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U.S. to Recommend Booster Shots 8 Months after Vaccination; Biden Vows U.S. Will Evacuate Thousands, Warning Taliban. Aired 6- 6:30a ET

Aired August 17, 2021 - 06:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning to our viewers in the United States and all around the world. It is Tuesday, August 17. I'm John Berman with Brianna Keilar.

[05:59:24]

We begin with breaking news. A huge development overnight in the battle against COVID. U.S. health officials are expected to recommend COVID booster shots for most Americans. That's eight months after getting their second vaccine dose.

It was only last week that third shots were recommended for people with weakened immune systems. This is a huge expansion of that, that could begin rolling out next month.

The timing is worthy of note, the news coming out in the midst of the chaos in Afghanistan. Nevertheless, healthcare workers and nursing home residents are expected to be the first to receive their booster shots, followed by seniors who were at the front of the line when vaccinations first became available.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: There is some newly-released data from Israel, and it shows a drop in protection over time as the U.S. fights at this point here its own surge of the Delta variant of COVID. The administration's plan could be announced this week, though it would depend on the FDA and the CDC authorizing those additional shots. So still some steps to go here.

Let's get the latest now from Dr. Chris Pernell. She's a public health physician and a fellow at the American College of Preventive Medicine.

You know, we were expecting this. We thought it would come in September. We thought it would come next month. What do you make of this announcement?

DR. CHRIS T. PERNELL, FELLOW, AMERICAN COLLEGE OF PREVENTIVE MEDICINE: I think the administration is trying to get ahead of public perception and to influence human behavior in the most positive direction possible. I'm not surprised that we're increasingly talking about more of the population needing boosters, but I do want a level set.

And I want a level set that there is a difference between waning antibody response and your overall immune response. That waning antibody response really talks about how whether or not vaccinated people have symptomatic infections and go on to develop severe disease.

But the unvaccinated are totally unprotected. So we have to balance those two choices and options of where priorities should be placed.

VAUSE: An element of what you're saying seems to be the suggestion, Dr. Pernell, this is not a matter of the vaccines as they are, the two doses not working. It's a suggestion by health officials, not right now the CDC, but health officials in general that a third dose can make it work even better.

PERNELL: Definitely. So John, if we think about how vaccines are designed to work, vaccines prevent severe disease and hospitalization. They do that through a robust antibody response. You develop memory B cells. You develop T cells. Basically, I'm telling you that the immune system is complex.

But what we're seeing in real-world data and data available by the pharmaceutical companies is that, through time, that antibody response wanes so bad if you're vaccinated and you get exposed to the virus, you could have a symptomatic infection. And you may not have the same level of protection against severe disease, as you had at the first two doses.

KEILAR: You know, I wonder clearly. And the biggest problem now isn't people who have had two doses getting another dose. It's the people who haven't even gotten one dose at this point in time.

So, you know, does this protect -- because we have seen rare breakthrough cases in people who have COVID. How does this protect or -- in people who are vaccinated, how does this protect people who are vaccinated? How does it protect people who are unvaccinated?

PERNELL: Brianna, the only way to protect people who are unvaccinated is to get them vaccinated. The Delta variant that we're dealing with is because of unvaccinated reservoirs, if I could use that word intentionally, meaning that when we have a significant proportion of the population, whether that's within our country or whether that's globally, the virus runs amuck. It has free course to mutate and to try to get ahead of our interventions and immune system.

So I think our first priority still has to be getting those Americans and getting vaccines available more broadly across the globe so that we can arrest the development of further concerning variants like Delta.

BERMAN: And of course, this is going to be controversial around the world, Dr. Pernell. The WHO, among others, doesn't want to talk about booster shots for developed countries like the United States until more people in more countries get their first dose.

PERNELL: Yes, there isn't a right or wrong answer here. I think it's a weighing of priorities, and it's a full understanding of what the choices are.

This isn't a simple choice. This is what battle do you want to fight and what battle do you fight first? Do you fight the battle to get the unvaccinated vaccinated so that you can stop the genesis of these dangerous and really concerning variants, or do you look at those who are already vaccinated and say, How do I protect them the longest against severe disease?

I think we've got to be really smart about weighing those two potential cases. I'm always going to be concerned with the vaccine equity. I'm going to be concerned with that within our borders and going to be concerned with that globally, because viruses don't respect your distinctions.

KEILAR: Yes, and they come in from other countries, as well. The White House very clear that they want to fight this on both fronts, as we're seeing them do here.

Dr. Pernell, thank you so much for being with us this morning.

PERNELL: Thank you.

BERMAN: All right. This morning there's an urgent situation unfolding in Afghanistan. President Biden vowed, quote, "devastating force" against the Taliban if fighters interrupt the evacuations of Americans and its Afghan allies.

More U.S. troops arrived overnight at the airport in Kabul, the scene of desperation over a chaotic 24 hours. This extraordinary image has emerged that appears to show hundreds of Afghans packed into a U.S. military cargo plane in a desperate attempt to flee Kabul after the fall of the capital to the Taliban.

The situation is said to be much calmer this morning after U.S. forces shot and killed two men who opened fire at the airport during the rush of people to escape.

KEILAR: Now, while addressing this rapid fall of the Afghan government for the first time, the president admitted the collapse unfolded more quickly than he anticipated, but he stood firmly behind his decision to totally withdraw U.S. troops from Afghanistan.

He did promise to help Afghan allies escape, but he left many unanswered questions about how the U.S. can actually achieve that goal. Former president George W. Bush, who entered the U.S. into the war almost 20 years ago, said he and former first lady Laura Bush feel deep sadness over the events unfolding in Afghanistan.

Let's go live now to CNN's Clarissa Ward. She is in Kabul with more. And Clarissa, it was telling in that statement from the former president. He starts by saying that the U.S. government has the legal authority to cut the red tape for Afghan refugees and that allies and NGOs are ready to help.

I wonder if you see any signs that the U.S. government is making efforts to evacuate Afghan allies besides those who are already at the airport.

CLARISSA WARD, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: We're hearing from the U.S. that they are desperately trying to expedite those evacuations and to get Afghans out who have worked with the U.S. military and various other organizations.

I have to tell you, Brianna, my phone is ringing off the hook. I am getting calls nonstop from ordinary Afghans who are desperately afraid, who are trying their best to get out of the country, to get their paperwork sorted out, who want answers, who want clarity, who have worked for nongovernmental organizations.

They say they can't even get people to answer the phone. And they're so petrified, they're so utterly, utterly petrified.

I want to show you a little clip from a woman we spoke to earlier this morning. She worked for a various number of international organizations, including some U.S. organizations. She is so afraid now for her life that she is in hiding. She didn't want to show her face. But take a listen to what she had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It is not easy for a person who worked a lot with international organization having more than ten years' experience of working with international, and not -- no one of them help me. Just sending emails to different organizations that I worked with you, but now, no response.

WARD: Are you angry?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, I'm not angry, but as a person that -- who worked with them, now I need their supports. It is not fair.

WARD: You look very emotional, as well.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, because I'm thinking about my future, my daughters, what will happen to them if they kill me. Two daughters with no -- without mother.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WARD: I just can't even begin to explain the heartache, as an American journalist, of sitting and looking that woman in the eye as tears are pouring down her face. She was saying, I dreamt of a better future for my daughters, and that has been taken away from me in one moment. She's desperately pleading for help, like so many others who are desperately afraid in this uncertain moment.

BERMAN: Clarissa, we see you on the streets again today. I should note, it is so insightful for us as Americans to be able to see you out there.

The scenes behind you are like mundane almost, people loading water onto a truck, walking their bicycles along the street. What does it feel like there today?

WARD: So the Taliban told all people who work for the government that they can go back to their jobs today. We saw policemen directing traffic on the streets. We're in a busy market.

You know, not all the stores are open, but certainly, a good amount of them.

And if you -- if you come with me, Will Bonnet (ph), my cameraman who I'm working with here, is just going to take us. There's one shop that's doing pretty good business at the moment, which is not entirely surprising.

This shop here, which is selling burkas. Burkas are all consuming, all covering attire that are very common in Afghanistan, or particularly common under the Taliban and are enjoying now something of a renaissance, because as the Taliban have come back into town, more and more women are afraid to walk down the street even wearing very conservative attire like I am wearing now.

[06:10:05]

So we actually talked to the shopkeeper a little while ago, and he told us that he's been selling a lot more burkas, because people are frightened. They're coming out. They're buying them for their wives, their daughters, whoever it may be, because they feel that, from now on, this is the way for women to be safe on the streets.

And this is how it starts, OK? Because we hear from the Taliban again and again, women's rights will be protected. Women will be allowed to be educated. Women will be allowed to go to work.

But when you have women so afraid that they're going out to buy burkas because they're worried to be seen on the streets, even dressed very conservatively as I am, you start to understand how the space for women becomes smaller and smaller, how their rights become marginalized, and how they ultimately become disenfranchised.

KEILAR: Are you seeing anything different with that personally? I mean, it's been a change day-to-day, Clarissa, talking to you on Sunday versus how you were dressed appropriately for the situation on Monday, but being told that you needed to move aside, because you were a woman near the palace. What has the experience been like for you in the last 24 hours?

WARD: For the most part, I want to be clear. The Taliban have been polite to us, and they have been welcoming. They have told us we can continue with our work.

While they made clear in an interview I did with them yesterday, that they believe a woman's face should be covered and that her hands should be covered, nobody has asked me to cover my face or cover my hands.

And part of the reason I'm dressed as conservatively as I am, honestly, is out of an abundance of caution. I want to be as low profile, as it is possible for us to be with a television camera. And I don't want to draw too much attention to myself. I don't want to become the story.

The story is what's going around me. The story is what Afghan people are feeling in this desperately frightening uncertain moment. BERMAN: Of course, I can't help but notice we haven't seen a single

woman in camera frame anywhere near you. Are they out and about? And what about the Taliban themselves? Are they out and about? Are they within eye shot of you?

WARD: The Taliban are patrolling this market regularly. I saw one about five minutes ago. I haven't seen another fighter since, but the shopkeeper behind me who runs the burka store said that they do come through here.

I have to say that I cannot see -- I can see one woman in the distance in a burka. But other than that, I cannot see a single woman on the streets, and it's just part of reality. You're going to see far fewer women on the streets, because women are frightened.

And they can't trust the guarantees or the assurances that they've been given by the Taliban, because they know differently from history. They know differently from rural areas where the Taliban is in control.

And so this is really a pivotal moment for the Taliban to -- to step up and show that they're serious about this, and that there will be full women's rights accorded to them.

KEILAR: How much of this is just waiting out the departure of the U.S. from the airport, whether it's for your own safety, whether it is for the people who are holed up, afraid of the Taliban. We know the Taliban, Clarissa, said -- warning fighters not to go into homes, not to, for instance, take vehicles. But Taliban leadership also saying that things will be sorted out later, meaning when the U.S. leaves.

WARD: Yes, I think that it's important to understand for our viewers that the Taliban really wants to get this right. I interviewed the commander yesterday, who said we absolutely want to have international relations with every country in the world. We cannot afford to be an international pariah again, as we were in the late '90s and early 2000s.

And so they're very keen to show themselves as a viable political force, as more pragmatic, more mature, more diplomatic. They are now, ironically, with regards to this whole evacuation, they're sort of providing the first perimeter to the airport, trying to push people back to stop those chaotic scenes that we've been seeing over the last couple of days.

Not out of the goodness of their heart. but because they want the Americans to leave, and they want them to leave as soon as possible.

And I think -- I mean, I may be wrong. This is speculation. I think they will be very disappointed in this moment until the Americans leave. Then what happens is anybody's guess.

As I spoke to so many people yesterday, I heard the same answer to this question again and again. We don't know what's going to happen in five minutes' time, let alone what's going to happen next week. BERMAN: President Biden gave a speech yesterday directed at the

American people largely. I'm wondering, Clarissa, if you've heard anything from the people on the streets there. Do they even know what happened?

[06:15:08]

WARD: Not so much from people on the streets, but I have been having conversations throughout the morning, particularly with people who are trying to leave the country.

I think for them, you know, President Biden's speech was not reassuring. I think a lot of people felt disappointed by it. They felt that they were hollow words. They don't any longer really trust or believe in the U.S.'s commitment to the people of Afghanistan.

Don't forget, it was one week ago the U.S. was saying we're not shutting the embassy. It's still open. The message is enduring partnership.

Fast forward five or six days, and suddenly everyone's being evacuated.

Now, people on the ground understand that President Biden's primary duty is to the American people and to ensuring their security, and I don't think anybody would begrudge that. But there is a sense that they've simply been cast aside and abandoned, and there's a huge amount of heartache and a huge amount of resentment about that.

KEILAR: You know, one of the things, of course, they're worried about as the U.S. leaves are these encounters that they may be having with the Taliban.

And you know, just going back to the Taliban leadership, saying that you -- to its fighters, you're shouldn't be going door to door. There have been reports that that actually has been happening, though, Clarissa, whether it's female journalists or it's special forces, Afghan special forces who were involved in the fight with Americans. Can you tell us anything about that?

WARD: So I've been talking to some people this morning who say that they have heard reports of people going house to house and doing searches, but they're not sure that it's the Taliban. They think it might be criminal elements, as well, because don't forget there's always going to be a lot of unsavory people who will seize on a moment of crisis, on a moment of power vacuum and try to exploit the situation.

I have not been able to confirm any reports of the Taliban actively searching people's homes. I do know that they are outside certain people's homes, well-known figures, people associated with the government. Whether that is tantamount to some form of house arrest, I'm not entirely sure. But I haven't yet heard anything in terms of sort of substantive reprisals or retaliations or raids or arrests or anything of that nature. BERMAN: Clarissa, you said something before, which is the first I

heard of it, which was the Taliban, in a way, guarding the outer perimeter or patrolling the outer perimeter of the airport itself.

We've obviously seen the scenes from inside the airport, hundreds, if not thousands of people frantic to get out of the country. But that only could be a small fraction of the people who want to leave.

If you wanted to get to the airport right now, if you were an American, by the way, trapped in Kabul, if you were an Afghan ally of the U.S. trapped there, could you get to the airport if you wanted to right now?

WARD: That's a really good question, and it's really tough to answer. I would guess, yes, you could get to the airport. It would take a long time. There is an insane amount of traffic. The roads are clogged. The checkpoints are hostile. It's very tense.

I think that a lot of people would say it wouldn't be recommended for you to go to the airport, obviously, unless you have concrete proof that you are entitled to an imminent military evacuation.

But for a journalist like myself, to be honest, I'm really trying to avoid the airport at the moment, because that seems to me to be one of the most dangerous and tense spots.

KEILAR: Well, and so that -- that -- to that point, where you are, it seems to be relatively normal, but does it -- does it feel that way or do you feel some of the tension in the area where you are? It seems like, you know, daily goings on are happening.

WARD: I think there's two components to this. For me as a journalist, honestly, two weeks ago I could not have stood in this market in Kabul for an hour as a westerner with my cameraman and producer. Impossible. You could not do it because of the security threats, because of the different, you know, criminal and terrorist groups who are operating.

You could see some Taliban fighters just walked right past us there. But they don't pay us any attention. Right? They're allowing us to do our work.

In some ways, in a very strange and surreal way, there is more security right now on the streets of Kabul. In terms of that basic level of -- of criminality or terrorist attacks, things of that nature.

But in terms of, you know, what people are feeling, ordinary Afghans, again, as I said before, it's the story that's happening not on the streets. They're petrified. You know, maybe they can go out and buy some milk. That's not the issue. The issue is what happens to their future? The issue is what kind of reprisals or retributions could they face? The issue is what possible opportunities might they have?

[06:20:09]

The issue is how quickly does this kind of happy honeymoon period end? And at what point do we see the Taliban start to implement a much more draconian rule, the likes of which we're familiar with in the late 1990s?

And I will say, we have a few women passing us now. I did mention before that that is pretty uncommon at the moment. They did, though, lift their veils to cover their faces.

So yes, the Taliban is providing on the streets what I would call basic law and order. There is not a huge amount of criminality or looting or chaos. But the fear is still real. It's still there. You can feel it. You can smell it.

BERMAN: Who's in charge, Clarissa? I mean, who's calling the shots?

WARD: Who's in charge vis-a-vis the Taliban?

BERMAN: Yes.

WARD: That is a very complex question. There is, you know, a whole contingency of Taliban sort of Shura (ph) council people who have been part of the Doha negotiations, who have traditionally been based in Quetta in Pakistan.

And they are, if you like, the sort of lofty ideal leaders. They're the people who -- who set the tone, who set the policies.

But the people on the ground who are in charge are the local commanders. And there's been a lot of speculation for quite some time that at some point, you might see tension between those; because the Taliban of Doha and Quetta might have ideas about, as I said, adapting a more pragmatic, mature, diplomatic approach to things.

But the fighters on the ground who have been fighting and dying and waging this vicious insurgency for 20 years, they're not willing to make compromises on these sorts of religious issues. And most of them are not willing to put down their guns. They've been carrying guns since they were old enough to physically carry them.

And so there's always the potential, at some point down the line, for that disparity to become a source of friction.

KEILAR: Yes, I mean, they're -- also, they're very young, even though they've been carrying guns for years. And I wonder, you know, especially with the way the Taliban just rolled through Afghanistan and into Kabul, how emboldened they are at this point in time, these young fighters who are plentiful, numerous and the ones who have been there on the ground?

WARD: They're absolutely emboldened. I think even they have remarked to me at times that they've been surprised by just how quickly they were able to take this capital of six million people.

But I will say something else. For the most part, they're very disciplined. And if they're told don't interfere with the work of foreign journalists, if they're told don't start flogging people on the streets for smoking, they won't do it. And by the way, yesterday I saw -- I was interviewing a Taliban

commander. There was a man standing right there smoking a cigarette. This is something that 20 years ago, would have been an immediate flogging situation. At this point, the Taliban commander was like, We're not interested in that right now. This is going to be a gradual thing. Ultimately, Afghan -- Afghanistan is Muslim and Muslims all want to live in Sharia, under Sharia, under Islamic law, or their interpret of Islamic law.

But I think they are politically mature enough to understand that this needs to be a gradual process, that this is not something that can be implemented overnight, or it could cost them dearly.

KEILAR: It's very interesting as we see the stakes, sort of their motives for what they're doing, and how long this time of relative calm will hang over Kabul as the U.S. prepares to exit.

Clarissa, thank you so much for taking us there to the ground in Kabul. We really appreciate it. We're going to be checking back with you throughout the show.

BERMAN: Yes. Can I just say how riveting it is, not only to listen to Clarissa and see here, but to see the scenes behind her. This is a city that fell two days ago.

KEILAR: Right. It's amazing.

BERMAN: And we're watching her walk the streets right now. People with just shopping bags going out to get milk, as she said. It's the twilight zone there, and it's hard to get a sense of exactly what's happening.

KEILAR: Look, it's one of those places where, when our correspondents go, even if they're able to go out and quickly, you know, report and get some elements and show us the scenes, you'll notice that when they have to do live shots normally, it's actually from someplace that is quite removed from the street. You know, maybe someplace with a vantage point.

This is very different scene, seeing this on the street.

How long is it going to last? You know, how long will it be possible for western journalists to be where Clarissa is? We don't know. It's possible that goes away.

You know, President Biden defended this decision to end America's combat mission in Afghanistan, returning from Camp David yesterday to deliver this message to the country and the world.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[06:25:06]

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I stand squarely behind my decision. After 20 years, I've learned the hard way that there was never a good time to withdraw U.S. forces. That's why we're still there.

We were clear-eyed about the risks. We planned for every contingency, but I always promised the American people that I would be straight with you. The truth is, this did unfold more quickly than we had anticipated.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: Joining us now to talk about this is David Sanger, CNN political and national security analyst, and White House and national security correspondent for "The New York Times."

David, it's really interesting, because the president really pushing his decision to completely withdraw troops from the U.S. That's something that's popular with Americans. It's also kind of a moot point, because there's no going back on it.

But right now, what is happening in Afghanistan, that there is the question about how does it play out, is Afghan allies who are trapped in Kabul, even trapped outside of Kabul, can't get to the airport. Is the president going to make good, do you think, on his promise to take care of these Afghan allies?

DAVID SANGER, CNN POLITICAL AND NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: It's a fascinating question, Brianna, and it's not clear that he would be able to, given how quickly things unfolded.

The speech was remarkable, I thought, for the fact that the president went through his justification for pulling out. And one could -- could be in support of that, as I think many Democrats and Republicans and Trump supporters are, and still ask the question, Why didn't this evacuation, particularly of those Afghans who have worked for the United States, begin much earlier?

You know, the president made his decision in April to leave by September 11. In fact, the military did it faster. President Trump made an agreement with the Taliban to leave by May 1. Neither one of them expedited the move of these special immigrant visa applicants out of the country faster.

And I think that's a big question right now, clear from what Clarissa said about getting to the airport, about whether it's simply too late for many of them.

BERMAN: This is what President Biden said yesterday. "As we carried out this departure, we made it clear to the Taliban if they attack our personnel or disrupt our operation, the U.S. presence will be swift, and the response will be swift and forceful. We will defend our people with devastating force, if necessary."

Do you understand what that means, David? Devastating force. Does that mean if the Taliban gets in the way of the Afghan allies trying to leave?

SANGER: It's unclear. It seemed to me that -- I read it, John, as a sign that if they get in the way of the Marines coming in and the Marines coming out.

But from Clarissa's report and everything else we have seen, the Taliban are perfectly happy to see the U.S. operation underway here, because they know that, in a few days, in a few weeks, whenever this mops up, we're not there, and from that moment on, they've got complete control of the country.

So if they are showing the kind of discipline that Clarissa was describing, it's not in their interest to get in the way of this. It's in their interest to facilitate it in every possible way until the American embassy personnel and many of these other Afghans are out of the country.

Now, supposing you've worked for the United States for years or for another western power or for a news organization, and you can't get to Kabul. Given the fact that the travel now is so restricted by the -- by the Taliban, it's very unlikely that you are going to be able to make it to the airport, and it's hard to imagine, in this kind of situation, that the U.S. would go on rescue missions in hostile territory. It just does not seem plausible right now.

Similarly, it's not necessarily plausible the U.S. could even recover a lot of the equipment that they gave to, sold to the Afghan National Forces, which are now in the hands of the Taliban.

BERMAN: Therein lies the rub. David Sanger, thank you as always for your insight here.

SANGER: Thank you, John.

BERMAN: Also unfolding this morning, as the death toll rises in Haiti, more than 1,400 people now after that devastating earthquake, rescue crews have a new crisis on their hands as a tropical storm slams the nation. CNN is live on the scene.

KEILAR: Plus, one state is seeing an alarming rise in COVID cases, now forced to open a second makeshift hospital in a parking garage.

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