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Negative Effects of Not Getting Vaccinated against COVID-19 for Society Examined; Governors Across U.S. Urging Citizens to Get Vaccinated; Analysts Review Possible Necessity of Vaccine Mandates to Prompt Unvaccinated to Get COVID-19 Vaccine; Florida Governor: I'll Withhold Pay of School Officials Who Mandate Masks. Aired 8-8:30a ET

Aired August 10, 2021 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:00:00]

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Scientists say that the more transmission there is, the higher the probability that mutations could make future variants even more dangerous.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: Someone's decision not to get vaccinated will impact the economy. It will force workplaces to delay re- openings, close, or cut back if more people aren't spending, more workers home sick. It impacts doctors, nurses, and hospital workers who are already burnt out and traumatized from a year-and-a-half of suffering as many hospitals are once again overrun.

It keeps those who aren't suffering from COVID from getting other kinds of medical care, for cancer, as one man we will talk to this hour will tell us. It affects the quality of the care that doctors and nurses can provide for injuries, surgical complications, and, yes, for COVID.

BERMAN: It effects the reopening of schools, as more children will have to wear masks in the classroom. And it affects the return of everyday life. Simply put, it impacts fun, from concerts to games. We just saw New Orleans cancel the Jazz Fest.

KEILAR: Some American will justify their decision not to get vaccinated as freedom. And sure, they are free. They are free to get infected, free to spread the virus, free to add to the tally of more than 600,000 American lives lost, countless livelihoods lost. Freedom, some will say, as they refused to get vaccinated and also refused to wear a mask, enabled by politicians like the governor of South Carolina.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. HENRY MCMASTER, (R) SOUTH CAROLINA: And there is no need to require, for the government to require masks in schools at this time. There is just no need for it. If you listen to some of the national press and even some of the national experts, who I believe are exaggerating, engaging in hyperbole and unnecessarily alarming people, you may think otherwise.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: He says exaggerating, but a doctor from the tri-county area in his own state says he is now in a code red emergency because of the influx of patients in hospitals there. A total of 98 percent of the U.S. population currently living in counties considered to have high or substantial COVID transmission, that's according to the CDC, that's 325 million people. Hospitalizations in the United States are nearly 70,000. That is up more than 22 percent by one week.

KEILAR: ICU beds are running out in some states. There are only eight, eight left in the entire state of Arkansas. COVID deaths are rising, again, with more than 500 Americans dying on average each day. Nearly 1,600 children are currently hospitalized with the virus. That is up 146 percent since last month.

BERMAN: Which brings us back to the original point, which is that more and more vaccinated Americans are saying enough is enough, because some, some of the unvaccinated are relying on lies, conspiracies, and misinformation to make their decisions, including this one. An optical business owner says he can't convince all of his employees to get vaccinated. Listen to what he told "The New York Times," quote, "One employee said she was concerned because she thought a vaccine had caused the characters in the film "I am Legend" to turn into zombies."

People opposed to vaccines have circulated that claim about the movie's plot widely on social media. In response, the writer of that film responded, quote, "Oh, my God, it's a movie. I made that up. It's not real." When vaccinated Americans have to debate the plot of a Will Smith movie, the anger and frustration is understandable.

Let's go to CNN's Martin Savidge for more on the growing tension between those who have had the shot and those, Martin, who still refuse to.

MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, John. There is no debate that many of the states that have the lowest vaccination rate are located right here in the south. And when you talk to many people who are unvaccinated, they will give you all kinds of reasons. But the end result, as you just pointed out, is the same. Medical systems are being overwhelmed with sick, unvaccinated patients, and it is a reaching breaking point.

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

SAVIDGE: For the nearly 167 million Americans who are fully vaccinated, patience is wearing thin towards those who are still holding out on receiving their shot.

GOV. ANDY BESHEAR, (D) KENTUCKY: This is America and the world against COVID, which is trying to kill us. You are either with us fighting this virus, or you're helping the virus.

SAVIDGE: As new cases rise, health care workers are growing frustrating.

DONNA COCHRANE, CHIEF NURSING OFFICER, LIBERTY REGIONAL MEDICAL CENTER: The vaccine is absolutely something that you can all do to help. We are tired. We are at wits end. The staff is overwhelmed.

SAVIDGE: Louisiana is facing a dangerous surge, forcing the governor to ask the unvaccinated this question.

GOV. JOHN BEL EDWARDS, (D) LOUISIANA: Did you hear a word that was said up here by these healthcare professionals as what is happening in Louisiana? Do you give a damn?

[08:05:05]

SAVIDGE: At the White House, President Biden has been calling on Republican leaders like Texas Governor Gregg Abbott and Florida Governor Ron DeSantis who are slowing vaccination and safety protocols like mask mandates.

JOE BIDEN, (D) PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: If you're not going to help, at least get out of the way of the people who are trying to do the right thing.

SAVIDGE: Meantime, some GOP governors have words of their own to those refusing to get the shot.

GOV. KAY IVEY, (R) ALABAMA: Folks are supposed to have common sense. But it's time to start blaming the unvaccinated folks, not the regular folks. It is the unvaccinated folks that are letting us down.

GOV. LARRY HOGAN, (R) MARYLAND: It may be only a matter of time until you do get COVID-19. So please, just get the damn vaccine.

SAVIDGE: This as health experts fear what is to come this upcoming school year with some state leaders banning masks in the classrooms, even considering there is no coronavirus vaccine authorized for the children under the age of 12.

DR. JONATHAN REINER, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: We need to link arms. We need to put the nonsense of the politics away, and we need to protect our kids as best as possible.

SAVIDGE: Mississippi is facing a dangerous surge with one of the lowest vaccination rates in the United States. But with college football just weeks away, Ole Miss coach Lane Kiffin announced his players, staff, and coaches are all now fully vaccinated. Kiffin says the threat of a forfeit encouraged many of his team to get the shot?

LANE KIFFIN, HEAD FOOTBALL COACH, UNIVERSITY OF MISSISSIPPI: I think it is irresponsible. So I know I'm going to be criticized for that, but I think it is.

SAVIDGE: Meantime, the NFL also has a similar rule, saying any COVID- 19 outbreak will lead to a forfeit and loss that cannot be rescheduled during the regular season. Last month, Washington football team coach Ron Rivera who recently went through chemotherapy for cancer, said this about his team's low vaccination rate.

RON RIVERA, HEAD COACH, WASHINGTON FOOTBALL TEAM: I am beyond frustrated. And part of it is the reason I walked in with a mask on is I am immunodeficient. OK, so with this new variant, who knows?

SAVIDGE: The league's tough stand seems to be working. According to the NFL, at least 87 percent of players have at least one dose with 10 teams over 90 percent.

RIVERA: We are headed in the right direction. We still have several guys that aren't, and we'll see. We will see what happens.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

SAVIDGE (on camera): Getting back to the subject of schools, there are many school districts here in Georgia that have already reopened, including here in the Atlanta area. And after one week, many of those districts are seeing hundreds of cases of either students and staff that are testing positive for coronavirus or are in quarantine as the result of somebody who did. Is that going to lead to a balloon, say, in the Atlanta area of the dangerous Delta variant? Experts say it is too early to tell, but that is definitely the fear. John?

BERMAN: Let's hope not, but right now, that is what we have to go on, is hope. Martin Savidge, thanks very much.

KEILAR: There are growing calls to turn up the pressure on the unvaccinated who are putting others at risk, including children who are not eligible yet for vaccines.

Let us talk about this now. We have Professor Arthur Caplan with us. He is the director of medical ethics at NYU's Grossman School of Medicine, and we have CNN columnist Jill Filipovic. They both, actually, have written opinion pieces about cracking down on unvaccinated people. To you, first, Professor. Look, it's tricky, this idea of mandating vaccinations. But what can be done to essentially mandate it, but maybe just to say to people, look, you can't do certain things if you're not going to be safe?

ARTHUR CAPLAN, DIRECTOR, MEDICAL ETHICS, NYU GROSSMAN SCHOOL OF MEDICINE: Thanks for having me, Brianna. Look, a moral equation has to shift. Stop protecting the unvaccinated. They are selfish. They are greedy. They are not doing the right thing by their neighbors. And I don't think we are going to be able to persuade if you look at the data in the south that you just reported. There are outbreaks following the unvaccinated strategy all over the place with hospitals just about to tip over.

So it is time to go toward mandates. It has been time, in my view, to have mandates for a while now. And what we've got to do is say this -- first, if you are healthcare worker in a nursing home setting or a teacher, you must vaccinate. It is the only way to protect the weak and the vulnerable and children.

Secondly, no jab, no job. Private employers should say today you can't come to work, you can't make the workplace dangerous. You have got to make sure to look out for your fellow workers. We are going to insist on vaccinations. So I would like to see more employer mandates. And that's started, and that's good, and I think it should expand rapidly. Getting the military vaccinated, as Biden just announced, very good thing, should've been done already. We had many outbreaks there, so we want to get that under control.

[08:10:05]

And I'm also going to say there is some liability. If I can prove that you got my child sick and put them in the hospital or worse, if they died, then I should be suing you for acting irresponsibly. That is really a matter of blame.

BERMAN: So Jill, for months I think there was a decision made by federal and state officials that it wasn't useful to name call the unvaccinated, or it wasn't useful to be overly critical of their decision not to be vaccinated, to use words that Professor Kaplan just did, like "greedy" and "selfish," because the argument went that that is not going to help them get the shot at the end of the day. That was the argument.

The question is, is that right? Or did that enable and empower the unvaccinated to really dictate a lot of the policy?

JILL FILIPOVIC, CNN COLUMNIST, LAWYER: I think that was right at the beginning when you had a much larger share of folks who wanted to get the vaccine or wanted more information about the vaccine but weren't able to access it. That pool of people, they certainly still exist, but they're now a pretty tiny proportion of the unvaccinated. So I do not think the professor is right, that what we have to do are just offer carrots but also now have some sticks.

I'm, for example, in France at the moment, and in order to eat at a restaurant I have to show my vaccination card. In order to go inside, do any kind of inessential, fun activity, I need to prove that I'm vaccinated so that I don't put the public's health at risk. And to me, that is quite a sensible solution.

I do think it is important that we maximize people's fundamental right to bodily autonomy. I don't think anyone should be forced to have a substance injected into their body. But nobody has a constitutional right to go to a Yankees game, right, or to eat inside of a restaurant. And so drawing lines around those spaces, those inessential but really pleasurable experiences I think could go a long way to protecting the vaccinated and still getting vaccinated their right to refuse these kinds of interventions.

KEILAR: Art, on the ethics question of this, you've raised a point, which is some people ask is it ethical to have a vaccine mandate, let's say, for an employer? You say it may be unethical for them not to have a mandate.

CAPLAN: That's right. You want to have a workplace that is safe. You want to know that when you go to work that your boss did everything possible to make that environment safe. That is not just for COVID, Brianna. That has been true for dozens and dozens of years as we've fought for workplace safety.

And I agree with Jill. If you go to a concert, if you go to a restaurant, you want to be sure that that is safe as possible, as well. So let's be clear. The moral obligation is safety. The moral obligation is to protect the weak and the vulnerable. First moral principle isn't I have my freedom. The first moral principle is don't kill people, don't put them in the hospital. That is the first moral principle. Your employer, your restaurant, your sports event, your theater, that is what they should be paying attention to.

BERMAN: Jill, we are talking about the anger of the vaccinated here. In your mind, what should the vaccinated be angry about this morning?

FILIPOVIC: Well, I think it is perfectly fair to be angry that your fellow citizens haven't done their part to fight a virus that is affecting all of us, and that as the professor says, is the most dangerous for the most vulnerable in our society and particularly the old. But now people with compromised immune systems, people that are recovering from organ transplants, cancer, those are the people that are really, really highly at risk.

And with the Delta variant, we are seeing it now hitting a larger number of children, which for parents is terrifying because you can't vaccinate kids under 12.

So while I don't know that it is useful to be name-calling, I also don't think it is super useful to be shaming vaccinated for what I think is pretty legitimate frustration when we feel like we've done our part. I'm a healthy 38-year-old. My chances of dying of COVID are of very, very low. I got vaccinated not just to protect myself but to protect my elderly neighbors and the other folks in my community.

And it does feel very frustrating, and I think legitimate on behalf of the vaccinated to see the degree to which so many other folks in our communities have just said we don't care. We don't care if we get our neighbors sick. I'll be fine. That is a level of selfishness that I think should make us angry.

BERMAN: Jill, Professor, thank you both very much for being with us today.

CAPLAN: Thank you.

FILIPOVIC: Thank you.

BERMAN: Up next, Florida Governor Ron DeSantis threatening the paychecks of school officials who have exercised their freedom to make decisions for the health of their students.

We're going to talk to the one who plans to defy the governor anyway.

KEILAR: We're also going to speak with a cancer patient now is blocked from a much-needed hospital bed as the unvaccinated fuel a surge in COVID patients.

And also, some NFL players still refusing the vaccines. How could that affect your favorite team this season?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BERMAN: Welcome back to a CNN special report.

Some local school boards in Florida want the freedom to make health decisions for their schools. But Florida Governor Ron DeSantis is exercising his power to limit their liberty. No local control says the Republican governor.

[08:20:02]

You will be punished if you decide students and faculty must wear masks, putting out a statement that said, quote, the state board of education could move to withhold the salary of the district superintendent or school board members as he narrowly tailored needs to address the decision-makers that led to the violation of the law.

If you have mask requirements, you could have your salary withheld.

Joining us now, Tina Certain. She's a member of the Alachua County Public School Board, one of the districts that has been voted to keep mask requirements in place, despite the governor's threats.

Thank you so much for being with us this morning. Why have you decided that students and faculty should wear masks?

TINA CERTAIN, BOARD MEMBER, ALACHUA COUNTY PUBLIC SCHOOLS: Thank you for having me this morning, John.

Well, last week, on August 3rd, we -- at the advice of our medical advisor community, medical doctors and public health authorities, in our local community -- we were advised to start school with all the mitigation factors that we could employ. And masking was one of them.

And so, we are following the advice of the local officials who are in touch with the conditions of the spread of COVID-19 in our community. That is a decision that we went with the last week, was to start school with the mask mandate and to reevaluate it based on current conditions from August 17th.

So, we thought it was the best decision based on medical information, local medical information.

BERMAN: What about the threats that you just heard me read from Governor DeSantis' office?

CERTAIN: Well, I do not know how legal it is. But our decision was made before the threat came down. I still stand by the vote that I took on August 3rd, because as an elected official, I have the responsibility of providing a safe, learning and work environment for our students and staff. Having face coverings and encouraging those eligible to be vaccinated. It is the best way for our school district to operate at this particular time.

BERMAN: You keep saying our school district, the best way for our school district to operate. One of the things that we often hear from some officeholders -- Republicans particularly -- is that there should be local control. You should be able to make your own decisions at the local level of what is right for you.

Does that seem to be what Governor DeSantis is allowing here?

CERTAIN: You know, I do think Governor DeSantis is infringing upon the local authority that is granted to local school board members, and the Florida Constitution. And I think that it is ironic. Normally it is said by them that they want to be able to make decisions closer to the people that are impacted. In this case, it's like there's been an about-face and an about-face turn on that.

BERMAN: I will say this, I have a couple of 14 year old boys finished eight grade, heading into ninth grade. They're both vaccinated now, thankfully. But they did not like wearing masks, right? I mean, you know how much kids hate wearing masks .

CERTAIN: Well, we've heard some complaints about it. But we had good compliance last school year and we are hoping for the same. I think the students understand this is a minor inconvenience for us to move forward, as well as the adults on our campus because we -- our superintended elected to have and enact a mask mandate for all staff, adults and visitors on our campus, until September 17th, because of the spread -- the uptick in spread.

And so, she had the authority to make that decision. And it came to the board for us to decide, since we are not in a state of emergency, the policy of our students.

And it is an inconvenience. But at this point we've been doing them asking for about 15, 16 months. I think it is a small factor, a small inconvenience for us to try to flatten the curve of this virus that's been so deadly in the nation, as well as in our state, and as well as in our local community. So --

BERMAN: Tina Certain, we appreciate you being with us this morning. Thanks very much.

CERTAIN: Thank you for having me.

Up next, we're going to hear from cancer patient whose surgery is delayed because of the huge rise in COVID hospitalizations fueled by the unvaccinated. Other vaccines are starving for vaccines, as many Americans refused to get it.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:28:35]

BERMAN: Welcome back to the CNN special report.

The surge in coronavirus has hospitals running out of beds for patients, fueling more anger of the vaccinated. Eleven month year old Eva got COVID but had to be flown to a hospital in Texas. 150 miles away because there were no beds left in the pediatric hospitals where she lived. That has baby Eva's mother seeing red.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It hurts, like I wouldn't want this pain on any other mother. Like to be witnessing their kids at having seizures, tubes down their throat, being hospitalized. It gets me kind of mad that like everything is taking COVID as a joke and it's not a joke, like it's very, very serious. Our babies are in danger. Everybody is in danger.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: And now to another devastating impact on these surging COVID cases that are overwhelming hospitals.

My next guest is a law professor who was recently diagnosed with stage three melanoma, and he was scheduled on August 4th to remove cancerous lymph nodes. But that was pushed back to the hospital would not have a recovery bad for him because of the surge in COVID patients.

And Michael Keegan is with us now to talk about this.

Michael, this is -- I mean, this is serious. This surgery is critical for you. Can you tell us just how important and needed this is?

MICHAEL KAGAN, CANCER SURGERY POSTPONED BECAUSE OF COVID SURGE: Well, I have cancerous lymph nodes right here in my neck. I can feel them with my fingers.