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Pentagon: U.S. Will Respond If Taliban Attacks Airport; U.S. To Recommend Booster Shots Eight Months After Vaccination; First Female Afghan Ambassador To U.S. On Fate Of Women And Girls. Aired 7:30-8a ET

Aired August 17, 2021 - 07:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[07:30:00]

JOHN KIRBY, PENTAGON PRESS SECRETARY: Yet, our focus is on making sure that continues.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: President Biden said yesterday, "As we carry out this departure, we've made it clear to the Taliban if they attack our personnel or disrupt our operation, the U.S. presence will be swift and the response will be swift and forceful. We will defend our people with devastating force if necessary."

So that's a warning to the Taliban that the U.S. will use devastating force. When, exactly? Can you explain what would trigger the devastating force?

KIRBY: We have the right of self-defense, John, and if we're attacked by the Taliban or by anybody else in our mission in Afghanistan we're going to respond accordingly and appropriately -- swiftly and, as the president said, forcefully. We have capabilities there at the airport to do that. We are flowing in additional capabilities to provide for the defense of the airport and for the operations there.

I'm not going to speculate or hypothesize about whatever any individual operation might be, but we certainly have the capabilities on hand and we're gaining more of those capabilities, more combat power over the coming couple of days.

BERMAN: Again, you limited that to the airport. I guess what I'm asking is does that threat of devastating force extend to the Taliban preventing U.S. allies from getting to the airport or impeding the mission to get them to the airport?

KIRBY: I will go so far as to say, John, that any attack on our people or on our operations at the airport will be met with a swift and forceful unambiguous response, and I think I'm just going to leave it at that.

BERMAN: Americans.

KIRBY: I'm just going to leave it at -- no, not just for Americans -- on our operations at the airport. We are also helping move our allies and partners as well -- seeing if we can help some of them get out of the country. Any attack on our people or our operations at the airport will be met with a response.

BERMAN: What communication has the United States had with the Taliban at this point to assure the safety of people getting to the airport or out?

KIRBY: Speaking from a military perspective, Gen. Frank McKenzie, the Central Command commander, did meet in Doha in the last several days -- over the weekend -- with representatives of the Taliban and he sent that same message to them about the need to not interfere with our operations there at the airport and the fact that we would respond accordingly. I won't go into more detail than that, but the message was unequivocally clear.

And I would tell you, John, that as you and I are speaking today there hasn't been any attack by the Taliban on these operations at the airport --

BERMAN: Has there --

KIRBY: -- and we want to see that continue.

BERMAN: Has there been any assurance from the Taliban?

KIRBY: I won't go into more detail in terms of the conversations, John. What I can tell you is the message was very clear and thus far, we have seen no attack by the Taliban.

BERMAN: So, John, I know you've been watching -- as has, frankly, the world -- Clarissa Ward's reporting from the streets of Kabul right now, witnessing daily life now for people in Afghanistan and the capital city. She joins us now because I know she has a question for you.

KIRBY: You bet.

CLARISSA WARD, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, I just wanted to ask you because, obviously, I'm the one who is here on the ground talking to Afghans every day who worked with the U.S. military, who worked with the U.S. Embassy, who worked with American NGOs or journalistic organizations. I'm the one who has to look them in the eye. Can I offer them your assurance that everyone who has worked with American organizations will be got out of this country safely?

KIRBY: Clarissa, first of all, thanks for your incredibly brave reporting and the -- and the images and the stories that you're telling. We're all grateful and we all know how hard and how dangerous that work is.

I would ask you to tell them that there is a process that they can apply for through the State Department to get onto the list and get onto the manifest, and I would ask them to work with State Department authorities there in Kabul to do that. And if they -- if they are through that process I can assure them and you can assure them on our behalf that we in the Pentagon will do everything we can to help get them out of the country over the next couple of weeks. That's what we're flowing in extra aircraft for. That's why we're

flowing in extra troops to maintain security at that airport so that we can do that.

And I would also say over the last -- you know, since 2005 --

WARD: That's --

KIRBY: -- we've moved 70,000 of these individuals. We know we have an obligation to them.

WARD: To most Afghan people that I am talking to John, that's going to sound like hollow promises. Can I have your word? These people are depending on you. They are depending on America. Their lives are at threat.

They have given everything to work with America to rebuild this country and now they are asking simply for an assurance that they will not be cast aside, they will not be abandoned. That America will step up and take responsibility for the lives that are in its care at the moment.

KIRBY: Clarissa, there's nothing hollow about the obligation that we know we have to these Afghans who so bravely helped us over the last 20 years. Believe me, nobody in the United States more than the Pentagon understands that obligation of these individuals.

[07:35:00]

And as I said before, we will continue to do whatever we can to help them get out of the country in concert with our State Department colleagues. We are absolutely committed to that.

And we're going to stay and we're going to do it for as long as we possibly can -- up until the end of the month, certainly. That's when the mission ends. We're going to continue to work on that very, very hard. That's why we're continuing to flow in more forces and that's why we're continuing to flow in more aircraft.

WARD: What about people whose paperwork has been turned down?

This is something I hear every day. I applied for my SIV, I did it all. The computer said no. I got a rejection. I don't know why.

What's the problem? I worked as a translator in Kandahar for five years.

What about those people? Are you going to retroactively go back and look at these applications again?

KIRBY: Clarissa, I can't speak to the actual process itself. I mean, that is not a process that the Defense Department owns. I know the State Department is very, very focused on this and working very hard to process these applications as fast as possible.

The Secretary of Defense spoke with the Secretary of State last night and they talked about this very thing. Secretary Blinken and his team are working on this very, very hard. I can tell you it has the attention of the top levels at the United States government.

Nobody is just dancing around on this. We understand that time is a critical factor here. We understand that numbers are a critical factor here. And I can assure you we're working on this as hard as we possibly can.

BERMAN: John Kirby, Pentagon press secretary --

WARD: Thank you for your time.

BERMAN: Yes, we do appreciate you being us and be willing to speak to both of us on this. Thank you very much.

KIRBY: You bet.

BERMAN: Clarissa, Brianna, look, I think we know a lot more about the limits of what the U.S. is going to do now, this morning. The threat of devastating force and the promise of military assistance seems to only extend to the borders of the airport at this point this morning, and that could be devastating for thousands, if not tens of thousands of Afghans who want to get out -- because how do they get to the airport?

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: And I wonder, Clarissa, what do you tell them when they ask now with the answer that you just got from the Pentagon?

WARD: I tell them there's no guarantee. There is no assurance. I tell them that I apologize and that I hope with all my heart that they get out, but it is entirely possible that we will have failed them. That's what I tell them.

KEILAR: Is that the takeaway to you -- that Afghan allies of America will be left behind in huge numbers?

WARD: I mean, listen, we have to wait and see, right? You heard from Adm. Kirby there is another -- however long it is -- two weeks -- they say they're going to get tens of thousands of people out.

We remember from the Iraq War, it was a similar situation. There was an absolute panic about getting translators out. And then it did start to move more freely. It did start to flow more freely.

But I do think that part of getting it to flow more freely and getting more people out is to keep these stories on the air. Keep Americans engaging with the fate of their allies here in Afghanistan because the minute America forgets, that's where it stops. And so, I hope that by continuing to tell these stories we can somehow have a positive impact in terms of trying to get more people out of here who are facing real security threats.

BERMAN: Clarissa Ward, again, on the streets in Kabul. We thank you so much for your reporting. We'll come back to you in just a moment.

Up next, the powerful image of that jam-packed U.S. military plane as people try to flee Afghanistan.

KEILAR: And the WHO joins NEW DAY live to respond to the Biden administration recommending booster shots for all Americans.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:43:02]

BERMAN: So, developing news from the Biden administration overnight. Health officials confirming to CNN that there are plans to call for a third shot -- a third Pfizer or Moderna shot for Americans who have already received two booster shots -- beginning as soon as next month.

Obviously, third shots for the immunocompromised have been authorized already. But this news would allow other people, beginning with healthcare workers and then older Americans, to begin receiving a third shot as soon as next month.

Joining me now is Maria Van Kerkhove. She's an infectious disease epidemiologist and the COVID-19 technical lead of the World Health Organization's health emergencies programme. Thank you so much for being with us this morning.

So, the United States getting fully behind the idea of booster shots for most Americans, beginning as soon as next month. What's your view of that?

MARIA VAN KERKHOVE, COVID-19 TECHNICAL LEAD, WHO HEALTH EMERGENCIES PROGRAMME (via Webex by Cisco): So thanks, John, for having me back on the show.

Listen, I'd be very interested to learn more about the plans for this. I do know about the FDA's recommendation about the third dose for immunocompromised patients.

What we are recommending at a global level -- I mean, this is a global pandemic and we need to think about global solutions. What our recommendation is is that all of the world's most vulnerable and those who are most at risk -- health workers -- need to receive their first and second doses before large proportions of the population or all of the population in some countries receive that third dose.

So the science is telling us that the vaccines are incredibly safe and effective at preventing severe disease and death. And so, until the science tells us otherwise, our recommendation remains to make sure that those who are most at risk -- older populations, those with underlying conditions, and critically, our health workers in all countries around the world -- receive that first and second dose before we do the boosters for those who don't necessarily need it right now.

BERMAN: To be blunt, if it is the recommendation or when they recommend third shots for most Americans, starting as soon as next month, this is not something that the WHO supports.

[07:45:05] KERKHOVE: Well listen, it's a global problem and we need a global solution. It's not only about one country. We have a limited amount of vaccine and there's a limited amount of production. We need to use those doses that is epidemiologically sound, that is morally sound, that is economically sound, that is scientifically sound. And that really is focusing on those who are most at risk.

We have a disease right now that is killing people and it doesn't need to be killing people. So we have tools right now. This is a problem that has a solution. So we need to use those vaccines in the most appropriate way possible around the world.

BERMAN: You think this is against the science, as you see it right now?

KERKHOVE: Well, we're looking at the science as it unfolds. And so, again, I'd like to see what the plan is. I'm just learning about it as you are seeing it on television now. We need to see what that plan is.

There are possibilities and there are populations that may need that third dose, so we're not against that. Of course, we want people to be protected and to receive the full course. But what we are trying to move against is giving a third dose to people who already are well protected.

And so, there's a way to do both. There's a way to ensure that those who need that third dose receive it -- that third primary dose. But we are not saying that mass population need to have that third dose.

This is, again -- I'll say it again. It's a global problem and we need to make sure that people are safe, caring for those who are at risk who are hospitalized. We are in the context of a virus that is evolving.

We have the Delta variant now, which is much higher transmissibility. Increased transmission means increased hospitalizations that will put a burden on our healthcare system. And if our health workers around the world are not protected, they will be infected. And this is something that is preventable.

So again, we are all in this together. And so we're very grateful for the United States for sharing doses and we're grateful for that to continue, but we need global solutions.

BERMAN: I want to ask you, "The Washington Post" reported that WHO scientist Dr. Peter Ben Embarek, who initially had dismissed the lab- leak theory as extremely unlikely -- he said he now considers the possibility a probable hypothesis. So what makes it now a probable hypothesis?

KERKHOVE: So, as you know, there's a lot more work that needs to be done to find the virus origins -- the SARS-CoV-2 origins.

The report that was issued by the international team in March 2021 outlined a number of recommended studies that need to go forward. Part of that is the lab hypothesis and looking at the potential that that was the way that the virus entered the human population. And there are a number of other hypotheses that need to be followed up.

From our point of view, all of this remains open to further study and we fully anticipate that this answer will be pursued in all of its forms. And so, we really need a lot more to be done.

We need to depoliticize --

BERMAN: Sure.

KERKHOVE: -- the study of the origins of the virus and make sure that we get those next studies underway.

BERMAN: Is it a more likely hypothesis now than it was a couple of months ago?

KERKHOVE: No, I don't believe it is. You know, the science hasn't changed in terms of our understanding of all of the available evidence. The most likely hypothesis is that this is a coronavirus, so it's likely that it came from a bat. But the big question is did it pass through an intermediate host before it infected humans.

But, of course, we haven't ruled out the lab hypothesis. So until we can rule that out, that hypothesis remains on the table. That's what we're saying. And so we having to pursue all of these hypotheses until some of them are ruled out and then we can get back to the business of really understanding where this pandemic began and how this pandemic began so that we could prevent future pandemics from occurring.

BERMAN: Maria Van Kerkhove, we appreciate you being with us this morning to cover this breaking news. Thank you.

KERKHOVE: Thank you very much.

BERMAN: So in just a few minutes, Dr. Sanjay Gupta will answer your questions about these booster shots.

KEILAR: And just in, Afghanistan's first female mayor says she is waiting to be killed by the Taliban.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:52:27]

KEILAR: The Taliban's takeover prompting fear for many Afghan women and girls -- a return to the harsh treatment that they endured when the Taliban last ruled in Afghanistan 20 years ago.

And joining me now to talk about that is the first woman to serve as Afghanistan's ambassador to the United States, Roya Rahmani. I want to thank you, Ambassador, for coming in to be with us.

I know you left your post about a month ago, I think it was. Is that correct?

ROYA RAHMANI, FORMER AMBASSADOR OF AFGANISTAN TO THE U.S., FIRST WOMAN TO SERVE AS AFGHANISTAN'S AMBASSADOR TO THE U.S.: That's right. KEILAR: But first things first here. You have family in Afghanistan.

How concerned are you? What are you hearing from them?

RAHMANI: I am very concerned. I am extremely worried. What I'm hearing about them -- from them is that they are just waiting to get out to -- they're waiting for the opportunity that they would be called and told that there is a plane that would evacuate them. They haven't, so far.

They are -- we are pleased to hear that they are alive -- they are still alive and they haven't received direct threats in the past two days. But extremely concerned.

KEILAR: And what happens if for some reason they do not get out? It seems very clear. We just spoke with the Pentagon and it seems very clear that there will be many Afghan allies to America that cannot get out once the U.S. is completely gone. Maybe here in a couple of weeks will be the latest.

What happens, perhaps, to people -- it could be your family -- and also women and girls in the country?

RAHMANI: Well, for sure, there will be many women. There will be a lot of people in my country who need to get out that will not get out because there is millions of people who need to get out. And what happens to them is they will be destined to a very difficult and unknown fate. Who knows what happens to them? And I'm not even sure there will be reporters to tell you what is going to happen to them.

KEILAR: What did you think of President Biden's comments last night? One of the things that I know stood out, I'm sure, to Afghans is that he said America can't want this more than the Afghan people or Afghan forces. And I've heard that echoed by some in the U.S. military as well.

RAHMANI: Well, mixed feelings. Number one, I understand if he says that it will resonate with a lot of people. Yes, if Afghans do not want it, why should Americans fight for it? It's a logical thing to say.

[07:55:03]

However, I have to say to all fairness, the Afghan forces were willing to fight. They wanted this. Afghan people did not want this to be their fate and destination.

However, what the leadership did is a different question.

KEILAR: President Ghani.

RAHMANI: Right, yes -- President Ghani and other elements of the government who left people in this mess.

KEILAR: You know, as you are waiting to see what happens with your family and you see what is happening there at the airport, do you have a sense of how many people may be able to get out? And do you trust the Taliban as they give assurances that for the people who won't get out -- for the people who remain in Kabul -- that they are going to be, I guess, better than they were before for lack of a better paraphrasing of what they're saying?

RAHMANI: Well, how many will get out, I have no idea. When we are both looking at the chaos that's happening at the airport, it is extremely disheartening. I wonder why it is and why they cannot pull it together. Honestly, I cannot understand that.

But in terms of what happens after they leave, that's the scariest thing. That's the scariest thing for my own family -- that what will happen to them once everybody has pulled out. As I said, you may not even get to know what happens to them next.

And then, do I trust the Taliban? I'm not so sure. In the provinces, they had a very different action. They did what they did before.

Also, this is a group that are only subscribing to a very specific and narrow worldview, which is not the same thing that the Afghan people can tolerate. They do not want to live under that kind of regime that they are told what to do. And for women and girls, specifically, living under that authoritarian regime that is completely intolerant to the diversity of views and against international human rights standards is dooming them to a very difficult and dark distance.

KEILAR: Well, Ambassador, I do want to stay in touch with you. I know we are watching developments, obviously, in Afghanistan, trying to figure out how many people will be rescued. And we appreciate you coming into the studio this morning.

RAHMANI: Thank you for having me.

KEILAR: John.

BERMAN: So, a life and death situation in Afghanistan for thousands of people. In Washington, that means one thing -- the blame game.

John Avlon with a reality check.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST (on camera): There have been folks on the left and right who wanted to see Americans leave Afghanistan after 20 years. They asked what's the worst that could happen. We now know the answer.

The Taliban back in control of the country with its medieval morality, and the worst is yet to come. Women and girls denied basic human rights. Horrific memories of soccer stadium executions spurring a chaotic attempt to flee the country before it's too late, all just days before the 20th anniversary of 9/11.

One alternative would have been leaving a small residual force of troops at Bagram Air Base to support the Afghan army -- at least until the Taliban complied with the terms of the peace deal -- could have avoided this, at least for a time. Now, that is President Joe Biden's road not traveled. He inherited

America's longest war but the final implosion of 20 years' work occurred on his watch.

But don't even begin to believe the Republican effort to whitewash history and score partisan points over the fall of Afghanistan.

You know, like the RNC's attempt to literally erase praise for Donald Trump's Afghan withdrawal plan from its website in the wake of this disaster. Because in case you forgot, Trump drew down U.S. troops from around 14,000 to some 2,500 while initiating U.S. talks with the Taliban in Doha without the allied Afghan government even having a seat at the table.

So, while former Trump Secretary of State Mike Pompeo was busy dunking on President Biden, he was hoping everyone would forget his own negotiations with the Taliban and his commitment to have, quote, "zero U.S. forces in Afghanistan by spring 20201."

That's right because last year, Trump was crowing about this withdrawal deal that was supposed to take place in May, saying we had very good conversation with the leaders of the Taliban today. They're looking forward to getting this ended. We're looking forward to getting it ended. And I think we all have a very common interest. The relationship is very good that I have with the mullah.

You get that?

DONALD TRUMP, THEN-PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The relationship is very good that I have with the mullah.

AVLON (on camera): All right, let's get real. No one has a good relationship with the mullah. The Taliban are not trustworthy. They're not going to prevent terrorism on their territories, they promised Trump, which is why the Trump administration pressuring the Afghan government to release 5,000 Taliban prisoners, including some who'd been linked to the killing of U.S. troops, contributed to this disaster.

But one issue that united almost all members of Congress was the moral obligation to protect --