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John Bolton is Interviewed on the Afghanistan Withdrawal; FaceBook Users Promote Misinformation; Jill Biden to Attend Tokyo Olympics; Robbie Rist is Interviewed about "The Brady Bunch." Aired 8:30-9a ET

Aired July 16, 2021 - 08:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:30:00]

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: This between Afghanistan and Germany and Afghanistan and Japan. But they --

JOHN BOLTON, FORMER TRUMP NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: But Germany -- the deployments in Germany and Japan were part of a very long war. Very long. A 45 year-long war with communism.

KEILAR: Yes.

BOLTON: That American leaders explained to the American people and they were willing to sustain and --

KEILAR: There was no social media, right?

BOLTON: That ended in --

KEILAR: That --

BOLTON: Look, look, social media don't make any difference. It's a question of leadership. You can convey it through a lot of different measures.

Franklin Roosevelt started the fireside chat over radio. Leaders can use the media. The media shouldn't use the leaders. And if the leaders are making the case about what America's strategic interests are in, and they can make the case effectively, Americans will support it, as they did during the Cold War.

KEILAR: But what about the parallels between Afghanistan and Vietnam?

BOLTON: Well, I think -- I think the parallels that people are drawing are incorrect at this point. The issue we're talking about in Afghanistan is not continued combat operations. It's been a long time since it was seriously a war that involved American troops. What we're talking about is making sure that terrorists don't take sufficient base in Afghanistan or Kazakhstan to attack the United States.

KEILAR: Well, you're -- are you -- you're trying to argue -- you're trying to say that we -- we, the U.S. -- you're trying to say the U.S. hasn't been at war in the conventional sense with the involvement of U.S. troops?

BOLTON: I'm saying the terrorist threat to the United States is not a conventional military threat and it takes a different kind of response. And that's what we've been trying to do in Afghanistan, saying, well, the Afghans have to defend themselves is a little bit like saying, well, you know, the Belgians are going to have to defend themselves against the Germans. And if they can't, it's a European problem. It's a long way away.

The issue is not the Belgians or the Afghans. The issue is what keeps America safest. And I think having deployments in Afghanistan and in Iraq to prevent the terrorists from getting sufficient sanctuary so they can plan and implement attacks on the United States or our friends and allies very much in the interest of innocent American civilians.

KEILAR: Did the U.S. lose the war in Afghanistan?

BOLTON: No, I don't -- I think we've walked away from it. I think it's a huge mistake.

KEILAR: How can you -- walking away, how is that not losing?

BOLTON: That's what --

KEILAR: I mean can you explain what you mean by that?

BOLTON: Because we weren't defeated. You have to be defeated to lose a war. We've given up because we've lost patience. That's a sad commentary about the current administration, but it's not a defeat for the United States.

KEILAR: So it's just attrition, then, basically.

BOLTON: It's a mistake.

KEILAR: It's a mistake, as you say.

I'm curious what you think about, you know, we've heard from President Biden where he said that you have to get out, right? That this is going --

BOLTON: I mean, the question -- the question is a risk assessment. And my judgment is that removing American forces increases the risk to American civilians.

KEILAR: Well, let me -- let me -- can I ask you to that -- yes, and there's disagreement on that. But what his point was that you have American troops there, the Taliban was slowing down its attacks because there were, obviously, ongoing negotiations and they were awaiting the withdrawal of U.S. troops and so they actually pulled back. He said to maintain a U.S. presence would have put U.S. troops at considerable harm.

BOLTON: Well, I -- KEILAR: And you have, as you're aware, you have the sons, certainly -- I don't know, maybe the daughters as well -- of Afghan veterans who have served in Afghanistan.

BOLTON: And never forget what the Taliban say, referring to Americans, they say, you have the watches, we have the time.

KEILAR: Finally, I just want to ask you, you didn't -- you were asked to testify in the first impeachment trial, and you didn't. And I wonder if, especially as we've heard so much lately from former Trump administration officials who clearly thought things privately at the time but didn't speak out at the time, and you had the chance to speak out later. Do you regret not doing that?

BOLTON: Well, it's a complicated answer, but I will put it this way. I think the effort to impeach Trump over Ukraine, which is where I could have testified, was conducted in a way that achieved the exact opposite of the objective that Nancy Pelosi and the advocates of impeachment wanted. And it was foreseeable that it was going to be that way. They wanted to punish or diminish, at a minimum, restrain and deter Donald Trump. And, in fact, their effort in impeachment, because it was so badly flawed, emboldened him, made him convinced that he could do a number of things and escape the consequence.

And I think that whole effort was a mistake. The way they conducted it was a mistake. And when Nancy Pelosi or others say, hey, I've got a great idea of how to stop Donald Trump, let's jump off the cliff together. No, I don't feel any obligation to follow them off.

KEILAR: Well, let's put Nancy Pelosi aside. You are --

[08:35:01]

BOLTON: And the advocates of impeachment generally.

KEILAR: You are John Bolton, right? You can do what you want to do, speak for yourself, disavow whatever political path you see them on. Why didn't you do that? Why didn't you speak for you?

BOLTON: Yes, well --

KEILAR: For the country?

BOLTON: Because during -- because during that period, among other things, I was being held captive, in effect, in a prepublication review process of my book. And as I think the facts show, we asked them, we asked the White House to expedite clearance of what could have been the testimony on Ukraine, and they wouldn't do it.

KEILAR: So, I mean, I -- look, I have no doubt that it would have been a considerable sacrifice yourself to do it, or potential legal peril.

BOLTON: Well, no, no.

KEILAR: You still could have done it.

BOLTON: No, no. It -- and it wouldn't have made any difference. I did say finally to the Senate, look, if --

KEILAR: We'll never know, though, will we?

BOLTON: Because the White House argument that even if whatever I had said turned out to be true, it didn't amount to an impeachable offense. That argument had already prevailed.

The flaw was in the initial investigation to focus it so narrowly on Ukraine. Why? Because they wanted it over with so it didn't influence the Democratic presidential nomination contest. That was the key strategic mistake that they made.

And the outcome was predictable. By shunning any effort to persuade congressional Republicans to support this, simple arithmetic meant it was doomed to fail since you need two-thirds of the Senate could convict. So I saw that as -- as an effort that was entirely political, doomed to failure, and it would have the reaction -- it would have the consequence, in fact it did, that Trump became emboldened. He had been impeached and he had escaped.

KEILAR: I just -- I will final -- I will leave you finally with this because I see sort of a nexus in the philosophies of this. On one hand we're talking about Afghanistan. And there are many who will say it is doomed to fail so why bother. And that's what you're saying about impeachment.

BOLTON: No.

KEILAR: It was doomed to fail. It's -- I'm not going to use my voice.

BOLTON: No.

KEILAR: I'm not going to --

BOLTON: There's a time and a place to have your say, and I felt that the say I had in 500 pages was comprehensive and it was important to understand that. You know, in the media, people listen for little anecdotes that go for 30 seconds a show. That would have been wasted in the impeachment effort the way it was constructed as, in fact, it turned out. And I felt that the full story was much more important. I don't owe a duty to follow Nancy Pelosi's strategy.

KEILAR: I'm not saying that you do.

BOLTON: No, but that's basically -- people said, you had your chance at the impeachment trial. That whole proceeding was a big mistake, and it convinced Trump that he was bullet proof.

KEILAR: Ambassador John Bolton, thank you so much for being so generous with your time this morning. We appreciate it.

BOLTON: Glad to be with you.

KEILAR: And, up next, the White House singling out FaceBook for letting COVID lies spread. How some Republicans are now spinning it.

BERMAN: And Olympic athletes testing positive for COVID with just a week to go before the games.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:42:17]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEN PSAKI, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: There's about 12 people who are producing 65 percent of anti-vaccine misinformation on social media platforms. All of them remain active on FaceBook despite some even being banned on other platforms, including FaceBook, ones that FaceBook owns.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: The White House calling out FaceBook for its role in the spread of misinformation on coronavirus as vaccination rates decline and cases are on the rise.

Let's bring in Roger McNamee, an early FaceBook investor who has since become a vocal critic of social media giant and is co-founder of Elevation Partners.

Roger, thanks so much for being with us.

What do you see as FaceBook's role and responsibility in the spread of misinformation, particularly when it comes to vaccines?

ROGER MCNAMEE, EARLY FACEBOOK INVESTOR: So, John, the problem we're faced with is that FaceBook is based on people's attention. They are worth $1 trillion because, to a degree greater than any media company before them, they have the ability to grab people's attention and to manipulate their behavior. And what they've found is that the most effective content for doing that is disinformation, hate speech, and conspiracy theories. The algorithms promote those things because people can't look away.

And in the context of the COVID pandemic, FaceBook played a huge role in amplifying anti-vax conspiracy theories and all of the politicization of the pandemic and the vaccine program that has undermined our response.

I think at least 400,000 people have died in the United States because COVID is a political football as opposed to a public health crisis.

BERMAN: So it seems to me what you're suggesting, your claim here, it's not a bug, it's somehow a feature for FaceBook?

MCNAMEE: Well, it's part of the business model. I mean, from their point of view, it's -- it is what they do. And all of this, you know, has been out in plain sight for a long time. I think the problem is that policymakers were so used to the benevolence of technology, which is the way things were from the '50s through the early 2000s, that when tech became predatory, when the business models grew to the scale of nations so that companies like FaceBook and Google could influence the politics of countries and undermine just the whole society of these countries, policy makers have not been able to respond effectively. They just don't move fast enough.

BERMAN: Well, along those lines, the White House outlined a few steps they would like to see FaceBook take to make this come to an end. And as soon as the White House did that, the House minority leader, or minority follower, Kevin McCarthy, came out with this statement.

Listen to what he said.

[08:45:02]

Oh, it's a tweet here. The Biden administration just announced they are working with FaceBook to censor more Americans. Big tech and big government want the same thing, to control you as a reminder America is a land of freedom.

Essentially what Kevin McCarthy is staying there is that there shouldn't be controls like this.

MCNAMEE: So, John, the problem with what Kevin McCarthy said is that he's not interested in public health. He's interested in winning a political fight.

And the challenge that we face as a country is that our citizens are dying unnecessarily because people have been convinced that there is something devious about the vaccines, which are, in fact, a miracle. And people are belligerently declaring their independence and saying, we don't have to do this.

And in a functioning democracy, we would recognize that we all have a responsibility as citizens to work together for the betterment of all. And we have lost sight of that.

And FaceBook has played a huge role in that. And if the Biden administration wants to be successful, they're going to have to recognize that depending on FaceBook to regulate itself has failed. We've been trying that for the last four or five years. They really need to actually bring the hammer down. They have the tools, they just need to use them.

BERMAN: One thing I just think we can all agree on is that vaccines are a miracle. The health commissioner here in New York City just told me that 98 percent of the patients they're seeing in New York City hospitals -- 98 percent of hospitalized, not just deaths, are unvaccinated people.

Roger McNamee, thank you so much for being with us this morning. I appreciate your time.

MCNAMEE: Thank you.

BERMAN: So, Dr. Jill Biden set to travel to Japan next week for the opening ceremonies at the Olympics. This will be her first solo trip as first lady.

CNN's Will Ripley live in Tokyo.

Will, traditionally U.S. presidents don't attend the games, but there are a few who have.

WILL RIPLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: There have been exceptions over the years, yes, but in this case, President Biden has his hands full at home. He did express support to Japan's prime minister, Yoshihide Suga, for holding the games. And he is sending, in his place, the first lady, her first, as you mentioned, solo trip abroad after she's been traveling the U.S. promoting coronavirus vaccines. And she's heading to a country with one of the lowest vaccination rates in all of the developed world.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RIPLEY (voice over): First Lady Jill Biden will travel to Tokyo next week leading the U.S. delegation at the Olympic Games. It's not her first time. The first lady represented the United States alongside then Vice President Joe Biden at the 2010 winter games in Vancouver.

JILL BIDEN, FIRST LADY OF THE UNITED STATES: You are the best of the best, and we could not be more proud or excited to be here to cheer on Team USA.

RIPLEY: This year the first lady will be going solo, just like former First Lady Michelle Obama in 2012 for the London games.

MICHELLE OBAMA, FORMER FIRST LADY: This only happens every few years, so try to have fun.

RIPLEY: And while many presidents have hosted American Olympians at the White House over the years --

BARACK OBAMA, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: What you guys did was inspire us. You made us proud. And, as president, you made me especially proud to see how you conducted yourself on a world stage.

RIPLEY: Former President George W. Bush became the first acting U.S. president to attend the games abroad at the Beijing Olympics.

GEORGE W. BUSH, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: I'm looking forward to cheering the athletes. I think it will be good for these athletes who have worked hard to see their president waving that flag.

RIPLEY: His father, former President George H.W. Bush, led the U.S. delegation to Athens in 2004, more than ten years after leaving the Oval Office.

RONALD REAGAN, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: Celebrating the 23rd Olympian of the modern era, I declare open the Olympic games of Los Angeles.

RIPLEY: In 1984, Ronald Regan was the first sitting president to attend the Olympics opening ceremony when the United States hosted the summer games in Los Angeles.

Former President Bill Clinton also attended the opening ceremony at the 1996 Atlanta summer Olympics. He insisted the competitions continue just days later following the deadly bombing at the Centennial Olympic Park. BILL CLINTON, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: We are all agreed, the games will

go on. We will take every necessary step to protect the athletes and those who are attending the games.

RIPLEY: This year, following a one-year delay due to the coronavirus pandemic, the 2020 summer Olympics will happen after Japan declared a state of emergency last week. Dr. Anthony Fauci says he's confident the first lady will be safe based on COVID-19 protocols in place in Tokyo.

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: I believe that there's no reason right now, given the situation, that the protocol to protect her health, I think, will be also rather stringent. So I don't have a concern about that.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

[08:50:05]

RIPLEY: Dr. Biden is fully vaccinated. She will not have to quarantine upon arrival in Japan, unlike most foreign visitors coming for the Olympics. And when she returns to the U.S., she also will not have to quarantine following CDC guidance.

But, John, her presence here is certainly a tricky situation. The U.S. wants to support the athletes who have worked their hearts out to get here. But, at the same time, the majority of Japanese don't support the Olympics. In fact, there were two protests in Hiroshima and in Tokyo just within the last few hours saying that the Olympics should be canceled.

BERMAN: This is going to be something to see, Will, I have to say. We're just one week away.

Thank you so much for being there to cover it for us.

KEILAR: As CNN celebrates the history of the sitcom, we are joined by a mystery guest from one of the all-time greats. Berman doesn't know who this is. He's going to have to guess it. We're going to try to stump him.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KEILAR: All right, this is the segment I have been waiting for.

[08:55:0]

CNN has been celebrating the sitcom with an all-new original series, and we have a special mystery guest this morning to play off of that.

Now, Berman has no idea who this is. He just doesn't know. This is sort of a new feeling for me. But, anyways, we're not going to reveal this until he figures it out.

So I'm going to give you some clues here, Berman. And I'm going to start with this, where everyone knows the name. BERMAN: That's -- OK, it's at "Cheers."

KEILAR: No. No. OK. My clues are good because they're, you know, anyways.

BERMAN: OK.

KEILAR: They're a little -- they're clues, but designed to make you look silly. OK, just kidding.

OK, famous.

BERMAN: Famous?

KEILAR: You can pass.

BERMAN: Pass.

KEILAR: If you're like not going to get it.

OK. All right, classic.

BERMAN: Pass.

KEILAR: Family.

BERMAN: Well, "Brady Bunch"?

KEILAR: OK. Short lived.

BERMAN: Uh, I don't know.

KEILAR: You're on to something. Short lived, pass. OK, archeologists.

BERMAN: Archeologists?

Pass.

KEILAR: Shark.

BERMAN: Well, that's the Hawaii -- that would be the Hawaii special of "Brady Bunch."

KEILAR: OK, so you're onto something. So now we want you to guess who the character is.

Glasses.

BERMAN: Jan. Oliver.

KEILAR: Cousin.

BERMAN: Oliver. It's Cousin Oliver.

KEILAR: Oh, yes, you said it, Cousin Oliver. That is right.

BERMAN: Cousin.

KEILAR: Here we go. Robbie Rist with us here.

Berman, I know you're a huge -- you're actually -- Robbie, you're his favorite. You're his favorite sitcom character.

So, Berman, take it away.

BERMAN: Cousin Oliver, I don't know what to say, first of all, to this because it was always -- I just feel as if you didn't get the respect that you deserved in history as being someone who really drew us even closer to the Bradys, if that was even possible.

ROBBIE RIST, ACTOR, PLAYED "COUSIN OLIVER" ON "THE BRADY BUNCH": Well, I don't know, we're still talking about it 50 years later. So, I mean --

BERMAN: Well, but why wasn't there a Cousin Oliver spin-off?

RIST: Oh, boy, that's a question for the ages, isn't it? Oh, by the way, first off, I just want to say, it's a pleasure for me to be on one of the channels that smart people watch.

BERMAN: I appreciate that.

KEILAR: Thank you.

RIST: I just wanted to --

BERMAN: I appreciate that.

RIST: I wanted to throw -- I wanted to throw that in there.

BERMAN: Who was the smartest Brady?

RIST: But, yes, I don't know -- who was the -- me.

BERMAN: OK, I agree with that, fully. All right, keep going, I'm sorry.

RIST: Yes. Yes, no, I mean, we're still talking about the show. So, like, I don't know. Yes, I never got a spin-off, blah, blah, blah, whatever. History is what it is. But the fact remains that I'm 57 years old, and for a job I did when I was nine for six weeks, I'm now talking on global television with you guys. So I call it a win.

BERMAN: First of all -- first of all, you haven't aged a bit, OK. So you look exactly like you did on the show. It was only six weeks of work? What was it like to work -- to walk onto a set? How many -- it was like the Bradys had been around for what, like, five or six years at that point. What was it like to walk onto a set where everyone had been working together and you're the new guy?

RIST: Well, I don't know. It kind of turned into something that I did a lot in my career. But, you know, I was nine. So like everything was great. You know, I didn't -- I had to go to school for only three hours that day and I was -- I mean where I was not necessarily a -- I was more of a $6 million man guy. I was -- I was aware of the fact that I was on a very, very popular television show. And also I don't think it really reached to this level of, you know, recognizability without going through its kitsch (ph) phase in the '90s where everyone went, oh, that Brady show, that's pretty silly, isn't it? And so, yes. So it -- I'm not sure where I was going with that. OH, well, next question.

BERMAN: Look, I never -- I never thought it was silly. I never thought it was silly. I always thought it was very important and very serious.

Did you hate the Partridges? That's another question I've always had. Like, seriously. Like, you know --

RIST: Not -- not --

BERMAN: You must have.

KEILAR: Come on.

RIST: No, no, no. I -- and, you know, I still talk to Bonaduce on occasion.

KEILAR: That's awesome.

RIST: You know, look, we were all -- and you guys know, I mean, in news world, it's a community. And so the acting world is very similar. And there's people you get along with, there's people you don't.

BERMAN: I hate the Partridges.

RIST: Oh, well, sure. I don't hate all the Partridges.

BERMAN: OK.

RIST: This is how it works for me. I don't blanket hate people. I like to hate specifically. It's much more rewarding.

BERMAN: You're a better man than I.

Robbie Rist, this has been like a lifetime honor for me.

[09:00:03]

Thank you so much for joining -- I watched the Bradys every day on channel 56 for like six years.

RIST: Wow. Wow.