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New Day

Some Parts of U.S. Institute Mask Mandate Even for Those Who Are Vaccinated against COVID-19 Due to Rising Cases; New Reporting Indicates Chairman of Joint Chiefs of Staff Mark Milley Feared Former President Trump Would Start War with Iran to Remain in Power; Interview with Fmr. National Security Adviser John Bolton. Aired 8- 8:30a ET

Aired July 16, 2021 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:00:00]

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: Officials in Los Angeles County reinstating an indoor mask mandate even for the vaccinated, starting tomorrow, after reporting more than 1,000 new cases a day for the past week. And then last night you had the Yankees-Red Sox game being postponed after six Yankees tested positive. Not clear whether tonight's game is going to be played.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight's Team USA men's basketball exhibition game against Australia, that has been canceled. Starting guard Bradley Beal, he is going to missed the Olympics due to COVID health and safety protocols. For E! News host Catt Sadler and the NFL Network's Rich Eisen both battling COVID despite being vaccinated. They both warn their condition will be a lot worse had they not received the vaccine. Now the U.S. Surgeon General is issuing a warning about the deadly consequence of vaccine misinformation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. VIVEK MURTHY, U.S. SURGEON GENERAL: It's led them to turn down proven treatments and to choose not to get vaccinated. This has led to avoidable illnesses and death. Simply put, health information has cost us lives.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: Joining me now is Dr. Dave Chokshi, New York City health commissioner. Doctor, thank you so much for being with us now. I want to start with what's happening in Los Angeles. What's the scientific justification for reinstituting a mask mandate even for people who have been vaccinated?

DR. DAVE CHOKSHI, NEW YORK CITY HEALTH COMMISSIONER: This is an important question, and we've been following the science very closely, particularly in the context of the Delta variant, which now makes up 69 percent of cases that we're sequencing here in New York City. What we do know is that when you're fully vaccinated, it does offer strong protection against particularly severe illness. But there are some cases where you will see particular places, like Los Angeles, that's going through a surge right now, reinstate those mask mandates, primarily to protect people who are unvaccinated.

BERMAN: Right, but I guess the issue there is, then, unless you put down the mandate for everybody, the unvaccinated people just won't wear masks?

CHOKSHI: The most important thing is for unvaccinated people to wear masks, to distance, to get tested regularly, but sometimes the most effective way to do that is to extend it to the entire population.

BERMAN: Is that punishing vaccinated people because unvaccinated people aren't following the rules?

CHOKSHI: Well, the way that I think about it is we've been through so much over the last 18 months, and the way that we've gotten through it is we've had to band together, particularly when times are really tough.

BERMAN: What would it take for New York -- and this is under your authority to an extent -- what would it take for New York to reinstitute mask mandates?

CHOKSHI: Well, I'm grateful that in Mayor de Blasio, we have a leader who is committed to following the science and the data. Right now, the science does indicate, as you mentioned, that fully vaccinated people are well protected, and the data, although we're following it closely, shows that cases are increasing. But as yet, hospitalizations and deaths, the more severe illness that we're very concerned about, is not. So we have to continue following those indicators, and figure out what additional steps may be needed in the weeks ahead.

BERMAN: But no mask mandates in New York for now?

CHOKSHI: That's correct.

BERMAN: I want to talk about the Yankees-Red Sox. I'm disappointed the game was canceled because I'm a Red Sox fan. The bigger issue has to do with these new infections among the New York Yankees, many of which, though not all, because some of the infections appear to be with unvaccinated people, but most of them are breakthrough infections with vaccinated people. I don't believe any of them are symptomatic or very sick, certainly. But what kind of concerns does this raise that vaccinated people are being infected?

CHOKSHI: We are seeing with the Delta variant and with some of the other variants that they are more likely to evade the immune system. Whether someone has been previously infected or has vaccination, sometimes that can occur. It's important to put it in context, though. That remains quite rare, and particularly when one is fully vaccinated, that does give you strong protection against more severe disease.

BERMAN: And one of the questions both Brianna and I have had is what evidence, if any, have you seen that vaccinated people who are infected can spread the virus?

CHOKSHI: The chances of it are certainly lower than when an unvaccinated person is infected. And that's because your immune system is able to keep the virus under better control. It is possible, but it's much less likely.

BERMAN: How much of a problem is the vaccine misinformation that is being spewed out almost seems like as a policy by certain entertainment outlets?

CHOKSHI: I support the surgeon general's advisory from yesterday, which is calling attention to this issue. And I do think it's a problem. It's why many people remain unvaccinated despite the overwhelming evidence that the vaccines are safe and astonishingly effective.

[08:05:03]

I'll give you some information that supports this from New York City. We published data earlier this week that showed that thus far our vaccination campaign has prevented a quarter-million cases and saved over 8,000 lives. This means that we have to extend that protection of vaccination to as many people as we can and get the science-based information to people who can benefit from it.

BERMAN: I just want to end on this statistic, if I have it right. The statistics put up by New York City are still that 98 percent of deaths and hospitalizations are among unvaccinated people still, correct?

CHOKSHI: That's exactly right.

BERMAN: Even hospitalizations?

CHOKSHI: Yes.

BERMAN: Pretty much everyone going to the hospital right now infected, unvaccinated?

CHOKSHI: Yes, and that's why this is what keeps me up at night. We have something that can prevent the suffering that so many people have been through over the last 18 months. We have to get as many people vaccinated as quickly as possible. I feel a real sense of urgency about this.

BERMAN: Well, we wish you the best of luck. It's so important. Dr. Dave Chokshi, thanks so much for being with us this morning. Great talking to you.

CHOKSHI: Thanks for having me.

BERMAN: New this morning, it wasn't just a coup that General Mark Milley feared. It was the possibility that the former president would start a full-blown war with Iran in hopes of having it help him stay in power after losing the election. That's according to brand-new reporting from our next guest, CNN global affairs analyst Susan Glasser. She is a staff writer at "The New Yorker." And Susan, you are writing a book along with your husband, Peter Baker. In the process of reporting your book, you discovered not only was General Mark Milley, who has been in the news a lot, concerned about the idea of this coup and stopping the president from sort of launching a coup after the election, but concerned that he would somehow push it too far with Iran and start a war. This is a quote from your upcoming book, your reporting here, an article you put in "The New Yorker." "Milley was worried that Trump might set in motion a full-scale conflict that was not justified. If you do this, you're going to have an f-ing war, Milley would say." So talk to us about these concerns with Iran.

SUSAN GLASSER, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: That's right, John. Again and again, this would come up in meetings in the Oval Office after the election, and I think this was something that for Milley, it was one of those things he just couldn't beat back. And he kept warning Trump that -- Trump was advocating a missile strike. He kept saying, if you launch a strike, it's going to escalate with the Iranians. And it was one of what Milley called two nightmare scenarios that he was worried about in the aftermath of the election.

KEILAR: It seems like this is a scenario, a nightmare scenario, Susan, that a number of officials had. Just sort of more broadly, the Speaker Nancy Pelosi was concerned and had a conversation with Milley about the possibility of a nuclear weapon being used. And I think at the time you heard a lot of people even close to the president saying don't worry too much about what he's doing with what turned out to be the big lie, really downplaying that.

And you also get that sense as well with not worrying too much about what might happen with some sort of foreign engagement. And now we're getting this look at just how dire it was.

GLASSER: Well, again, I think what Milley was doing, in a way, he was taking the playbook in the final days of Richard Nixon's tenure. Remember the defense secretary back then, James Schlesinger, very famously essentially said, don't follow any orders that might be problematic from the White House without checking with me or Kissinger first. And I think in a way, this was what Milley was doing, not to disregard White House orders, but to put everybody on high alert that there might be something problematic.

It speaks to, unfortunately, the very, very stressful moment and the fear of those surrounding President Trump that he might do anything at all. It really was a dangerous and volatile moment, but clearly the leadership of the uniformed military was on, what I would say, was high alert basically for many months.

BERMAN: So, how did Milley's specific concerns about Iran resolve themselves?

GLASSER: Well, the very last time that Mark Milley, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff spoke with Donald Trump, and I mean period, last time, was Sunday, January 3rd. That is two days before what would end up being the interaction at the Capitol. And in that meeting on Iran at the White House, Trump came back from Mar-a-Lago early from his Christmas vacation, they had this meeting. Trump was raising recent reports from the IAEA about Iran's nuclear capacity.

In the end, not only did Milley once again argue against this, but in the account that he gave to others, both Secretary of State Mike Pompeo and Robert O'Brien, the national security advisor, both of them Iran hawks, said in the end, it's too late, Mr. President, or some version of that, essentially your time in office has run out and we can't do this now.

[08:10:15]

And Trump agreed to it. By the way, in that meeting, at the very end is when Trump did raise the forthcoming January 6th rally with Milley and with his acting defense secretary. And he said basically, are you ready for it? It's going to be big.

BERMAN: Indeed, indeed it was. Susan Glasser, we appreciate your reporting on this. Thank you so much for sticking with us and joining us this morning.

GLASSER: Thank you.

KEILAR: And coming up, Trump's former national security advisor John Bolton is going to join us. How far does he think that Trump would have gone to stay in power?

BERMAN: Plus, the Biden administration calling out Facebook as COVID misinformation spreads. A former Facebook insider joins us live.

And one week to go until the Summer Olympics, but Tokyo in a COVID emergency, what will that look like?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KEILAR: Former President Trump attacking the chairman of the Joint Chiefs General Mark Milley over new reports that Milley feared Trump would attempt a coup after the election. Trump denied the reports. He said, "if I was going to do a coup, one of the last people I would want to do it with is General Mark Milley."

[08:15:04]

Well, joining me now is former national security adviser to then President Trump, John Bolton. He is the author of the book "The Room Where It Happened."

And, Ambassador, I should note for our viewers who couldn't see you because you were off screen, you were chuckling as you saw Trump's response. Tell me why.

JOHN BOLTON, FORMER TRUMP NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: Well, it's juvenile. And it's really it's unbecoming of a former president of the United States to refer to people who served the country well and served in his administration as if they're in a kindergarten class. And it's a sad commentary on Trump himself, but I think also reflective of much of his behavior during four years in office.

And I'm laughing and I shouldn't laugh because it's more serious than that, but it's so typical that I can't stop myself.

KEILAR: And I want to ask you because as we see these revelations about Milley in a slew of books about the Trump years, I do want to note for our viewers, you were kind of long gone from the White House by the time some of these periods had happened, right, leading up the summer into the election and so on.

But Milley thought that it was feasible that Trump would attempt a violent coup if he had thought it realistically possible.

Do you agree with him?

BOLTON: Well, I think Trump was capable of doing almost anything. And I would just say although I was gone from the White House, I was still under attack by Trump who --

KEILAR: Very much.

BOLTON: -- has a civil lawsuit against me, tried to launch a grand jury as well.

I think -- I have the highest respect for Mark Milley. I think he's the right person for the job as chairman of the joint chiefs. I thought that when I was still in government. And I think he was doing his best, number one, to uphold the Constitution. And this was -- this is where his loyalty and I think the loyalty of all the chiefs was, something Trump fundamentally didn't understand. He had one concept of loyalty, which is loyalty to Donald Trump.

And there is an element of personal loyalty for any senior adviser to the president. But ultimately, your loyalty is to the Constitution. And Milley understood that without qualification.

And number two, it's a triumph of our success of control in the military, that Milley knew that the military itself would be in danger if it got sucked into American politics. With somebody like Donald Trump, for whom everything is politics, it's very, very difficult. He and Mark Esper, the secretary of defense, had a very difficult course to walk. And I think the fact we got through this successfully is a credit to both of them for the thinking they did and the support they had from their colleagues.

KEILAR: But it sounds like you trust his assessment, saying you think Trump was capable of anything. I -- is that fair?

I want to ask you, because in November of 2020, you told my colleague Jake Tapper -- he asked you about the possibility of Trump staging a violent coup. This was just in a couple weeks after the election. The big lie was really taking hold.

And you said it gives Trump too much credit. Do you look differently on that now?

BOLTON: No. The idea of Trump staging a coup does give him too much credit. That requires advance thinking, planning, strategizing, building up support, and I just don't think he's capable of that. What he was capable of was on a daily basis doing something more and more outrageous than he had done the day before, all to the same end of staying in power. The notion that Trump could have orchestrated a coup does give him too

much credit. And the fact is the efforts that he did make got more and more extreme, more and more outrageous, and various institutions and individuals were able to come together and keep the Constitution moving.

KEILAR: Did you ever hear Trump talk about Nazis or Hitler?

BOLTON: Well, he had, he had little or no sense of history and because his father was German, he from time to time talked about Germans, not usually in a very complimentary way. And certainly not in a complimentary fashion about Angela Merkel, the chancellor of Germany who was just here in Washington.

I think Trump doesn't think in philosophical or even policy terms. That gives him too much credit, too. So, so many things he said about history were based on no knowledge whatever. And after awhile I just didn't take them seriously.

KEILAR: Do you consider Trump a fascist because Milley clearly does?

BOLTON: I think that requires believing Trump can think in a consistent philosophical framework for more than about ten or 15 seconds and it's just not possible. He is -- he is all about Donald Trump. And he is all about Donald Trump staying in office, which is why he is still at it, attacking the election coming up with ridiculous theories that Mike Pence somehow didn't do what he should have done, that he's going to be returned to office because states are going to reverse their Electoral College votes.

[08:20:01]

These are -- these are conclusions that you could draw only if you were Donald Trump.

KEILAR: You have been saying for months that Trump's political base is shrinking, that you are looking at data that is telling you that. And so I wonder what you think, because Republicans, they clearly do not think that. I think it's fair to say a lot of these congressional Republicans probably have a pretty good pulse of their constituencies and where they are politically and ideologically and whether they support Trump or not. And I wonder how you square what you are saying, a shrinking Trump base with Kevin McCarthy going again to see Trump, this time to Bedminster to kiss the ring.

BOLTON: Because I think there is a disjunction between real people which is what both the national poll and a poll of New Hampshire that I've taken shows, that Trump's base is shrinking. I think in the Washington bubble, in the media if I may say so, and in some elected Republican, some state parties, they are still absorbed with Trump.

KEILAR: Some? I mean, it seems like a majority.

BOLTON: Well, I think -- no, think, actually, I've got a poll coming out Monday. I don't want to step on my own news, but I think it shows people are moving away from Trump, continue to move away from Trump. That many of his actions, including his criticism of Mike Pence and what he did on January the 6th are reducing his support among Republicans. I think we need more Republicans to step up and say so.

KEILAR: House Republicans are building essentially a midterm strategy around Trump being the leader of the party. They are not -- they're not believing anything of the ilk that you are describing right now.

BOLTON: Well, I think they are part of the Washington bubble, but I think if they look at their own constituencies, they will find -- obviously it varies from district to district, but I do think Republicans, as you would expect, are looking ahead and not in the rearview mirror of Donald Trump, who is obsessed with whether or not the 2020 election was stolen.

Real people have real problems, not least of which may be rising inflation in our country, and they want people who are going to address those solutions. If Republicans work on policy, that's always been the path to success. It has nothing to do with Donald Trump.

KEILAR: I want to have you back on in the future to talk about that for sure. We'll see if you were right on that.

BOLTON: Well, stay tuned to the poll on Monday.

KEILAR: In one of these books, Trump is reported to have told advisers that he hoped you would die of COVID. What is your response to learning that?

BOLTON: It's very typical of Trump. He has, he has an obsession with himself and you're either for him or against him, and I would remind those who are kissing his ring now, you know, Mike Pence who had the hardest job in Washington for four years as vice president, constitutionally he used to say he was the only person at the White House who couldn't resign. He had to stay loyal. That was his obligation, and he did.

Right up until January the 6th. And it's never been the same between pence and Trump. So everybody who thinks you can kiss his ring on a daily basis and you'll be fine, just wait till the one time you don't. It's a very dangerous path to follow.

KEILAR: Let's talk about Afghanistan. You were ambassador to the U.N. during George W. Bush's tenure during the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. He, your first big boss, I guess you could say, said this this week.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, FORMER PRESIDENT: I think it is, yeah. I think because I think the consequence are going to be unbelievably bad. And I'm sad. I spent -- Laura and I spent a lot of time with Afghan women, and they're scared. And I think about all the interpreters and people that helped, not only U.S. troops, but NATO troops, and they're just -- it seems like they're going to be left behind to be slaughtered by these very brutal people. And it breaks my heart.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: Bush, to be clear, was asked if it was a mistake, and he said, I think it is. I knew you agree with him on that, perhaps for I think singularly your guiding reason might be slightly different. I want to talk to you about that in a moment.

But first, I want to ask you, why -- why is Bush blasting Biden now when, you know, even as you have said, Trump was going to do the same thing? Why is he doing this now?

BOLTON: Well, I think president bush has done something really remarkable. It's how former presidents ought to behave. He's tried to stay out of politics, and it's been very rare when he's come forward and said anything like the passage you just showed.

But I think it's because he remembers 9/11. It's 20 years ago now and some people weren't born and a lot of people don't remember very well. George W. Bush is never going to forget it. I think those of us who were in his administration at the time are never going to forget it. And the reason we went into Afghanistan was to punish those who did it and make sure it never happens again.

And that really is the risk that we face now. The concern that Bush has shown for the people of Afghanistan I think is very real, very deep, and widely shared among the American people.

[08:25:04]

KEILAR: It is widely shared. When you've been asked about the reason to stay, you say it's in the guiding interests of American national security. You say there could be another attack on the homeland, that it would be national security malpractice to sort of open up the possibility for that.

But I want you to listen, if you could, to what General David Petraeus who commanded troops in Afghanistan said when I asked him about there becoming a threat to the homeland because of this draw down.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID PETRAEUS, FORMER CIA DIRECTOR: I'm not as convinced that they will be able to threaten our homeland the way al Qaeda did when it planned the 9/11 attacks on Afghan soil under Taliban control, and also conducted the initial training of the attackers there. That would take a good bit longer, and I don't think they have that capability. Moreover, I'm much more confident in the capability of U.S. intelligence and a variety of other processes, organizations and so forth that we put together to ensure that we detect something akin to a 9/11 attack.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: What do you think about that?

BOLTON: Well, I don't think the risk of a terrorist attack from Afghanistan is going to come the day after Taliban takes back over.

KEILAR: Yeah.

BOLTON: I think it's going to take more time and that's really what the risk is.

I would rather defend innocent American civilians there than in the streets and the skies over America.

And number two, there is another aspect to this. It's not just terrorism in Afghanistan. If Taliban takes back over, the hand of the extremist in Pakistan will be strengthened and the risk of a Pakistani Taliban take over of that government increases substantially, I think, unfortunately. And such a government would have controls of dozens or scores of nuclear weapons which everybody ought to be worried about, and we lose our ability to watch on the west of Afghanistan what Iran is up to.

This was a central strategic position for the United States. We're giving it away. We're getting nothing in return.

KEILAR: But he still thinks that there are organizations, that there is intel in place that is going to prevent even what you are saying.

BOLTON: With all due respect, I don't think it's enough. There's simply no substitute for being on the ground. And for not just the military forces that are there, but the other capabilities that we have that we can't sustain without the military being there.

KEILAR: So that is a forever war.

BOLTON: Well, I think the threat of terrorism is what we're talking about. It's not like American troops have been conducting a D-Day every day for the last 20 years. We have had foreign deployments since World War II for extended periods of time because it's in our national interest.

The question isn't, do you like the length of the war or not? The question is what do you do to best protect America?

KEILAR: Americans don't want it.

BOLTON: Americans have not been given the arguments for the last 15 years.

KEILAR: They've been given all -- you know, sir, they've been given all of the arguments.

BOLTON: No, they haven't, they have not.

One of the ironies is the opponents of our presence in Afghanistan has convinced people we're there purely as an act of charity for the Afghans. Many Americans would say, OK, it's time for them to defend themselves. The point is we were there for Americans. The point wasn't made by Trump, Biden doesn't agree with it and it wasn't made by Obama. KEILAR: But they are listening to, for instance, the assessment of

someone like General David Petraeus who is well-respected and was on the ground commanding U.S. forces there, and he doesn't agree with you on that.

BOLTON: Well --

KEILAR: So, I guess my point is the Americans have reason in an educated way taking in the opinions of experts to say, yes, that confirms that there should not be U.S. troops there.

BOLTON: That may be their opinion. I'm not disputing the survey as correct. I think the arguments have not been made by the top leadership of America long enough to be able to convince them.

When you have an absence of debate, it's very easy for people to get a misimpression. This is an act of national security malpractice, I think, both by the Trump and by the Biden administrations. And I fear greatly, but it's innocent people who will pay the price.

KEILAR: Do you look back on the mistakes made during the bush administration and realize that has a lot to do with why Americans think that this is not a good idea?

BOLTON: Well, I don't think they have necessarily thought through what's right and what's wrong about it. What was right was to strike al Qaeda and to do the damage to it that we did. I think where we veered off in the wrong direction was nation building, whether it's in Afghanistan or Iraq.

And I come back to my basic point, we're not there for them. We're there for us. We're not going to build their nation for them. They're going to build it.

But whether we're deployed there as whether we're deployed in Germany, South Korea or Japan depends on a judgment what's in our interest. And to give those positions up I think is a big mistake.

KEILAR: Many differences between Afghanistan and Germany and Afghanistan and Japan.