.

So I think we're in a much different place. I mean, we've come through a period under, under President Bush, of projection of American power in the rest of the world, a sort of unwinding of that by Biden and then a complete unwinding by Trump, and now Biden, who represents a real return to an older way of doing business in Europe. And I don't know that it's clear exactly what that means in terms of American engagement against Russia, against China. And I think there's a lot of our traditional allies who are waiting to see and Putin in particular is going to wait to see and is going to try to take Biden's measure.

But, again, I thought it was interesting that there's a talk of prisoner exchanges.

[07:05:00]

You know, Putin is also shrewd enough to know where to cooperate, as he did after 9/11, as he did in trying to temper Iran's nuclear program. He finds ways to communicate and to negotiate with the American president where he can as long as it keeps, you know, giving him room.

KEILAR: John, I think Biden was sort of setting that expectation himself, saying that Putin is bright and tough and a worthy adversary just ahead of this meeting there.

BERMAN: It's been like two weeks of pre-game from both leaders, really, from both countries leading up to this summer tomorrow. I know everyone is trying to lower the bar but the bar is what it is at this point. I think the whole world is watching to see how these two men behave next to each other.

Both everyone stand by for a second here. We want to reset. Because in just moments, we're going to hear from President Biden as he meets with E.U. leaders. This comes just before the most consequential stretch of his European tour.

Moments ago, he did enter a meeting with E.U. leaders declaring America is back and committed to a great relationship with NATO and the European Union. This afternoon, the president leaves for Geneva to meet with Vladimir Putin. We've been told he's preparing nonstop for the summit and says he's ready to let the Russian leader know exactly what America expects.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BIDEN: And the areas where we don't agree, making clear where the red lines are. I have met with him. He's bright, he's tough and I have found that he is a, as they say, when used to play ball, a worthy adversary.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: That was the quote there overnight. The Kremlin said it is ready to hand over certain U.S. citizens who are in prison in Russia while the retired federal judge who sentenced notorious Russian arms trafficker to prison is calling for a prisoner swap.

Let's get more now on this development from CNN's Matthew Chance. He is joining us live from Geneva, where we will be seeing this meeting happen between Putin and Biden. Tell us the latest from where you are.

MATTHEW CHANCE, SENIOR CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. That meeting, Brianna, is going to be happening. 24 hours from now. That's according to the schedule. So, we'll obviously be bringing that to you.

The fraught issues, the list of fraught issues, obviously, as long as you're armed when it comes to the relationship between these two countries, whether it's situation with hacking, the situation Ukraine, the crackdown of dissidents at home, all these things are going to be discussed. It's going to be a pretty tense meeting, is my prediction.

One of the issues though is that issue of prisoner exchange is the potential for both countries. The handover citizens that are in their jails or two American citizens, at least, to that contentious, at least, in Russian jail for Whelan and Trevor Reed. We've heard from their family, of course, making personal appeals to Presidents Biden and Putin to try and find a way to get released. But, of course, if that's going to happen, it's going to have to be a, well, to coin a phrase, quid pro quo. You know, there's going to have to be something coming back from the American side.

And what the Russians want are some pretty high level criminals. They want, for instance, Konstantin Yaroshenko, who was convicted conspiracy to smuggle cocaine, large amounts of it, and Viktor Bout, who is, or was, one of the world's most notorious alms traffickers.

But there's been an intervention on his part as well. The judge that originally gave him the sentence back in 2012, the name is Shira Scheindlin, she's retired now, but she's made this intervention to CNN saying, look, you know, his sentence basically is long enough. He's served enough already. I think he's been in prison for 13 years. If we can, you know, exchange him for a prisoner who has just served -- an American person who has just served three years of his sentence, he's referring to Paul Whelan, then that's something that should be sort of considered.

And so, you know, one of the holdups has been when it comes to prison swap that the American say that the balance isn't right. The people the Russians want back a much higher level criminals than the people the Americans want returned to the United States. You know, but it's ultimately something for the two presidents to discuss them to decide on. Brianna?

KEILAR: And we will see what they come up with. Matthew, thank you so much, live for us from Geneva, Switzerland.

And joining me now is former CIA Senior Intelligence Officer Marc Polymeropoulos. He was in charge of the CIA's Clandestine Operations in Europe and Eurasia from 2017 to 2019. He is the author of the new book, Clarity in Crisis, Leadership lessons from the CIA.

Marc, it is great to have you here this morning at such a pivotal time here and I'm wondering what your reaction is to this judge calling for a U. S.-Russian prisoner swap.

MARC POLYMEROPOULOS, FORMER CIA SENIOR INTELLIGENCE OFFICER: So, first, Brianna, great to be here. And I think that, you know, in terms of what the judge actually said, it's a little unprecedented. You know, this is a retired judge who seems to be having some qualms about the mandatory sentence handed down to Viktor Bout.

[07:10:00]

So I think, you know, I would put that aside. It's a little murky on why this judge would come out and say these things, you know, but, ultimately, Vladimir Putin is taking a page out of the autocratic playbook because there are Americans in jail and trumped up charges. And in return, he, of course, wants some Russian criminals, particularly Viktor Bout, you know, a notorious arms deal, he wants him back.

So this is a distraction, I believe, but it's something that certainly is on the agenda now. Why this judge -- this former judge decided to come out certainly remains bit murky.

KEILAR: Do you think, ultimately, these Americans will be released?

POLYMEROPOULOS: Well, you know, at some point, you know, they have to be because they're there on trumped up charges, they're being held in poor conditions, you know, there's a huge concern about, you know, COVID outbreaks in Russian jails.

Look, we've had spy espionage swaps in the past. You know, it's coming up on a ten-year anniversary of a really big one. But, ultimately, you know, a swap of this nature in which the Russians really captured two Americans who are innocent and they want back some, you know, some notorious criminals, you know, that would set a bad precedent.

The one thing I'll say this on this, so this is a test of leadership. I mean, you know, being president is not easy. President Biden does have immense pressure from the U. S. families. And so, you know, this probably does cause him sleepless nights. But in the end, it's likely to be a pretty poor precedent to set if we go through with this.

KEILAR: We have heard from Trevor Reed's mother yesterday who said she doesn't care how he comes back. She just wants her son back, which perhaps is what you would expect from a mom.

As we're watching, the world is watching this meeting that is going to be happening here in a day with Vladimir Putin and President Biden. What are the pitfalls as you see them potentially for President Biden? Because, you know, this is a high-risk meeting.

POLYMEROPOULOS: Sure. So, you know, first and foremost, I don't think we should really expect any deliverables coming back from the Russians because Vladimir Putin does not want to give any. Ultimately, I think this summit is going through and, you know, in terms of from the U.S. side based on optics.

You know, I think we all -- whether you're Republican or Democrat or myself who's in the CIA at the time, everyone has PTSD from the 2018 Helsinki summit. That was a diplomatic disaster. That was where President Trump, you know, sided with Vladimir Putin in terms of the call the U.S. intelligence agencies made on Russia interference.

So I think this has a lot to do with optics. President Biden wants to certainly put forward, you know, both domestically to the United States, but to the world that the U.S. is back and we will take a stronger tone on Russia. So, ultimately, I don't expect much to come of it, but just to go forward and take that tough tone is -- it's probably worth it. KEILAR: Yes. I mean, when you think of what happened in Helsinki, the bar here is low. It's very hard to see, even before this meeting happens, how Biden does not surpass that. But at the same time, there's this language that Putin speaks, right, that is solely about strength and about how that strength is projected. And to that end, Biden has been preparing intensely for Putin's tactics. He is, after all, a former KGB officer. These are two men with very different backgrounds. How do you think he needs to approach that?

POLYMEROPOULOS: So, look, I think it's -- words really don't matter as much as actions. And so, you know, what I would like to see from the United States, and we've been seeing this and certainly under President Biden leadership, is to put forward, you know, the defend forward strategy.

So that entails several things. You know, first and foremost, we have to counter the Russian in terms of cyber warfare. And so, you know, with the ransomware attacks on the Colonial Pipeline and the meatpacking plant, you know, this is something that cannot stand. So we have to take an offensive of cyber strategy, and we've been doing that.

Second, we have to work with our allies.

KEILAR: Marc, I'm going to have you paused for a moment. Let's listen into the president in Belgium.

BIDEN: And we're at the G7 at the end of day. I apologize, I kept my colleagues in the closed meeting. But I want to go out (ph). This is -- I haven't back to Brussels and the E.U. since 2017. And since back then, also the first summit back in 2014. But I brought the A-team with me today. And I have said both publicly and privately that America is back, and which is why we're here in full force.

I'm happy to have with me today the members of my cabinet, Secretary of State Antony Cabinet. He suffers from a problem of having worked with me for years and also Trade Representative Ambassador Katherine Tai, who has made some real progress already. And Secretary of Commerce Gina Raimondo, who was a first grade governor and one of the brightest people that we've worked and agreed to come on as our secretary of commerce.

[07:15:07]

And one of the things that you and I were talking about, it comes as no shock because of (INAUDIBLE). Europe is our natural partner. And the reason we are committed to the same democratic constitutions and they are increasingly under attack.

And I have said before and I apologize for repeating -- oh, I -- that's Jake Sullivan, my national security adviser. I'm leaving out a lot of people here. I apologize. I'm going to get in trouble. But we'll get back to that.

But there's a lot that is happening. I used to always -- my friends would kid me in the United States Senate, (INAUDIBLE) I always quote in Irish poets. The reason I quote Irish poets is I'm Irish. That's not the reason. They're the best poets in (INAUDIBLE).

All kidding aside, there's a stanza from a poem of an Irish poet who was just lost (ph) that said, walls change, change utterly. Terrible beauty has been born. I think all has changed in the last 10, 12 years and it's not because of any one person. I think we're in the midst of a terrible beauty having been born, a great shift in technology, a great shift in development of the world and it's causing great anxiety into our countries. And I'm certain (INAUDIBLE) of our economy (INAUDIBLE). They're getting replaced by new technology. They no longer have a job (INAUDIBLE) to do this.

And that comes along at the same time that also generates uncertainties generated politically like that by individuals. It also generates some folks who are less than, how can I say it, somewhat more like charlatans, trying to take advantage of those concerns. We have seen it in Europe. We have seen it in the United States. We've seen it around the world, this growing populism.

So it seems to me that the best answer to deal with these changes is that to have a circumstance where our economies grow and they grow together and they grow still based on the value set that united us in the first place. And I think we do share just the same basic values of human dignity.

And my colleagues, I'll be very colloquial, my dad at a transition where in the city we lived in, coal was dying, no longer relevant, he was not a miner, my great grandfather was a coal miner. He was a mining engineer. But in Northeastern Pennsylvania, when coal died, my dad was a salesperson, and the economy collapsed. And we moved to another part and got a new job to now in Delaware, just across the Pennsylvania border.

And my family, my siblings and I would hear him often use following this expression. He said, Joe, a job is a lot more about a paycheck. It's about your dignity. It's about respect. It's not your place to (INAUDIBLE). It's about being able to look your child in the eye and say, it's going to be okay and mean it. I think we sometimes forget that. It's about dignity and them being able to hold their head high.

And so I think we have an enormous opportunity if we think in terms of these changes, particularly in terms of global warming, if we think it in terms of jobs, the kind of jobs that we're going to have to create to preserve the environment are jobs that can pay well that are going to use technologies that working class, blue collar workers in states will be able to make more money to be able do well. But we have to all of us accommodate those changes and provide for them.

And so I think we have a lot to deal with from COVID-19 to whether or not we're in a position that we can generate the kind of strengthening and transatlantic trade and technological cooperation.

[07:20:12]

There are a different set of priorities with the same objectives, how do like-minded countries sharing the same values, work together to improve living standard for not our people but for the rest of the world. We have the capacity to do that. And it will take awful lot of hard work in determination.

And I'll conclude by saying, one of the reasons why I am optimistic is because of our younger generation in Europe as well as the United States. The young generation, this one, is the best educated in American history. It is also the least prejudice and most open and the most committed. And I think that we have reason to believe that if we provide the policies that are consistent to provide for the kind of growth and opportunity for them, and education plays a gigantic part of that, I think the future is very, very bright. I think we have an opportunity to do some really very good things.

And with that, I should, as my mother would say, I should hush it up and let this discussion move forward.

BERMAN: President Biden at a meeting of the European Union there. Now, one thing to note is he's a guest here. Up until this point, we've seen him with the G7 and NATO where the United States very much a member and the leading member, here, he's a guest of the European Union, talked about the great shift the entire world faces in how America wants Europe as an ally in that shift.

Joining us once again, Hagar Chemali. Hagar, thanks so much for being with us. It was interesting to hear President Biden talk about this great shift. In some ways, it's been the theme of this trip. It's a shift in terms of world politics from democracy to populism and the dangers that are faced there but also a shift in terms of the direction that the U.S. is now facing as it looks to its adversaries.

CHEMALI: Right. If you look at this trip from the 60,000-foot level after the last four years in particular, it's, you have President Biden reinforcing these key themes of strong alliances and key democratic-shared values, and what that means when you put that all together, right? When you unite that, the type of national security challenges or global crises like a pandemic or economic recovery that you can address will be all the more effective.

And I think that that's important in particular because, over the last four years, but certainly before as well, you have had a rise in populism around the world. You've had authoritarian leaders acting with impunity, certainly with human rights abuses. You've seen all over in Turkey, in Saudi Arabia, in China, in Russia and so on.

And, to me, when I was looking at this, as someone who has worked on these issues for a long time, I saw this as historic and a milestone and I hope that this sets things in a different trajectory, in a more positive way, to reinforce democratic values, to put authoritarians on the heels so that they understand that people are watching, that they're not going to be able to do whatever they want without accountability and justice of some kind.

BERMAN: He was there with the secretary of state, secretary commerce and U.S. trade rep. So the message there is it's not just about diplomacy but also about economics as well, an important meeting, to say the least. Hagar Chemali, thanks so much for being with us this morning.

CHEMALI: Thanks.

BERMAN: Brianna?

KEILAR: How far did the former president and his allies go to push the big election lie? CNN has obtained new emails showing the pressure campaign on the Department of Justice.

BERMAN: Deja vu for Democrats, what Mitch McConnell said about a potential Supreme Court vacancy if Republicans retake control of the Senate.

KEILAR: And a tragedy at a supermarket after witnesses say a customer pulled a gun when he was told to wear a mask.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:25:00]

KEILAR: Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell setting the stage for another potential Supreme Court nominee showdown if he regains control of the Senate after the 2022 midterms, asked if he would apply the same rule in 2024 that he implemented in 2016 when he blocked Merrick Garland's nomination by former President Barack Obama to fill Justice Antonin Scalia's vacancy, McConnell said this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY): So I think it's highly unlikely. In fact, no, I don't think either party if it control, if it were different from the president, would confirm as Supreme Court nominee in the middle of the election. What was different in 2020 was we were of the same party as the president.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: Now, McConnell's threat to block a future Biden Supreme Court pick comes as we wait several of the most significant opinions from the high court this term. So for more on this, let's bring in our Supreme Court Reporter Ariane de Vogue.

Okay, Ariane, walk us through this. What are the big decisions that we're still waiting on here?

ARIANE DE VOGUE, CNN SUPREME COURT REPORTER: Right. We have only about two weeks left in this term, and the Supreme Court hasn't ruled on some of the most high profile cases. So that's unusual. Here we are on some of them.

First of all, the Affordable Care Act, Texas and republican-led states, but they want to gut the entire law. Remember Chief Justice John Roberts? He saved it under the taxing power a few years ago. And then Congress moved to bring that tax penalty down to zero. So critics raised to court. They said, you've gotten rid of the legal underpinning of the law. So the whole thing is unconstitutional. At oral arguments, it didn't seem like the justices were going to go that far, but we'll have to watch it. There's also an interesting religious liberty case. Philadelphia froze the contract of a Catholic foster care agency because the agency refused to work with same sex couples as potential parents.

[07:30:08]

So the agency turned around.