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Pfizer says it's Time for a COVID Booster, FDA and CDC Says it's Not; Taliban Says it Controls 85 Percent of Afghanistan's Territory; Olympics Mess, No Fans, State of Emergency, Controversies. Aired 7-7:30a ET

Aired July 09, 2021 - 07:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[07:00:00]

JOHN BERMAN, CNN NEW DAY: So this morning, debate whether the issue of whether there waning immunity to coronavirus from the vaccines. Pfizer says it has seen immunity from its two-dose shot weakened over time and it's applying for authorization for a COVID booster shot. To that, both the CDC and FDA say, not necessary, not now. They say Americans who are fully vaccinated do not need boosters right now.

Their joint statement adds, I should say, it is not up to companies alone to decide when boosters might be needed.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN NEW DAY: So this follows news from the Israeli government this week that the effectiveness of the Pfizer vaccine dropped from about 95 percent to 64 percent. We're not talking about serious illness here. We're talking about the actual catching of coronavirus. And that this drop has happened as the delta variant has spread.

Right now, COVID cases are rising in the U.S. in half of the states here. So, let's talk with an expert.

BERMAN: Joining me is Dr. Carlos del Rio, Executive Associate Dean of Emory University School of Medicine at Grady Health System. He also served as an investigator in phase three of Moderna's coronavirus vaccine study.

Dr. del Rio, I'm just going to put it out to you flatly here, do Americans need a booster shot?

All right, I think your answer is a mystery to the American people because I do not think we can hear you. Dr. del Rio, are you there? Can we check with you again?

All right, listen, we're going to get Dr. del Rio's audio up because these are really important questions to answer, so much more on coronavirus and the vaccines in just a moment.

KEILAR: And breaking overnight --

BERMAN: We do have him.

KEILAR: Oh, great. All right, let's go back.

BERMAN: Thank you. Dr. del Rio, you're back. Listen, do you think Americans need coronavirus booster shots?

DR. CARLOS DEL RIO, EXECUTIVE ASSOCIATE DEAN, EMORY UNIVERSITY SCHOOL OF MEDICINE: John, sorry for that. And, no, the answer to that is no. At this point in time, Americans don't need booster shots. What Americans need is to be immunized. If you haven't been vaccinated, the delta variant is a serious problem. If you have received your full immunization two doses of Pfizer and Moderna, you do not need a booster shot at this point in time.

BERMAN: So you think more Americans need their first shot, you think, than Americans who need a third shot, a booster shot? Why is it do you think the CDC, the FDA, the NIH came out so quickly with this statement, a statement that I've never seen anything like before, frankly, where they're saying, not so fast, the boosters aren't necessary according to our data right now?

DEL RIO: Well, I don't know but, obviously, was in response to the requests from Pfizer. The request from Pfizer is very confusing. It says, we're seeing waning immunity. John, we're not seeing yet that waning immunity. I think the data has come out several studies here from not only the U.S., but one from France published this week, another one from my colleagues here at Emory, showing that, yes, the delta variant is more resistant to antibodies but if you have received two doses of vaccine, even though the level of antibody needed to counteract that strain is still higher than to the other strain, it's still sufficient to do so. So, the bottom line is delta is not an excuse to get an additional shot.

We also know, John, that it's still highly effective preventing severe disease and death. So part of what we may be seeing in Israel, Israel does a lot of testing and a lot of those people are vaccinated and asymptomatically infected.

BERMAN: So, Pfizer applying for emergency use authorization though for a booster shot, is that just getting ahead of the game? What do you think Pfizer is doing here?

DEL RIO: Well, I think they're doing what they do, which is try to sell their products. I think more importantly right now, and I would encourage the FDA to do this, is to actually review the biological applications that Pfizer and Moderna has submitted and actually give full FDA approval to those vaccines. We need the coronavirus vaccines to receive full FDA approval and no longer be under emergency use authorization. That is a lot more important than getting boosters at this point in time.

BERMAN: All right. Dr. del Rio, we appreciate you being with us. Thank you for bearing through the technical issues.

DEL RIO: Not a problem, John.

KEILAR: Breaking overnight, the Taliban is now claiming to control 85 percent of territory in Afghanistan as insurgent fighters advance across the country. President Biden yesterday defended his decision to pull U.S. troops out of the country, saying that it is now up to the Afghans to defend their own country.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, U.S. PRESIDENT: Nearly 20 years of experience has shown us that the current security situation only confirms that just one more year of fighting in Afghanistan is not a solution but a recipe for being there indefinitely.

I will not send another generation of Americans to war in Afghanistan with no reasonable expectation of achieving a different outcome.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[07:05:00]

KEILAR: Let's talk now with Pentagon Spokesman John Kirby. Sir, thank you so much for being with us. And can you comment on that, the Taliban saying that it now controls 85 percent of Afghanistan's territory? Is that true?

JOHN KIRBY, PENTAGON SPOKESMAN: Well, what we have seen is deteriorating security situation on the ground, no question about that, that the Taliban continues to take district centers. I'm not in a position to quantify or to validate their --what their assessment is, but we are seeing them continue to advance on district centers around the country.

And it is concerning, and it's all the more reason, as the president said yesterday for us, to want to see a political solution and end to this fighting and for the Taliban to come to the negotiating table and try to come together on a settlement that's good for the Afghan people and Afghan security going forward.

It's also time and the president talked about this yesterday, Brianna, for Afghan forces to show the capacity and the capability that we know that they have. They are brave. They are fighters. They have taken a lot of casualties over the last year. And we know that they're willing to defend their country and we're going to help them do that, but, really, it's their job to do that now.

KEILAR: I think it's key, though, that you're not shooting this down. You're not saying that the 85 percent here is wrong. We should also point out that, as we heard from the president yesterday, he was talking about the official end date here being the very end of August, so we're not there yet. And it sounds like you're not necessarily saying that the Taliban is incorrect, just about controlling already the vast majority of Afghanistan.

KIRBY: Well, I just don't want to get in the business of validating their assessments and their public statements about what they think they have. I would tell you, and you know this, Brianna, that claiming territory or claiming ground doesn't mean you can sustain that or keep it over time. And so I think it's really time for the Afghan forces to get into the field, and they are in the field and to defend their country, their people.

And they've got capacity. They have got capability. They have an air force, an air force, by the way, that we're continuing to fund and support. We're giving them another 30-plus black hawk helicopters here, two coming this month, as well as other strike aircraft. They've got modern weaponry. They've had training and the ability to be in the field with American forces much over the last 20 years. They've got the capacity. They've got the capability. Now it's time to have that will.

KEILAR: Well, I want to ask you about that because, yesterday, the president repeatedly emphasized that there are more Afghan forces than the Taliban. I mean, he's saying this is really up to Afghan forces to do this. And he said the likelihood of the Taliban overrunning everything, that's what he said, and owning the whole country, that's a quote from him, is unlikely.

But at this point, I mean, what you've seen is -- I mean, I hear what you're saying, but we're talking about Afghan forces who've actually had U.S. assistance in person up until this point, now they're not going to have this. And they have already here recently suffered these key losses, including major trade routes. So how can he be so sure that they aren't going to overrun everything and own everything?

KIRBY: Well, obviously, we're watching this closely, Brianna. And nobody can say with certainty, but I think the president is right, that it's not a foregone conclusion and nobody should think it's a foregone conclusion that the Taliban are just going to swiftly take over the whole country. It doesn't have to be that way.

And it's not like the Afghans are going to be doing this without our help or without the help of some of our NATO allies as well. That help will transition. It won't be on the ground, as you said. It won't be face to face necessarily, but we're going to continue to support them financially, help them with salaries for their soldiers, we're also going to help maintain their aircraft outside the country. So we're still going to be a presence there to help them do this. But it really is going to be up to them to do this.

And it is not inevitable that the Taliban is just going to swiftly take over the country in Kabul. The Afghan forces, they're fighters, and they're brave, and they have taken a lot of casualties, as I've said, over the last year. They had been in the lead over the last year of the great majority of missions inside their country, even before the president ordered the drawdown. They were in the lead in the vast majority of those missions. They know how to do this. And they know what the responsibilities are before them.

And I think it's important for them to know that we're going to be with them in a different way, for sure, but they're going to be with them going forward.

KEILAR: Afghan translators and also Afghans who provided other services to U.S. forces and U.S. civilians at considerable risk, really the risk of death to themselves and to their families. Can you guarantee that every one of them who wants help, who needs to escape because they are at risk, will have that assistance?

KIRBY: What I can tell you, Brianna, is that we know here in the Pentagon that we have an obligation, a sacred obligation to help those who have helped us. I can say with certainty that we're -- at the Department of Defense, we're going to do everything we can inside the U.S. government efforts to get those who are qualified through this SIV program out of the country if that's what you want to do.

You heard the president talk yesterday that of the couple thousand or so who reached that level where we can start to process them for -- to get out of the country, less than half of them have shown a willingness to do that.

[07:10:11]

KEILAR: Why is that, sir? Why is it that less than half? I know in some cases you have interpreters and other Afghans who helped the U.S., they want to leave with their families, right? Because they leave, their family is behind, their family gets killed by the Taliban. I hear him saying less than half of them who said they want to leave, is that -- are you trying to say that they want to stay in Afghanistan, that they're not worried about staying and risking their lives by staying?

KIRBY: Well, Brianna, I can't speak for these families and what the personal decisions that they want to make. What I can tell you is that we're going to be prepared here at DOD to help facilitate their transportation out of the country, if that's what they want to do, and their families as well, if that's what they want to do.

And what we're doing right now is looking for locations overseas, both U.S. installations and perhaps installations in other countries that we might be able to have access to, to allow for them to have some sort of temporary residence while they complete the process.

And at the end of that process, Brianna, some may want to come to the United States, some may not want to come to United States, but we're just not there yet. What we're focused on meeting this obligation, the obligation that you eloquently talked to in your first question to me, we know we have to help them because they helped us. We're absolutely committed to doing that.

KEILAR: The president was asked about this yesterday, why can't -- I think we're talking about the better part of almost 100,000 people here, maybe more who are -- helped the U.S. or their family members. He was asked why can't they come to the U.S. as they await the visa process. And he said that's up to Congress. Are you -- is the administration actively lobbying Congress to address that? And do you have any hopes of doing that in this hyper-partisan environment especially when it comes to the issue of immigration?

KIRBY: We're working with Congress to expand and accelerate the SIV program. You heard Secretary of State Blinken talk to this. We do need congressional relief to be able to expand and accelerate this program. Right now, given the numbers that we're working with, we think the best solution is some overseas locations where we can have either the DOD owns or that we have access to or we will be able to support to get them temporary location while they work through this process. We think that's the most efficient way to handle this and the safest way for them.

And then, again, after they get through the process, if they want to come to the United States, the president, you heard him, he couldn't have been more clear yesterday, they're going to be welcome here in the United States.

KEILAR: There is, we should note, a small force of American forces that will remain behind in order to protect U.S. diplomatic efforts, the U.S. embassy in Kabul there. But the president yesterday said, when asked if this is going to be something akin to the fall of Saigon, he said that there will be no circumstance where you see people being lifted off the roof of the embassy in Kabul. How can he be so sure of that?

KIRBY: We don't think the situation is going to devolve into that right now. And I would tell you that the forces that we're going to have in the country will be robust enough to help defend the work of our diplomats. That's going to be the focus.

Another part of that is, of course, helping make sure that the airport is secure there in Kabul because you need airport logistics in order to be able to support a diplomatic presence. We're working our way through all the details of what that's going to look like, but we think that that diplomatic presence can sustain itself and will be there, we'll help defend it and that's what our focus is on.

KEILAR: Certainly, American forces, overall, served honorably in Afghanistan and did what they were asked, but, you know, having spoken with a lot of veterans and family members and even some active duty folks, I have heard so many ask what was this all for? Even as they are proud that they fulfilled their commitment to their country, 2448 killed, more than 20,000 injured, and the president said that he was, yesterday, honoring the significance, as he put it, of what the U.S. military and civilians accomplished in Afghanistan. What is the significance of what they accomplished?

KIRBY: Well, one major significant thing, Brianna, is that this country has not been attacked since 9/11 on our own homeland and, certainly, we have not been attacked from terrorist threats emanating out of Afghanistan. That threat has been diminished.

Now, I'm not going to say that there aren't still terrorist groups in Afghanistan who might have designs against American interests but their threat is greatly diminished. And our men and women in uniform as well as Afghan soldiers as well as NATO allies can take great pride in the fact that Afghanistan has not become a safe haven for terrorists that can threaten our homeland since 9/11.

That is a huge accomplishment. Not to mention eventually getting Osama Bin Laden and greatly diminishing, if not, completely defeating the international threat that Al Qaeda once posed. That's a great accomplishment, as well as helping the Afghan people and the Afghan government reach a level of representative government so that other progress could be made on the ground particularly with respect to education and advancement of women and girls.

[07:15:07]

There's been a lot of changes in Afghanistan.

If you fly over Kabul today, and I was there not long ago, the sites, the bustle of Kabul is something that was just not present even 10, 15 years ago. So there's been a lot of progress. But the main mission, the purpose for us going in has been accomplished. Afghanistan is not a safe haven for terrorist attacks on our homeland again, and we're going to make sure that doesn't happen again through over the horizon counterterrorism capabilities that we're going to maintain in the region.

KEILAR: I do want to turn, while I have you, to the Russian hacking attacks on U.S. interests. And these have gone on before and since that summit between President Biden and Vladimir Putin, where the president warned Vladimir Putin. Is Putin ignoring Biden's warning?

KIRBY: Well, we certainly hope not. I think the president was very clear about how seriously we take these threats and that these -- certainly, these ransomware attacks are emanating from Russia and that there is a sense of responsibility that Moscow should feel over that, and that if they don't, that there will be consequences.

I think the president has been crystal clear about how seriously we're taking this and about the potential repercussions for Moscow if they don't do something about it.

KEILAR: Is the nation on a war footing right now when it comes to cyberattacks?

KIRBY: I don't think we want to be on a war footing for cyberattacks, Brianna. That's certainly not where we want to be. But we are in a state of vigilance, obviously, and we have to continue to work on the resilience of our networks and our capabilities and to be able to have options available to the president should he want to use them, some options in the cyber world, options outside the cyber world. That's what we do here at DOD, is to try to help him have those kinds of options but nobody wants to see this become a war footing or an era of conflict. There's no reason for that if nations like Russia, if leaders like Vladimir Putin are willing to act responsibly in the cyberspace.

KEILAR: John Kirby, thank you so much, joining us live this morning from the Pentagon.

KIRBY: My pleasure. Thank you.

BERMAN: I want to bring in Chief White House Correspondent Kaitlan Collins. Kaitlan, I find John Kirby's language, also the language of the president, so specific and so revealing in many ways. You know, Kirby there says, I don't think this will be -- we don't think this will be like the fall of Saigon, we hope that the Afghan troops can contain the Taliban. You know, we don't know that the Taliban now controls 85 percent of the country. So, uncertainty there, but what Kirby and the president both say is that what we know, they say, is we know that by staying, we're not going to make things better. This seems like a clear choice in messaging right now.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes. You did not see the president waiver at all yesterday when he was defending this decision very steadfast and saying he was clear-eyed when he made this decision, that he knew the violence that we are now seeing on the ground could happen, seeing the Taliban gain more ground by the day, saying that that is something they were well aware of when he made this decision.

But the way that President Biden framed it yesterday was that he felt like he had few good options given that his predecessor had struck that agreement with the Taliban to remove troops by May. And the way he was looking at it was not that just if he broke that agreement, U.S. troops would stay there, he was worried about them coming under attack by the Taliban and then having to send more troops to the area. And so that is what he said he felt like he was looking at.

But I think one really notable part of what John Kirby was saying there and the president was saying yesterday is, really, it's out of the United States' hands. Nations have gone there, no one has been able to really change the course of Afghanistan, they did not feel like the U.S. military is going to be able to do that.

So, essentially, what they're arguing while sending this dueling message that they will still be there to prop up and support some of the Afghanistan military is that this is not our responsibility and it's not going to change and so why are we continuing to spend U.S. lives, U.S. forces and U.S. money there if nothing is changing ultimately.

BERMAN: I haven't spoken to anyone who thinks that the picture that he painted of the abilities of Afghan forces isn't a bit rosy, I think, as you talked about it last hour, John Berman. It certainly is. So he is sort of painting an optimistic picture of their abilities. We have seen their abilities. There are certainly many challenges there.

But I do want to turn, Kaitlan, to cyberattacks, because I know you have spoken to the president multiple times, you've asked him about his response to cyberattacks that have been carried out from within Russia, if not by Russia. What can you tell us what they want?

COLLINS: Well, this is what is so critical, because it's only been a matter of weeks since his summit with Vladimir Putin where he essentially laid down the gauntlet saying that you need to stop or crack down on these cyber crimes, not necessarily the ones being conducted by the Russian government, the intelligence arm of the Russian government, but the other ones that are being done, we believe, by these cyber gangs that are harbored in Russia.

[07:20:04]

And he basically laid out a list, saying that this is crossing a line for me if you continue to go after these entities and go after these areas. Arguably, this global ransomware attack that we saw happen over the weekend would technically cross one of those lines.

So, I mean, the big question is going to be how is the U.S. going to respond and we have not gotten a good idea of that from the White House yet because we do know that he met with his team at the White House this week. He said after he would deliver a message to the Russian president, the White House said that it's not necessarily a verbal message but the question is, well, is it an operational one? Are we going to see something tangible actually happen as a U.S. response to this?

And the idea of what so interesting about the interaction that I had with the president was, when we were talking about whether or not Putin would change his behavior, he believed he would only if there was pressure from the world democracies. And so the question is, is there going to be pressure from the United States in response to these brazen attacks that have continued to go forward.

BERMAN: Yes. And will we know? Will they be visible to the rest of the world or at least us publicly? It's very interesting as we watch that.

So, Kaitlan, the Wall Street Journal's Michael Bender, our friend, a great reporter, has a new book coming out where he details an encounter between President Trump and Vice President Mike Pence, former, I should not, in 2018. Pence's political committee had hired Corry Lewandowski.

And Bender writes, quote, he crumpled the article, Trump did, and threw it at his vice president. So disloyal, Mr. Trump said, Mr. Pence lost it. Pence picked up the article and threw it back at Trump. He leaned toward the president and pointed a finger a few inches from his chest. We walk you through every detail of this, Pence snarled. We did this for you as a favor and this is how you respond? You need to get your facts straight.

So, I think this episode, as depicted by Michael, comes as a surprise to all of us who didn't think Mike Pence ever stood up to Donald Trump in any form or fashion here and seems a bit of contrast to how he at least publicly spoke out against the president prior to January 6th.

COLLINS: Yes. I think two things are revealing from this part of Bender's new book, and that is that, yes, this relationship between the president and the former president and the former vice president was never as rosy as it seemed. Often in public, you would see Mike Pence talking about Trump's broad shoulders and his leadership and all of that, behind the scenes, of course, he was very delicately navigating a relationship with a mercurial president who was ready to turn on him really at any moment, as we saw happened with January 6. And there were moments like this at times where if it wasn't Pence, it was his staff. And this was a moment where I remember when they did hire Corey Lewandowski, there were some Pence allies who kind of rolled their eyes but he obviously did it as a favor to the former president. And so, also it's also revealing of how Trump's decision and his view of things is often based on the coverage. Even if he is involved in a decision and he ultimately plays a role and it's a decision made because people think it will please him, but he doesn't like how it's later portrayed in the media, then he blames other people, that it was just really a telling aspect of so many parts of the Trump era but including this one.

BERMAN: Kaitlan Collins, great to have you on this morning. Thanks so much.

All right, coming up, Kevin McCarthy's struggle to keep his most outspoken members in line. We have new reporting from Capitol Hill.

KEILAR: And Japan's government moving to ban spectators from the upcoming Olympic Games as COVID cases rise. What does this mean for the athletes? We'll have Diving Legend Greg Louganis joining us next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:25:00]

KEILAR: Japan is reversing course on its Olympic plans. It is banning all spectators from attending the summer games. Tokyo is entering its fourth state of emergency as cases there are rising rapidly. Only 15 percent of the country right now is fully vaccinated.

Let's discuss these upcoming games here with five-time U.S. Olympic diving gold medalist Greg Louganis with us this morning. Greg, it is wonderful to have you on the program this morning. And I know you're watching the games with a lot of excitement. You're a mentor to current Olympic athletes and, of course, you are an athlete yourself. How much does this state of emergency that is hanging over this and the lack of spectators worry you?

GREG LOUGANIS, OLYMPIC DIVING GOLD MEDALIST: It doesn't really worry me so much because, ultimately, as an athlete and as an elite athlete, I mean, you're focused on your performance and so lot of this other stuff can be noise. So, it may even calm down some of the noise for some of the athletes, but, you know, them focusing on the job that they're doing.

The one thing that I will say is that because there's -- when you get going to an Olympic venue, I mean, it's like there's an energy. It's palatable. And you can feel that energy. And that's what really kind of pushes many performances into world class or world record-breaking performances, you know, that energy of that.

So I have a feeling we'll see less world records broken but also there's been the challenge of training during COVID. You know, a lot of athletes -- some of the athletes have had opportunity to train. Others didn't have the availability for training. So, you know, it's been really uneven.

[07:30:01]

So it will be an interesting Olympics.

KEILAR: Yes. It's so interesting to hear you say that because I think there's actually been studies done that show when people have.