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Pentagon Feared Military Use after Election; Masih Alinejad is Interviewed about her Kidnapping Plot; Critical Hearing for Britney Spears; Anti-Vaxxers Cling to Old Arguments. Aired 8:30-9a ET

Aired July 14, 2021 - 08:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:30:00]

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: Fight to stay in office. Pompeo suggested regular call with Meadows and Milley so that they could keep the temperature down in hot spots overseas. The crazies have taken over, Pompeo warned one colleague about the White House, end quote.

But as Pompeo reportedly sounded the alarm on, quote, crazies running the show and undermining democracy, he was openly denying that Joe Biden won, making this declaration at a news briefing a week after Election Day sound even more insane in retrospect.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MIKE POMPEO, FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE (November 10, 2020): There will be a smooth transition to a second Trump administration.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: Now, weeks followed of Trump refusing to concede the election, launching empty legal challenges of certified results in courts across the country, threatening to trample an established pillar of the American political system, the peaceful transition of power between administrations. In January, Pompeo finally acknowledged the reality that it turns out he'd secretly been living in for two months.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MIKE POMPEO, FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE (January 4, 2021): I think we are leaving -- after four years, I think we're leaving the world safer than when we came in. I hope that the policies that we put in place will have the capacity to continue.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: And joining us now is CNN anchor and chief national security correspondent Jim Sciutto.

There's a slew of new books out, Jim, and we're learning so much as they kind of pull the curtain back on especially these final months of the Trump administration. And one of the books actually reveals that there was so much fear among Pentagon officials about what Trump might do with the military and what he might enlist them to do following the election.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Listen, you get a view as to what would have happened, one, had Trump been re-elected. I mean you had Esper and others saying that he would have pulled the U.S. straight out of NATO. He would have pulled the U.S. out of its decades-old alliance with South Korea. Things that he had sort of tip-toed around while president, but that he was saying, listen, after the election, all bets are off. I mean that's a remarkable reality to imagine. And we weren't that far off from it.

But then, before that, right, is just that period of time post- election before the inauguration, the fears of Esper and others in the Pentagon about how Trump might attempt to use the military.

Esper, for instance, you know, describes his fears of a more compliant defense secretary if he himself were fired because, for instance, you know, Esper had already pushed back against Trump using the military under of the Insurrection Act, right, to respond to domestic protest. And you have these conversations talking about fourth and fifth rate people in charge at the Pentagon. You have the account of Mark Milley receiving a call from a former military -- senior military official saying, beware. And I think the phrase was, you are an island unto yourself here as the head of the military, in effect.

I mean these guys are not wilting flowers, right? They're not alarmist. But their level of concern about what this president was capable of post-election is truly alarming.

KEILAR: You get the sense of how much they were holding the door, I think, in all of this, you know?

SCIUTTO: Yes.

KEILAR: I want to see what you think --

SCIUTTO: Just holding the door, right?

KEILAR: Just holding the door.

SCIUTTO: Just (INAUDIBLE).

KEILAR: Afraid that it might not hold, to be honest.

SCIUTTO: Yes. Yes.

KEILAR: I want to get your insight on what we have just heard from former President George W. Bush about the U.S. exit from Afghanistan.

Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: Sadly, I'm afraid Afghan women and girls are going to suffer unspeakable harm.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is a mistake, the withdrawal? BUSH: I -- you know, I think it is, yes. I think -- because I think

the consequence are going to be unbelievably bad. And I'm sad. I spent -- Laura and I spent a lot of time with Afghan women, and -- and they're scared. And I think about all the interpreters and people that helped, not only U.S. troops, but NATO troops, and they're just -- it seems like they're just going to be left behind to be slaughtered by these very brutal people. And it breaks my heart.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: All right, we know that his -- his fears about Afghan women and Afghans who helped Americans are very real. Many people connect with that.

I'm not sure he's the person to be criticizing others' actions on Afghanistan, but he certainly is a significant voice in this as the person who began the war.

SCIUTTO: Yes. And, by the way, he's not alone.

KEILAR: Sure.

SCIUTTO: I've been speaking over the last couple weeks to current military officials in the Pentagon and former, folks who served in senior positions, but also commanded forces in Afghanistan, across the board they are deeply fearful about the future of Afghanistan. In fact, pessimistic about where this is going to go.

So George W. Bush is not on an island on that here.

KEILAR: They wonder why the U.S. didn't keep some sort of toe-hold.

SCIUTTO: Yes. I mean this is the Mark Milley kind of argument, the finger in the dam argument, is that, we're nowhere near 135,000 troops, like the U.S. used to have there. About 5,000. The Pentagon set a floor of sort of 3,000 to 5,000 just to provide some counter terror capability, but also to give the Afghan forces some confidence, right? I mean that's the finger in the dam idea. You take the finger out of the dam, the dam breaks.

The fear is that where you are now the dam will break for the -- for the Taliban.

[08:35:03]

And you can see them marching across the country. I don't have to tell you about women and girls there. I've been to Afghanistan a couple dozen times. And every time I went, I went to girls schools because that was the number one thing Afghan people would talk about as a positive development post-U.S. invasion was the opening of girls schools because, of course, the Taliban brutally shut that down. I met with them there. You know, these are lovely people, right, who finally got a chance.

I, like Bush, fear for them, right, because at a minimum they're not going to get that chance. At the -- at the far end, because we know what the Taliban is capable of, they'll attack these people, you know?

KEILAR: It's a very real fear.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

KEILAR: Jim Sciutto, thank you so much. We'll see you very soon, in about 25 minutes, at the top of the hour.

SCIUTTO: I'll be there.

KEILAR: Four Iranian nationals have been charged in an alleged plot to kidnap an American journalist from New York City. And the woman claiming to be that journalist will join us live on NEW DAY, next.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: The Britney Spears case back in court. Will her aggressive new legal strategy pay off?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:40:10]

BERMAN: Happening overnight, federal prosecutors have charged four Iranian nationals in an alleged plot to kidnap a journalist and human rights activist from New York City. According to an indictment unsealed in New York federal court Tuesday, the four were charged with conspiracy related to kidnapping, sanctions violations, bank and wire fraud and money laundering. U.S. attorney for the Southern District of New York, Audrey Strauss, said in a statement, quote, as alleged, four of the defendants monitored and planned to kidnap a U.S. citizen of Iranian origin who has been critical of the regime's autocracy and to forcibly take their intended victim to Iran, where the victim's fate would have been uncertain at best.

Those four men remain at large. The U.S. attorney's office did not identify the victim and has declined to comment to CNN on the case. But my next guest says she was the target of this alleged kidnapping plot. And she joins me now, Iranian journalist and activist Masih Alinejad.

CNN, by the way, has reached out to the Iranian government for comment. We've not heard back at this point.

Masih, thank you for being with us.

MASIH ALINEJAD, IRANIAN JOURNALIST AND ACTIVIST: Sure. (INAUDIBLE).

BERMAN: I'm glad you're well this morning.

How did you find out about this plot?

ALINEJAD: I didn't know about the details. First of all, I have to say that the details were shocking that I just learned out about them last night. But the FBI came to my house like eight months ago and they were telling me that this house is not safe for you. And I was like, you must be kidding me because I receive daily death threats. What's new? I'm here in America. They cannot do anything. And then when they showed me the photos of my private life with my

husband, my stepchildren, my beautiful garden in Brooklyn, I was like, wow. So the government are that close to me?

And then I took it serious. So they sent me to the safe house and I'm being under FBI protection until now.

BERMAN: How long have you been in a safe house?

ALINEJAD: We actually change different safe houses for three months because the government -- the FBI actually arrested the investigator, the one who was taking photo of me, and they asked me to work with them, like, go in safe house, going live on Instagram without mentioning the location because the FBI was trying to find out whether they're going to follow me and find me -- my new place. And they did.

BERMAN: So just to be clear, the Iranians somehow were casing you, right?

ALINEJAD: Yes. It's unbelievable. I mean I actually cannot believe it that in New York the Islamic Republic was allowed actually to threat and follow me, an American-Iranian citizen, here, in the land of the United States of America. And I was shocked because, you know, we've been heard that so many times that people, like Iranian dissidents, being targeted by the Iranian officials in Europe but never -- and actually the FBI told me this is the first time in the history they actually chased and followed an Iranian citizen in the United States of America.

BERMAN: You said you just learned some of the details yesterday.

ALINEJAD: Oh, yes.

BERMAN: What details did you learn?

ALINEJAD: They were following me to take me -- to grab me to a boat to Venezuela. I was like, wow, so that was the plan? But you know what is the most shocking thing for me here, that they even arrested someone in America. It means that -- that we -- I mean there was no background check? Nothing? Some -- a lady who got arrested lives in California.

BERMAN: She wasn't charged specifically with the kidnapping --

ALINEJAD: So but she was helping the, you know, the intelligence service to kidnap me, and that was scary as well.

BERMAN: So the Iranian, as you were told by the FBI, or somebody, was going to put you in a boat.

ALINEJAD: Yes.

BERMAN: Where? Here?

ALINEJAD: Here. And they said that here, and take me to Venezuela and then -- this is actually that -- I'm not the first person that the Islamic (ph) Republic trying to kidnap. Ruha Lazim (ph) was one of Iranian journalists and dissidents.

BERMAN: France, right?

ALINEJAD: Yes, that actually -- they tricked him from France to Iraq. They kidnapped him from there and they executed him.

So when FBI actually told me that you're not allowed to travel abroad, I was like, oh, my God, I wish some police in France warned Ruha Lazim and said that you are not allowed to go to Iraq.

So, you see, that breaks my heart that this is -- keep happening. Like for 40 years. But none of the western government take serious action.

BERMAN: Do you feel safe this morning?

ALINEJAD: To be honest, so I see police around. I'm sure that they're protecting me. But as far as the Islamic (ph) Republic is in power, not me, even you are not safe. Believe me, right now that I'm talking to you, the U.S. citizen, British citizen, Swedish citizen, German citizen, French citizen are being hostage in the hands of Iranian government.

[08:45:06]

And the government in Iran using them like bargaining chip to bring the western government under the table, have negotiation about nuclear deal. So -- and now they're trying to kidnap an American-Iranian citizen from New York to use me as a bargaining chip or, I don't know, execute me.

BERMAN: Do you know why specifically --

ALINEJAD: No.

BERMAN: Other than your activism, they came after you?

ALINEJAD: To be honest, I don't want to say that they're scared of me because my job is just give -- giving voice to voiceless people. I really actually want to show, this is my job. I'm asking people to be their own story tellers. And I have 5 million followers on my Instagram. I have 1 million on FaceBook. What I do, I give voice to these people. I want to actually show that I give voice to these mothers. Look -- kook at their face. They mothers who lost their beloved one. The Iranian government killed 1,500 protesters on last November protest, peaceful protest. They got killed. And these mothers never been heard in any media. So they send me videos, and I give them a voice. Is this like crime? Iranian women are forced to cover their hair. I have a big hair and I used to be forced --

BERMAN: You have great hair.

ALINEJAD: I used to be forced to cover them. So I asked Iranian women, if you want to share your story, just send me photos. That's all I do as an activist.

BERMAN: This plot to kidnap you and take you to Iran and do God knows what to you, will this change your activism?

ALINEJAD: Not at all. You know why? Because these mothers are my heroes. Millions of Iranians who share the photos and videos of themselves practicing their civil disobedience, those are like Rosa Parks of Iran. And they are my hero.

To be honest, I have fear inside me, but what gives me power, these people. I am going to stop my activities the day when Iranian people stop saying no to Islamic Republic.

BERMAN: The Biden administration, in general, the Justice Department, whoever you're in contact with, do they make -- how do they make you feel about your safety and your position at this moment?

ALINEJAD: The FBI did a great job to make me feel safe here. But to be honest, I'm a little bit disappointed with Biden's administration because I'm still waiting for them to take strong action.

When Jamal Khashoggi, this, you know, American-Saudi journalist got brutally murdered, the whole world, you know, made statements of condemnations. I need the same because another regime in the Middle East, Islamic Republic, was trying to kidnap me. So that is why I want Biden administration to be strong instead of just going after them, having a deal with them, they have to care about human rights as well.

BERMAN: I guess one more thing I want to -- how did they get the pictures of you? Who did they use to get the pictures of you? Do you have any idea?

ALINEJAD: Yes, they hired someone, an American investigator. They gave money to him. And the guy didn't know anything. So, actually, when I saw the picture of myself, I got goosebumps because I was watering my son's flowers. They took picture of my stepchildren. I don't want to scare them if they're looking at me. But they did. And they took picture of my husband. My husband was trying to make a joke saying, oh, I'm a good looking person.

BERMAN: He is a good looking guy. He's standing right there.

ALINEJAD: But thanks to him and my family here, they were really supportive. But I was shocked that they were following me, filming me, all the time. They were actually following my friends and taking old photos and videos to see which way I go every day.

I'm not as scared of being dead or being executed, but what scares me, that the whole world keeps silent about such a regime and allowing them to have such an oppression in the United States of America. That is more scary.

BERMAN: Masih Alinejad, I'm glad you're OK this morning. I hope you get some rest and I hope you get some peace.

ALINEJAD: Yes, thank you so much for having me. And I hope CNN will help Iranian people who do not have any voice to be heard.

BERMAN: We're there -- we're there covering it a lot. You know that. I think you very much for joining us this morning.

ALINEJAD: Thank you. I really appreciate it.

BERMAN: Amazing story.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:52:03]

KEILAR: Britney Spears is back in court today in a high stakes hearing that could transform her case. The legal question looming here, can Spears select and hire her own lawyer? Spears, of course, is fighting to end that 13-year long conservatorship which she has described as, quote, abusive.

And CNN's Chloe Melas is live for us in Los Angeles with more.

Chloe, so many people will be waiting to see what happens today.

CHLOE MELAS, CNN ENTERTAINMENT REPORTER: Good morning, Brianna.

Today is arguably the most important day in Britney's nearly 13-year conservatorship. I'm standing here in front of the Los Angeles County Superior Courthouse where in just a few hours Britney is expected to appear virtually.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MELAS (voice over): Just three weeks after Britney Spears made bombshell accusations during her testimony, she is set to speak in court once again. This time the hearing will hinge on whether the singer can choose her own attorney.

For the last nearly 13 years, Spears has had a court-appointed lawyer, Samuel D. Ingham. Ingham submitted his petition to resign on July 6th.

Now, CNN has learned from a source close to the case that Spears is in talks with prominent lawyer and former federal prosecutor Matthew Rosengart to represent her. Rosengart has worked with celebrities like Steven Spielberg, Sean Penn, Winona Ryder and NBA star Jimmy Butler. He had no comment when reached by CNN.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What do we want?

CROWD: Free Britney.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When do we want it?

CROWD: Now.

MELAS: Fans leading the free Britney movement are advocating for the pop star to be able to retain her own counsel.

MEGAN BRADFORD, FREE BRITNEY MOVEMENT LOS ANGELS: If Judge Penny (ph) doesn't allow Britney the right to hire her own attorney, there is going to be public outrage.

MELAS: And at least one family member agrees. In a court filing from July 1st, obtained by CNN, Spears' mother Lynne Spears, asking the court to grant Britney's wishes, stating, quote, her capacity is certainly different than it was in 2008. That's when the platinum selling artist experienced public meltdowns.

Following her lawyer's resignation, the pop star's conservator of her person, who handles her medical decisions, filed her own petition for the court to appoint a guardian ad litem to help aid the singer in finding an attorney. Judge Brenda Penny will also have to deal with the resignation of the co-conservator of the singer's $60 million estate. Bessemer Trust submitted their petition on July 2nd, citing, quote, changed circumstances. The wealth management firm had recently been appointed to work with the singer's father, Jamie Spears.

During Britney Spears' hearing last month, she claimed that she had been forced to perform, take lithium, and remain on birth control against her will. Her father has maintained to CNN that the conservatorship has done more good than harm, and that he's always acted in the best interests of his daughter.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

[08:55:08]

MELAS: Brianna, the judge could deny -- the judge could deny Britney's request to retain her own attorney. And you can imagine, that's going to really upset her. We will be listening to what Britney has to say virtually. I'll be in the courtroom. And you can imagine that's really going to upset the free Britney movement and fans all over the world.

KEILAR: Yes, and even people maybe who haven't been part of that movement but have been, you know, they've started paying attention to it for sure. So we'll be watching.

Chloe Melas, thank you so much.

So not only are the arguments against COVID vaccines often politically driven and ill informed, they're also just old, very old.

John Avlon with a "Reality Check."

JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Politicizing a pandemic is one of the dumbest things anyone can do but that's what we've seen during the COVID crisis. Even now, as vaccines have proven their effectiveness, saving as many as 279,000 lives according to research estimates, we still see roughly one-third of those eligible refusing to get vaccinated.

And with the delta variant spreading like wildfire among the unvaccinated, we seem headed towards a wave of self-inflicted tragedies.

Now, vaccine hesitancy can have a lot of causes, but under that broad umbrella is a specific strain of anti-vaxxers, folks who tap into the paranoid style in American politics while pushing an anti-science agenda. We've seen it in the strange nexus between anti-vaxxers in QAnon amplified in the stop the steal movement. We see it in anti-vaxx rants on right-wing TV, from demonizing Biden's efforts to get COVID under control, to sick musings that maybe vaccines get in the way of nature's plan to kill the weakest among us. And sometimes it takes the form of state policies like Tennessee, trying to stop vaccine promotion among teens, not just for COVID, but for other infections, like HPV.

But it turns out that a lot of these anti-vaccine themes are as old as vaccines themselves. So buckle up for a brief history of anti-vax conspiracy theories.

Let's start in the 1790s when small pox was combatted by an early vaccine but attacked by opponents as, quote, a foreign assault on traditional order. Sound familiar? And check out this contemporary cartoon showing people turning into cows because the vaccine's use of cow pox as a way to inoculate against small pox.

Now, fast forward to 1885, during a deadly outbreak in Montreal. Dr. Alexander M. Ross (ph) circulated this pamphlet decrying the tyranny of doctor craft (ph), complaining that the ravings of a mad press were pressuring parents into committing a crime against your innocent and helpless children by getting them vaccinated.

And just check out this pamphlet's cartoon kicker, showing a working man being forced into vaccination by a police officer and doctor, claiming it an outrage on personal liberty while claiming that there will be no work for those who refuse to have the mark of the beast on their bodies.

It's all there, the anti-government impulses, the anti-science suspicions, the religious overtones, all showing how COVID anti- vaxxers are using centuries old arguments.

Now, vaccine hesitancy in the African-American community is sometimes traced to the real and horrific Tuskegee experiments beginning in the 1930s when the U.S. Public Health Service recruited black men in Alabama who were suffering from syphilis and told them they were receiving treatment, but secretly withheld it. Dozens died. So the distrust here is rooted in real history. But the key point to remember is that medicine was withheld in the Tuskegee experiment. Receiving a simple dose of penicillin would have saved their lives.

Now, one final anti-vax milestone is worth mentioning. The case of discredited British Dr. Andrew Wakefield, who published a paper in 1998 claiming to show a connection between vaccines and autism. It was later proven to be full of falsified data and conflicts of interest, leaving the paper's retraction and loss of his medical license, but not before inspiring a new round of anti-vax conspiracies that gained high-profile converts and decreased immunization rates, which led to an increase in measles, for example.

That helped lay the groundwork for what we're seeing today, attempts to diminish the disease while playing up the alleged dangers of the vaccines. All amplified by social media and hyper partisan politics. But as you can see, that struggle between science and superstition has been going on for centuries. Science constantly evolves. Superstitions strangely do not.

So follow the facts and not your fears because vaccines save lives. And that's your "Reality Check."

BERMAN: It's just undeniable at this point.

John Avlon, thank you for that and thank you for the history lesson there. Very important.

One bit of information just in to CNN. You probably just heard our interview with Masih Alinejad who says she is -- was the target of an Iranian kidnap plot and there were charges filed by the FBI yesterday.

The Iranian regime, just after our interview, issued a statement denying the charges that they tried or were involved in a plot to kidnap her.

[08:59:59]

But you heard her story and you can take a look at the charges against the Iranians for trying to put her on a boat, get her to Venezuela and then take her to Iran to do God knows what. Quite a story.

KEILAR: Incredible interview that I would encourage all of our viewers to revisit, John.

BERMAN: CNN's coverage continues right now.