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New Day

Bezos Soon Blasts to Space. Aired 8:30-9a ET

Aired July 20, 2021 - 08:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[08:30:00]

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: To Wally as well.

KRISTIN FISHER, CNN SPACE AND DEFENSE CORRESPONDENT: Said he wanted his brother with him for this flight. And, you know, back to kind of growing up or spending his summers here in west Texas, Jeff Bezos also had a pretty near death experience back in 2003 when he was scouting land for this west Texas launch site. He was scouting for land in a helicopter, and his helicopter crashed. He walked away all right, but, I mean, that's kind of the blood, sweat and tears that he has put in to this very moment.

And just think about what those four crew members are going through right now. I mean these are not fully trained NASA astronauts. They have just been training for two days. And, you know, these NASA astronauts, they always talk about, when you go up to a launch pad, that rocket's intimidating, right? It feels like a living, breathing dragon with steam coming out.

COOPER: It is -- it is extraordinary that for customers who come in the future, it will only be two days of training.

FISHER: That's it.

COOPER: It's not a lot. I mean, obviously, they're -- this is a fully autonomous vehicle, so there's not a lot they actually do once they're in the capsule.

FISHER: True (ph).

COOPER: But they're, you know, strapped in and try to enjoy the ride.

FISHER: And there's no quarantine, right? I mean they got to spend time with their families. They brought the press dinner. Jeff Bezos brought the press dinner last night.

RACHEL CRANE, CNN BUSINESS INNOVATION AND SPACE CORRESPONDENT: Yes.

FISHER: It's a totally different experience.

CRANE: And it was good. The food was good. I have to say, it was his grandmother's chicken recipe. He brought it and I asked him, actually, because there's a -- you know, the public's always very interested in what astronauts eat right before their launch. And I asked him if this was his last meal.

COOPER: I can't believe he ate, you know, arollos con pollo (ph).

CRANE: Yes, I have a feeling probably that wasn't -- he had a little bit of breakfast this morning and what have you. But it was quite a -- quite a moment.

COOPER: I'm a little curious to see if Jeff Bezos is going to be actually wearing a hat in space.

Adam, as you watch this, I mean, it's 11 minutes. Is there any sort of scientific value? I know some of the folks on Virgin were saying they were doing experiments. Is that legit?

ADAM FRANK, PROFESSOR OF ASTROPHYSICS, UNIVERSITY OF ROCHESTER: Well, you know, it's possible that they can get some experiments being done here, but I think this is really much more than that. And it's much really more than space tourism even. This is, you know, it -- we've been exploring space since the beginning of the space program, but if we really want to have a human presence in space, if we really want to try and have -- become a space faring species, then there has to -- commerce has to be part of this.

So I don't really see the science for this as being as important as an opening to getting human beings to have -- to be able to work and live and make livings. I -- you know, space is really not going to be a place for people unless there is, you know, money to be made, unless there's a living that you can make. So space tourism I think will always be something that's a, you know --

COOPER: And that -- that really is --

FRANK: Go ahead.

COOPER: That real is Bezos' vision for this company, for Blue Origin. That it's not just about bringing, you know, tourists up to space for 11 minutes, it's about creating an infrastructure and - that enables more innovation and other companies to create, you know, things that we can't even imagine in space. I mean he talks about earth one day only being a planet that's used for residential -- for living and also light industry and all heavy industry would be done on other planets or asteroids or somewhere else in space.

FRANK: Yes, I think that's -- you know, that -- that is a possibility in the long-term future. And so what we need to have, there's this thing called new space, which began in sort of the early 2000s, which was the beginning of having commerce in space rather than just, you know, nation states having space programs, having an actual presence of commerce. And there's lots and lots of companies. There were $10 billion of investment in new space companies last year, even with COVID.

So you've got companies like Bigelow Space, which is building inflatable habitats. You've got companies like Ad Astro (ph), which is building entirely new kinds of propulsion systems that don't rely on rockets. So this idea of an infrastructure, you have to have that in order for -- if -- you know, there's a possibility that there are children being born today who will one day work on the moon or who will one day be part of a space mining company getting rare earth metals that you don't want being mined from the bottom of the ocean being taken from asteroids and being brought down to earth.

So that's the real importance of this. I don't think there's much science that can go on in this mission. It's really about the beginning of human beings becoming a truly space faring species, and that's going to require, you know, that's going to require many, many steps like this. And so this is an important first, even with all of the issues about billionaires in space, which, you know, I understand what those issues are.

COOPER: And that's Mark Bezos, Jeff Bezos' brother, who just entered the Blue Origin capsule. So there you see the capsule on the top.

So, Kristen, that capsule, that is where they are going to be sitting, all four of them.

Wally Funk just went into the capsule as well.

Imagine -- I mean, Kristin, imagine, 82 years old, been dreaming about this her whole life, to now have this moment come true.

[08:35:05]

FISHER: I mean it is truly a dream come true for her.

And, you know, the other really special part of it is, she has trained about 3,000 pilots and there you have, sitting next to her, is going to be 18-year-old Oliver Daemen, who he himself is training to be a pilot right now. So it really does kind of come full circle for what who is about -- what is about to become the oldest person to ever fly in space and the youngest person ever to fly in space, all inside the same capsule.

And so they're going to get a few minutes of weightlessness when the booster finally separates from the capsule. But it is going to be a very intense ride for this crew.

I mean, just think about it, they're going to be going up at three times the speed of sound. And when you're in that simulator, you can really feel the moment when the booster separates from the capsule. And then they've got to make that -- that landing with the three parachutes.

So it really is quite a ride, very different from what we saw Virgin Galactic and Richard Branson do with the space plane just nine days ago. But, you know, the thing I'm really thinking about here as I watch this, Anderson, is, you know, the United States just came out of this complete desert of human space flight, almost ten years after the space shuttle fleet retired, where there were no American astronauts launched from U.S. soil. They had to hitch rides on a Russian Soyuz rocket in order to get up to their own International Space Station. And now, in the span of just a little over a year, you have SpaceX launching astronauts to the Space Station. You have Richard Branson launching astronauts into space. And now, in just a few minutes, Jeff Bezos and Blue Origin preparing to do the same.

COOPER: And, Miles O'Brien, Elon Musk with SpaceX is planning to send passengers actually into orbit for a significant amount of time.

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN AEROSPACE ANALYST : Yes, an orbital flight is on the calendar for this fall. SpaceX and Elon Musk taking space to a different level. See, it's quite a bit more energy and more complexity involved in getting a rocket into orbit. This craft will fly on the order of 2,000 miles an hour. To get to orbit, you have to travel at 17,500 miles an hour. And it's -- a lot more energy has to go into that system to get that craft into space.

So that's sort of on a different level and that will be certainly a more expensive ride to space. But that's coming up this fall. So it's a very exciting time after many years of waiting.

COOPER: That's extraordinary, Miles, that in order to get -- actually -- in order to actually get into space, you -- I mean that's far more energy exponentially than is going to be used today. I mean 17,000 miles per hour, that's incredible.

O'BRIEN: Yes. And it is actually exponential, Anderson, that's true.

So, you know, basically you have to get enough speed up so that your free-fall around the planet just keeps going. That's what we call weightlessness. You're really still under the influence of gravity, you just keep falling. And so that's what we're going to see in the fall.

So it's a very exciting, busy time. And as Kristin put it, we've had a long gap. And to see it happen in this manner with private enterprise at the center of it is very exciting because the cost is just -- it's going down by the minute as we watch these flights with reusable craft become more frequent.

COOPER: It's extraordinary to see the four passengers are now in their seats. We were talking about -- you guys have been in the capsule as well. I was in the test capsule yesterday, the -- for training purposes. I was surprised how flat -- like sort of how much on their backs the passengers are going to be.

CRANE: Well, that's actually so they can -- the g forces are distributed across their body so they can, you know, absorb it better because, actually, all -- when -- during reentry, at one point, for just a few seconds, they'll pull 5.5 gs. So that's a lot of g forces their body.

COOPER: It's incredible.

CRANE: And also, I want to point out, we can see them waving through the windows there. Those are the largest windows ever to fly to space.

COOPER: Right.

CRANE: And inside you really get the sense of just how big they are. I mean they take up a third of the capsule. The volume of this capsule, Anderson, also ten times that of Alan Shepherd (ph), when he made his historic suborbital journey.

COOPER: It's -- I actually thought it would bigger. It's actually -- I mean it's pretty -- it's relatively tight in there. I mean there's room for six, but I guess in space terms it's quite large.

CRANE: Oh, it's funny -- well, I've had the opportunity to be in a couple space capsules and this one definitely felt roomier than those.

COOPER: Is that right? OK.

CRANE: But to your point, there's only four people flying on this. Yes, if they had a full crew of six, with they -- which they plan to do in the near future, it might be a little tighter. I don't know if Wally would be able to do those summersaults quite as easily.

[08:40:02]

But Jeff Bezos, yesterday, telling me that he's very excited to learn how this journey is going to impact him. You know, only around 500 people have ever had the luxury of traveling to space. And all of them speak of the overview effect. And that's part of the why to these suborbital missions for Blue Origin and companies like Virgin Galactic. You know, so to democratize space so more people have access to space and can experience this overview effect, seeing the earth from above, seeing it without borders and the fragility of our planet that it makes people more stewards of earth and, you know, want to protect our planet.

COOPER: And the question is, which I think you've raised in the past, is, do they really get an overview effect in three minutes?

CRANE: Right.

COOPER: Usually it's when studies that are done, it's astronauts who have been up there for a long length of time.

CRANE: A long -- right, long duration missions. Frank White, who actually coined the term "overview effect," I spoke to him about this just a couple of days ago. And the research that they've done is on those longer space duration missions, the astronaut speaking of those overview effect. That's how they capture it. we know that duration and time is important. So if these suborbital journeys will accomplish that, quote/unquote overview effect, it's yet to be determined. That's why Bezos saying, he's curious to know how this mission is going to impact him.

COOPER: Yes.

Kristin, it all seems to be going pretty much to time right now, 22 minutes away from launch.

FISHER: It does. And how cool is it that we can actually see them inside the capsule. I mean that's something that we never really get a luxury of being able to do before. But because these windows are so large, we can actually see that.

Now, you know, something else that's really neat when you're out here --

COOPER: So, you know what, let's just listen in because we're hearing mission control a little bit. Let's listen in.

FISHER: Oh, sure.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I should push the button (INAUDIBLE).

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, boy, that's clear (ph).

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Copy, Astronaut Wally.

Astronaut Demo (ph).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To control, this is Astronaut Demo. I have you loud and clear.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Copy. Astronaut Bezos.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE), I read you loud and clear. Thanks for everything, Sarah, we appreciate it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's my honor and my pleasure.

All right, astronauts, we are at t-minus 29 minutes and counting. As we proceed, I'll keep you updated. For now, just sit back and relax.

COOPER: Some of the exchange between the mission control there and the astronauts. It's strange to call them astronauts, but they will be officially certified.

FISHER: Almost.

CRANE: Soon to be, yes.

FISHER: Almost. And, you know, being out here, it's not just about those four soon to be astronauts inside the capsule. I mean this is truly a team of hundreds of people that have moved -- upended their lives to come out here to this very remote stretch of desert in west Texas to try to fulfill Jeff Bezos' founding mission. But also, you know, if you talk to the Blue Origin employees, they really, truly believe that, you know, this is about more than just space tourism. Yes, there are paying customers. Yes, they want to sell tickets to space. But it is also about that grand vision that we've been talking about, leaving a better future for our grandchildren and moving industry like mining, things that are detrimental to the planet, off earth.

COOPER: Right. Blue Origin has a -- their next rocket launch is supposed to be New Glenn, after John Glenn, in honor of him, which is a much larger rocket capable of bringing I think it's like 322 feet tall. It's supposed to bring not only people, but payloads up into space.

CRANE: Yes, that's right. And it will be an orbital rocket. So that's really, you know, where their next big program, New Glenn. Actually, I think -- I think the stat is that New Shepherd can fit inside the faring of New Glenn. So, I mean, this rocket is only about 60 feet tall -- 60 stories tall, rather. New Glenn is a monster in comparison. And that's the rocket that they're hoping is going to get them to the moon with their human landing system and their Blue Moon Project.

So they have really grand goals here at Blue Origin. And New Shepherd is just the first step. That's why we see RSS First Step written outside of that capsule right there, in that grander vision of, you know, colonizing the moon, Mars and beyond with potentially those O'Neil (ph) colonies and what have you.

COOPER: Yes.

FISHER: One more thing Blue Origin is developing is an engine that they want to sell -- that they are going to sell to the United Launch Alliance for the Atlas 5 rocket to send spy satellites, important military satellites into space. And that's important because those rockets have been using -- they've been dependent on the RD-180 engine, which comes from the Russians. And so we've been trying to get rid of our reliance on these rockets for -- or engines for decades now and Blue Origin is trying to do that.

COOPER: They have -- the company has had setbacks. They had hoped to get a contract from NASA for a lunar lander to get astronauts on the moon in 2024. That contract went to SpaceX.

[08:45:01]

They're now contesting that contract with the General Accounting Office. So we'll see what happens with that.

But that was a big blow. They had certainly hoped to be the people to bring astronauts to the moon in 2024. Jeff Bezos has talked about colonizing -- I mean having a permanent presence, human presence, on the moon as one of the things he is interested in this. As you were saying, they've talked about really heavy industry being the purview of what is done in space, light industry and residential use would be what planet earth is for. We're talking, I don't know, hundreds of years from now, depending on who you listen to.

Miles O'Brien, we're about 18 now minutes from launch. And ordinarily with astronauts there would be a lot going on inside the spacecraft itself, inside the capsule, things that they had to do, checks that they had to do. That's not happening in this capsule.

O'BRIEN: No, they're sitting back and taking it all in. There are no switches to throw or checklists to worry about. They did check their communication, as you heard. You want to make sure you can talk to each other and talk to the ground if there's any sort of issue. But this is all about being a passenger.

And it does raise that question, do you categorize them technically as astronauts, given the fact that they really have no active role in controlling the craft, or are they tourists, or are they space flight participants? I think we still have to kind of sort out the lexicon and the definitions as this new era begins. But, for now, they get to make the rules. We'll call them astronauts because they're going to reach that, you know, imaginary line.

And, you know, it's hard to draw a line and figure out where the atmosphere ends and where space begins. Basically the idea, Anderson, is where an airplane could no longer fly with wings. And that's kind of -- it's a gray zone. So that's why, you know, Sir Richard Branson, although they went to lower altitude, they were still seeing the curvature of the earth, the blackness of the sky, and they were floating around. So I guess we can call that space and we can call them astronauts, too.

COOPER: Michio, how far do you think humankind is from a permanent presence on the moon, or some of these sort of grander ideas that Bezos talks about of, you know, using asteroids or other planets as a location for heavy industries?

MICHIO KAKU, PROFESSOR OF THEORETICAL PHYSICS, CITY UNIVERSITY OF NY: Well, you know, we need a vision for space exploration. The first vision was beat the Russians, beat the Russians, beat the Russians. Well, we did. And then the wind went out of the sails and we never went back to the moon as a consequence.

Now we have a new vision coming in. For example, to become a multi- planet species, you know, the dinosaurs, the dinosaurs did not have a space program, and that's why they're not here today to witness this historic launch. The dinosaurs got wiped out because they did not have anyways of going out beyond the planet earth.

So we have a new vision, a multi planet species, also to create the earth as an ecological jewel in outer space, with heavy industry, pollution can to put into space.

COOPER: Yes. Michio, hold -- if you would, just hold that thought for a moment. I do want to just hear what they're saying to the astronauts.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Be prepared to fire those torpedoes in order to do so. Now, hurry up and get your asses back down here so we can give you a huge hug. We love you, and Godspeed, New Shepherd.

COOPER: Virgin, who had been working on this a long time, all gathered here waiting, as we are, for this launch in just under 15 minutes.

So, Kristin, they just made the count down a little bit longer. It's 15 minutes now. Again, I just find it fascinating that the folks in the capsule are really, at this point, passengers.

[08:50:04]

They are just waiting.

FISHER: They can just sit back, relax, enjoy the show. They have --

COOPER: I'm not sure how relaxed they can -- they're about to launch into space at 2,000 -- at more than 2,000 miles an hour.

FISHER: Yes. Hey, I tell you, those seats are very comfortable, though, you know, and they have these iPad-like displays right in front of them. I mean they -- I'm sure they are nervous. How could there not be nerves when you're sitting on top of that much liquid, hydrogen and oxygen. I mean all of this so combustible. I mean it really is. You're riding on top of a bomb into space.

COOPER: Yes. We should point out, I mean, I think of about -- the estimates are about, you know, 1 percent of human, you know, journeys into space have ended in disaster. So it doesn't happen, thankfully, very often, but it, obviously, has happened. They've taken every precaution possible, as you said, as we talked about earlier, they tested this capsule, its ability to separate, get away from the rocket booster itself in three different stages. They did one early test, I believe it was in 2012, one of the earliest tests they did, which was get the capsule separating from the rocket while it was here on the ground.

CRANE: Right, on the pad, and they also did another launch escape test while it was during its ascent and then also while it was in space. So all three major phases of the flight profile. They have tested the launch escape system and it all worked perfectly the company is saying.

But I want to point out, we're still in a brief hold right now, Anderson. We don't know why. But they are strapped in. The hatch is closed. And, you know, you can see -- you see those almost like curtain-like things right there. I want to point out to the audience. Those are solar shades to prevent the capsule from getting hot. Of course there are environmental controls. But because of those huge windows, they have to make sure that it doesn't get too hot outside, also that it doesn't get too humid, that those -- that those windows don't fog up so that the -- the view continues to take --

COOPER: I assume it's climate controlled, though, in the cabin.

CRANE: Yes, it is. But, actually, I don't know if you saw, there was a big -- almost like a pipe going through into the hatch while it was open. That's to continue to pump cold air into there. So, yes, the hatch is -- now that the hatch is closed, it's controlled. There's AC in there. But when that window's open -- or the hatch is open, rather, here in, you know, the west Texas desert, it can get pretty hot, so they have to pump that extra cool air inside to make sure that the passengers and the systems are all comfortable and cool, Anderson.

COOPER: Yes.

CRANE: But, you know, we're really getting down to the wire here. But as I pointed out, we're still in this hold. We don't really know why. But, as I said to you earlier, these launches -- or launches in general don't tend to happen when they're scheduled to happen. This launch today, though, because they're not going to orbit, it's not an instantaneous launch window.

COOPER: Right.

CRANE: So they have wiggle room. They can have these holds. There is, though, a deadline because of the propellant that's on board. They've already -- you know, this rocket here is fully fueled. You've got the liquid oxygen, the liquid hydrogen already in there. And because it's -- because of the cold temperatures, it starts to vaporize. As you can see, some of the vaporization of the propellant happening right there. So if they're held for too long, that will sort of be the book end to today's launch window.

But there's no reason to believe that we're going to come up against that right now, but, you know --

COOPER: And this is powered by, what, a single BE-3 liquid hydrogen, liquid oxygen rocket engine, which, again, which returns to earth before the capsule itself will return to earth.

CRANE: Yes.

FISHER: It returns to earth at just one to two miles per hour after going that fast, all the way up to the edge of space. I mean it's just incredible what that booster is able to do.

But you see that steam coming out there? And you kind of hear the rocket snorting. I mean that's why so many astronauts feel like, you know, when you go up to that rocket, it really feels like it's a living, breathing beast that they're about to go ride on.

COOPER: And you're just on top of it.

FISHER: Yes.

COOPER: It's an extraordinary moment for -- really for anybody who's interested in space exploration and the future of space.

Adam, let me ask the question I asked to Michio earlier, which is, how soon do you think -- I mean what is the time frame? I mean in -- if somebody who's 18 years old, like the 18-year-old Oliver Daemen, who's on board right now, in his lifetime will he see a permanent colony on the moon?

FRANK: I think that's -- absolutely. I mean, you know, as long as things go well, you know, I like to think of the solar system as being the prize we get for, if we can deal with climate change. So assuming, you know, we can manage to deal with that very pressing issue, then, yes, I think, you know, 50 years to have permanent bases on the moon, to maybe having the first shot at a permanent base on Mars.

But really if you want to think about millions of people living in space, really having space industry, I think, you know, a century or two, which is not that long, is a reasonable time to think that you could have millions of people living all over, on Mars.

[08:55:04]

You can hollow out the asteroids and spin them up -- we actually just wrote a paper on this -- and have people living on the inside of the spinning asteroids.

So, you know, you think 200 years ago was, you know, the mid-1800s or so. And, you know, there were trains. That was like your great, great, great, great grandparent. Not that long from now. So really within a few generations, I think it is entirely possible that we could have, you know, a really extensive human presence in space if we can manage to deal with the very pressing issues that we have on earth, though I think they can help each other in many ways.

COOPER: I do just have to follow-up. You -- wait, you're talking about people living inside astronaut -- inside asteroids?

FRANK: Yes, yes, this is a paper my colleagues and I just did where you can hollow -- the idea that you can hollow out an asteroid and then spin it up, right, because there's no -- you know, gravity is hard to come by on an asteroid. They're not that massive. But if you spin it, if you hollow it out and spin it, then the rotation actually -- if you've ever been on one of those rides where, you know, one of those vomitator (ph) rides, where you spin rapidly and you're pressed up against the wall, you could do that for an asteroid and then you could live and walk around on the inside.

So that's an idea that's been around in science fiction for a while. My favorite sign fiction show, "The Expanse" uses that idea quite a bit. And we just sort of worked out some of the details that show how you might be able to make that possible.

And you could have cities of tens of thousands of people. There's a lot of surface area on the inside of those things. And you could end up with a really nice radiation protected space station in that way.

COOPER: You know, it's interesting, I mean we hear ideas like this and it seems so fantastical. And yet when, you know, the Wright Brothers flew for the short amount of time that they did, no one could have imagined that, you know, air travel would be accessible to, you know, to -- you know, that the cost would be now not prohibitive.

FRANK: I have a super computer in my pocket that gives me access to all human knowledge ever created. So, yes, there's, you know, 200 years is not a very long time in terms of what might be possible if we can deal with climate change and the other pressing issues here on earth.

COOPER: You know, I mean it's funny that you mentioned the super computer in your pocket, which we all have, you know, on an iPhone or whatever the device, android device.

When you look at some of the technology used, you know, in the Voyager spacecraft, I mean it's being -- Voyager, which is still out there in -- I think in inter stellar space, or at least one of them is, it's using, I think, like something that's -- the power that's -- the same power that's used for like to keep your light on in your refrigerator. I mean it's nothing compared to -- it's elementary compared to the power we all have, you know, in our pockets right now.

FRANK: Yes, it's a testimony to human genius, which also -- one thing that we have to remember, we keep talking about Jeff Bezos or Elon Musk. But, you know, the -- what is really happening here is a triumph of American science and engineers. And, you know, we have a huge problem in this country with science denial. And people really need to recognize that, you know, while Bezos and Musk are, you know, are paying for it and spearheading the effort, these incredible technological leaps come because of the vibrant scientific and engineering enterprise we have in the United States that needs to be supported and protected. But this is -- this is really a triumph of American science and we should not forget that when we're watching what happens today.

COOPER: We -- we're anticipating the launch to be at 8:00, which would be two minutes from now. Now we're being told 13 minutes to launch. So it seems to be underway.

You know, Adam, I've heard Bezos, in the past, talk about how, you know, he built Amazon. There was infrastructure that already existed. There was FedEx. There was the Postal Service. There was a, you know, a payment -- there was PayPal, there were payment systems to enable him to do the extraordinary business that he's created and employs, you know, half a million people around the world. And he was saying that for space, their -- you know, it's not possible for some really smart kids in a dorm room to come up with something for space right now that they can actually make happen. The costs are too prohibitive. And that that's why that infrastructure for space is so important.

FRANK: Yes, and what you can imagine happening is this infrastructure will be built by, you know, governments sort of, you know, doing the initial capital investment to maybe get a moon base, and then private enterprise, commerce sort of, you know, serving as the fuel depots, you know, providing the fuel depots and the satellite support. And this way you can bootstrap your way to the moon, and then to Mars, and then maybe even to the outer planets. So you have to have that communications, refueling, manufacturing. You need to be able to do manufacturing in space.

[09:00:01]

You don't want to drag everything out of the gravity well. It's too expensive.

So that is really why -- yes, I don't like to think about privatization. I like to think about commerce.