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U.S. Races To Evacuate Americans And Afghans By The Thousands; Rep. Tom Malinowski (D-NJ) On Biden Administration's Odds Of Pulling Off Massive Afghanistan Evacuation In Two Weeks; Toobin To Attorney General: Don't Prosecute Donald Trump. Aired 7:30-8a ET

Aired August 18, 2021 - 07:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[07:30:50]

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: President Biden faces more scrutiny both here at home and abroad after the rapid fall of Afghanistan, and there are questions about whether America's chief adversaries could benefit from the Taliban's return to power.

CNN is covering the global reaction.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DAVID CULVER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (on camera): I'm David Culver in Beijing where Chinese officials have publicly slammed the U.S. for what it calls America's hurried exit from Afghanistan. State media seizing on the images of desperation in an effort to show the world what happens when you rely on the U.S., as they characterize it.

But there are underlying fears here that the Taliban rule just over the border might lead to instability in the region, challenging China's financial investments in the Middle East. And there are worries it could incite Islamic extremism here within China. It's for that reason, in late July before the Taliban even took charge, China's foreign minister hosted Taliban leaders for talks -- a seemingly strategic move to keep the peace with their neighbors.

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (on camera): I'm Fred Pleitgen in Moscow as Russia is taking swipes at the U.S. for the chaotic withdrawal from Afghanistan. The Russian envoy for Afghanistan saying that the Russians believe that the U.S.-backed government in Kabul would have lasted a little bit longer and that clearly, the Russians overestimated the Americans.

Meanwhile, the Russians are already talking to the Taliban. The Russian ambassador in Kabul saying he met top Taliban officials and they have guaranteed the security of the Russian embassy in Kabul which, by the way, is going to continue to operate.

SOPHIA SAIFI, CNN PRODUCER (on camera): I'm Sophia Saifi in Islamabad.

And Pakistan has gone ahead on Tuesday night and said that it will not be recognizing the Afghan Taliban as the government of Afghanistan until other regional and international powers make a decision. This is going to be a multilateral decision taken by Pakistan. They're going to wait to see what the regional decision is and then take one accordingly.

It's an uncertain time in the country. There's a brewing refugee crisis on the border with Afghanistan and Pakistan and things are changing day by day. So we just have to wait and see what's going to happen in the days to come.

SALMA ABDELAZIZ, CNN REPORTER (on camera): I'm Salma Abdelaziz in London.

President Biden and Prime Minister Boris Johnson spoke over the phone on Tuesday. This was the first known call with a foreign counterpart for President Biden since the fall of Kabul. The two discussed the importance of coordinating on evacuations for their own nationals, but also for any Afghan nationals that supported the war effort.

They both also agreed that it was important to find a common strategy -- a common approach for the future of Afghanistan. That's why they've agreed to a G7 virtual summit next week.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: All right.

Moments ago, our chief international correspondent Clarissa Ward and her team went near the airport in Kabul, which is the only way out of Afghanistan for the some-15,000 Americans who might be there and the tens of thousands of Afghan allies to the United States that might want to try to get out now. They have to get to the airport in order to have any hopes of getting out, and getting to the airport difficult if not impossible.

Let me give you a sense. I'm going to play a little bit of what Clarissa saw there. Let's watch.

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CLARISSA WARD, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: They've been declined and told that they can't enter the gates or if they simply don't have the wherewithal to get inside.

Cameraman Will Bonnett just panning up right now. You can see it's a pretty large crowd who has formed around us already because this is a slightly unusual situation to be doing live shots from here, I think.

But it's definitely chaotic. It's definitely dangerous. I will say this. The Taliban appears to be trying to disperse the crowds and there are crowds there of young men who seem to be just engaging in, like, criminal activity. I don't know if you heard that.

(Gunshots)

They're kind of running towards the Taliban and then running away from them again, almost like it's a game. But when there's bullets firing like that, Brianna and John, it's clearly not a game.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[07:35:01]

BERMAN: All right, our Clarissa Ward there not far from the airport. You could hear the gunshots there. Clarissa and her team are doing fine.

They also spoke to a man at the airport who spoke perfect English, who told her that he had worked for the Americans and now can't get out because he's been told he doesn't have the right paperwork.

Joining us now is Democratic New Jersey Congressman Tom Malinowski. He's a member of the Foreign Affairs Committee. Congressman, thanks so much for being with us right now.

REP. TOM MALINOWSKI (D-NJ): Sure.

BERMAN: What Clarissa just saw there on the streets outside the airport -- it is symbolic -- more than symbolic. It's what's happening. It shows right now, to an extent, the futility of the U.S. effort there.

MALINOWSKI: So, here is the problem. We control the airport -- at least, in part. The Taliban controls everything else.

President Biden has said, rightly so, that we are going to take these people out. American citizens first, but also our Afghan allies and a wide range of Afghans who are at risk of being targeted by the Taliban.

We need to operationalize that. That means, number one, getting full control of the airport; control of the perimeter, which is difficult but necessary so that we can decide who comes in; and to make absolutely clear that we are going to stay at that airport -- hold that ground until that mission is complete. And we have not yet heard that from the administration.

BERMAN: No, we haven't. In fact, you wrote a letter with a bipartisan group of members of Congress saying stay as long as you need to with as many troops as you need to get everyone out.

My impression from what I've heard from American officials -- top U.S. officials here on this show and otherwise -- is that the end date is August 31st.

MALINOWSKI: So, before Kabul fell, President Biden set August 31st as the end date. And the Pentagon -- they follow orders. They take things literally. That is the only order they've gotten.

Until that's countermanded -- until the White House says that August 31st deadline doesn't apply to the evacuation -- and I do worry that that's the schedule that the Pentagon is operating on and there's no way humanly possible that you can keep our promise -- the promise that the president has made -- by August 31st. BERMAN: What happens to those thousands, if not tens of thousands of

people if the United States does leave on August 31st?

MALINOWSKI: Well, I'm going to trust that we're not going to do that because the president has said very clearly in that speech he gave a couple of days ago, we're going to take these people out. We're not going to leave them behind. And I think that is the key to being able to leave with honor and it's key to our national interests because we don't want to leave the message out there that we leave people behind.

BERMAN: But can't do it by August 31st.

MALINOWSKI: We can't do it, no. I mean, just -- we've lost two or three days, anyway, just with the chaos at the gate. We have people who have onward flights who have been turned back. We have people who don't have flights but they're on our list, and they've been told to go back to Kabul and wait. That's not -- that's not acceptable. We need to bring people in and we need to take care of them at the airport even if it takes several weeks.

BERMAN: How do they get there? How do they get to the airport?

MALINOWSKI: Well look, we do have some leverage with the Taliban here, too. We obviously need a clear message to the Taliban. Do not interfere with our troops at the airport. Do not interfere with people coming to the airport.

The Taliban want us to leave as soon as possible and I think if we tell them we ain't doing that -- if you want us to leave, cooperate with this evacuation effort. Do not impede it. I think that's one way to get leverage.

BERMAN: What about -- and Clarissa was speaking to a young man who spoke perfect English, by the way, who had the courage to say on international television I worked for the Americans --

MALINOWSKI: Yes.

BERMAN: -- which is brave. It just shows you how desperate he is to get out.

But he also said he'd been turned back because -- and it wasn't clear if he was turned back by the Taliban or by some U.S. person at the gate because he didn't have a piece of paper. He didn't have the right piece of paper.

MALINOWSKI: We're going to have to be very creative here because there are lots of people who have that piece of paper. They may have a passport, they may have a visa. They may have everything but they may not want to bring it with him through Taliban checkpoints. Because if the Taliban finds that American piece of paper, they're on the Taliban's list, right?

And so, we -- but we know who these folks are. We know their phone numbers. That's another way of identifying people. There may be other creative ways as we contact people to ask them to come to the airport to give them something that isn't obvious to the Taliban but that might allow our people at the gate to identify them. That's going to take a few days just to set up that system and to get control of that gate -- another reason why there can't be a deadline.

BERMAN: You were critical of the Biden administration's decision to withdraw all U.S. troops. You thought there should be a remaining presence there, at least for some time. It happened. It's done at this point, although now the U.S. has more troops in than we did -- than the United States did a short time ago.

How would you assess how the Biden administration is handling it now, in this moment?

MALINOWSKI: Well, I was critical of the Trump administration when they --

BERMAN: Also, yes.

MALINOWSKI: -- made this decision and I urged the Biden administration not to continue that policy. We are where we are. The focus right now has to be on getting people out.

[07:40:06]

You know, I wish we had at least stayed until -- I wish we had stayed in the airport, basically, and stayed at the Bagram Air Base until at least all of our people were out. I think that would have been a better way to handle this.

But at the same time, I think people need to understand there is no such thing as a non-chaotic evacuation. Once you start an evacuation you're, in a sense, precipitating. You're signaling your expectation that the place is going to fall and you're precipitating that.

I mean, imagine if a voice came on the P.A. system in this building to say there's danger in this building and we have to evacuate. But don't worry -- you have six months to do it.

BERMAN: Yes.

MALINOWSKI: I mean, we'd want to leave right away.

And so, at any point this started, it would have been somewhat chaotic. I just wish we had held the airfields and not left before -- you know, before we got everybody out.

BERMAN: Congressman Tom Malinowski, I appreciate you being with us this morning.

MALINOWSKI: Good morning.

BERMAN: Thank you very much.

Much more on our breaking news. CNN's Clarissa Ward on the streets of Kabul as gunfire rings out from the Taliban. And Afghans tell her -- brave enough to tell her they worked with the Americans. They need to get out. We're going to go back to her live on the streets.

KEILAR: Plus, did former President Trump commit federal crimes in his final desperate attempts to overturn the 2020 election? Why our chief legal analyst says no, next.

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[07:45:45]

KEILAR: We continue to learn new details about the final days of Donald Trump's presidency and just how far his effort to overturn the election he just lost went. But is there enough evidence for Attorney General Merrick Garland to bring charges against the former president?

Let's bring in Norm Eisen. He served as counsel for the Democrats on the House Judiciary Committee during the first impeachment of President Trump. He is a CNN legal analyst. And, Jeffrey Toobin is our chief legal analyst and former federal prosecutor. He has a new CNN op-ed up that we're going to talk about a little bit here called "Attorney General Merrick Garland: Don't Prosecute Donald Trump."

OK, why Jeffrey?

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Because based on the available evidence there is no crime that Donald Trump has committed. Was his behavior outrageous? Was it terrible? Was it something that if he'd remained in office probably would have been impeachable? Absolutely.

But criminal law is something different. There are very specific requirements regarding intent, regarding actions that limit what the criminal law can do. And so far, based on the available evidence, I don't think there's anything you could prosecute Donald Trump for.

KEILAR: Norm?

NORMAN EISEN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER HOUSE JUDICIARY SPECIAL COUNSEL IN TRUMP'S FIRST IMPEACHMENT TRIAL: Well, Brianna, it's nice to be back with you and with my old friend, Jeff Toobin.

And what he says is provocative. It will wake you up in the morning. But, Brianna, it's totally wrong.

Right now, we live in a system where Donald Trump tested our most fundamental legal precept -- no one is above the law.

If the attorney general discovers evidence that Donald Trump did wrong, of course, he should be investigated and prosecuted. And, Brianna, contrary to Jeff, there is already substantial evidence to predicate an investigation -- to open an investigation.

When you have a president who says to the Georgia Secretary of State just find 11,780 votes, or says to his own acting attorney general just say the election was corrupt and leave the rest to me, those are the statements of someone who knows --

TOOBIN: What's the crime, Norm?

EISEN: -- that he did wrong.

TOOBIN: Norm?

EISEN: Jeff, it's election, potentially -- all I'm arguing is that, of course, the attorney general should investigate it. And when you say there's little reason to even open a criminal investigation, that's wrong. The potential crimes -- election fraud, obstruction of an official proceeding, a conspiracy to defraud the United States, and on, and on, and on.

TOOBIN: Really, on and on? All those --

EISEN: It must be investigated, Jeff. It must be investigated.

TOOBIN: All those -- all those statutes you mentioned -- the election fraud, conspiracy to defraud, obstruction of justice -- they have specific intent requirements. They have requirements that say you have to prove that the defendant intended to violate the law. Intended to do wrong.

What's the evidence that Donald -- you know, usually, when you prosecute someone as specific intent crime, you have to show that they lied about what they do. I mean, what they did. They covered it up.

What Donald Trump did was in plain sight. And for better or worse, every indication is that he actually believes that there was fraud in this investigation. So telling people to investigate fraud does not appear to me to be evidence of a crime.

EISEN: Seriously, Jeff?

TOOBIN: Do you think -- do you think his speech on January sixth where he said let's march to the Capitol, let's be strong -- do you think that was a crime that he should go to jail for?

EISEN: Seriously, Jeff? Now you want us to believe that Donald Trump was speaking the truth? You wrote in your op-ed that Trump would assert. He was seeking to uphold the law. And we're supposed to believe him?

Jeff, this was a person who lied 30,000 times. We're not going to believe him for the first time now.

And I think it's equally plausible and more than plausible enough for the attorney general to open an investigation that when Donald Trump says to the Georgia Secretary of State just find 11,780 votes, or when he says to his own acting attorney general just say the election was corrupt and leave the rest to me, he knew that there was no basis.

[07:50:12]

Look at the ridiculous grounds for his claim. He knew there was no basis. He's a serial liar. Of course, we shouldn't believe that.

TOOBIN: I mean --

EISEN: And cut off -- and, Jeff -- and cut off an investigation? How can you say there's little reason to investigate? The attorney general must investigate this.

And, Jeff, to your point about the law, we prosecute this kind of thing all the time. A government official in United States versus DeMuro, last year in Philly, was charged for adding ballots to increase the vote totals for candidates and certifying the fraudulent tallies.

TOOBIN: Of course -- of course, he was prosecuted.

EISEN: That's election fraud.

TOOBIN: Come on, Norm, let me talk for a second.

EISEN: Donald Trump should be investigated.

TOOBIN: But what -- you know -- urging people to investigate is very different from stuffing a ballot box, which is what your --

EISEN: You should never have written --

TOOBIN: -- what your case was about.

EISEN: Jeff, excuse me. You should never have written there is little reason to even open a criminal investigation. That is wrong, Jeff. You know better. You were a prosecutor.

TOOBIN: I certainly was, and that's why I wrote this. Because there are people out there, including you, including many people who hate Donald Trump and think he was a terrible --

EISEN: No.

TOOBIN: -- president. And I think he was a terrible --

EISEN: I do not hate Donald Trump. I worked on his -- no. I worked on his transition, Jeff. I volunteered to help -- before I found out what a crook he was, I volunteered to help. I do not hate Donald Trump. I do not live with hate in my heart for anyone.

I think there's good reason to believe he violated the law and there should be an investigation. Jeff, this is the United States of America. No one is above the law.

TOOBIN: You know, one of the -- one of the touchstones -- Norm, you know more about dictatorships than most people. You've lived -- you know a lot about what life was like behind the iron curtain.

One of the touchstones of despotic countries is that when the new people come in, they criminally prosecute the old people. That is -- that is a touchstone of dictatorships and despotism. We have a tradition in this country that we don't do that. Now, it is true no one is above the law. No one -- you know, that is

not an absolute policy. But you should not prosecute people in this country unless you are absolutely sure. Should you disgrace them?

Should you impeach them? Impeachment is very different. You and I agreed that Donald Trump should be impeached for the multiple times he was impeached. That's one thing.

But criminal law is another. It's about locking people up. And it's important for the civil liberties in this country that we only use that power when there is absolutely clear evidence of violation of federal law. I don't see it here. I don't think we're going to see it here. And I think that's a very different scenario from impeachment.

EISEN: Jeff, when you said I know a lot about despotism I thought maybe my kids had been saying things on social media about my abilities as a dad.

It's true. I served as an ambassador --

TOOBIN: Right.

EISEN: -- in a country -- I served as an ambassador in a country where the communist regime had been in place and the iron curtain fell. But I learned another lesson there, Jeff. You have to balance this principle that we don't normally -- it's a norm. We don't normally prosecute ex-presidents. But you have to balance it against the law and the evidence.

And it is -- would be even worse if the attorney general found compelling evidence that would lead anybody else to be prosecuted as Mr. DeMuro was. And Jeff, a former congressman, Ozzie Myers, is about to stand trial for the same thing -- the same kind of conduct that Trump engaged in but on a smaller scale.

It would be terribly wrong -- even worse than prosecuting an ex- president if there were compelling evidence that the same crimes had been committed. And I think the statement just find 11,780 votes, just say the election was corrupt and leave the rest to me -- that's enough evidence to open an investigation. The attorney general has to balance the norm that you describe against the principle that no one is above the law.

TOOBIN: The answer to -- I mean, the -- yes -- the problem with what you're saying is you are assuming facts that don't exist yet. I mean, sure, you can investigate in the hopes of finding something, but what I was writing about is what the facts are now. And what the facts are now is that there is no evidence that Donald Trump committed any crime.

That -- you know -- so -- I mean, you can always say well, let's investigate and hope to find something --

EISEN: Jeff, you could never open a white-collar case.

TOOBIN: -- but that's not -- you know, that's not evidence. That's a hope.

[07:55:00]

And what I'm writing about is what the evidence actually is. And the evidence is he gave a terrible speech. He was -- you know, he behaved badly with his attorney general. But is that a crime? Is that something that we're going to throw Donald Trump in jail for?

Is that -- you know, you want to have that dominate the news for the next three years to be the only story that any of us cover if Donald Trump is prosecuted? I don't think so. I don't think that is helpful for the country, I don't think there's evidence to support it, and I don't think the Biden administration should do it.

EISEN: Jeff, you're ignoring the evidence that I'm presenting you with. When a president says -- we now know -- we have the tape. I've listened to the tape as I'm sure you have as well.

TOOBIN: I've listened to the tape, too.

EISEN: Just fine -- let me finish, Jeff. Let me finish. Let me finish. Hold on.

TOOBIN: I don't want to get overly technical. That's a Georgia -- there is a possible Georgia crime violation.

EISEN: Let me finish. Well --

TOOBIN: But, it's a Georgia law. But I was talking about federal law.

EISEN: Oh, I'm going to come to Georgia. I'm talking about the federal evidence, Jeff. Just find 11,780 votes. Just -- a statement to his A.G. -- just say the election was corrupt and leave the rest to me. Come on. You know it's wrong.

TOOBIN: Well, what's -- I mean --

EISEN: Let me finish, Jeff.

TOOBIN: OK.

EISEN: You know it's wrong when you wrote there's little reason to even open a criminal investigation. At least take that back, Jeff. Of course, the attorney general -- he has concrete evidence of corrupt intent here. You expect me to believe that Trump was telling the truth? Of course, the attorney general should take a hard look at this.

Now, nobody is saying -- I'm not saying rush to a prosecution. You know and I know we don't have all the information the A.G. has.

But, Jeff, you're going to look -- you're going to look bad and the country is going to look bad. That's what matters. If e-mails come out, witnesses come out, other evidence comes out. If we took your principle we could never investigate a white-collar case. So, yes, the A.G. must investigate. At least admit you were wrong to

say that there's little reason even to open a criminal investigation, my friend.

TOOBIN: You know, you just began a whole series of statements with if, if, if. You know, if there's evidence of this, if there's evidence of that.

Of course, if there is evidence of -- you know, that Donald Trump was one of the people who invaded the Capitol who was on the -- on the floor of the Senate -- yes, then he should be prosecuted. But there is not evidence now and I haven't seen it and I don't think this is a productive route for the country to go down.

KEILAR: Oh, there we go. That was -- I just excused myself from the discussion. It seemed --

TOOBIN: Sorry, Brianna.

KEILAR: It seemed prudent -- no, no -- no, no -- don't be sorry. That was quite a discussion, gentlemen.

Obviously -- look, there's a lot to discuss when it comes to this. It is wonderful to see you both this morning, Norm Eisen and Jeffrey Toobin. Thank you, guys.

TOOBIN: See you, Norm.

EISEN: See you, Jeff. Thanks, Brianna.

BERMAN: Oh, my turn to talk now? That was like Ali-Frazier -- all three of them tied up into one moment right there.

KEILAR: I know. I mean, it was -- that was something.

BERMAN: I thought you handled it brilliantly.

KEILAR: By taking a bathroom break?

(Laughter)

BERMAN: All right. So, as everyone knows, in Texas, the governor there, Greg Abbott, who just tested positive with COVID -- he has made it impossible or tried to make it next to impossible for local school boards and towns to make their own decisions on masking in schools. So, one teacher went on social media to express her concern -- listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JENNY GILLIS, TEACHER PLEADING IN VIDEOS ABOUT COVID FEARS: If I die, who's going to take care of my children? And if I end up in the hospital, how am I going to pay those bills? And if I give COVID to my students or my own children and they die, how am I going to live with that?

And I want you to ask any teacher how they feel this year and I'm sure that they will tell you that they have never experienced anxiety like this. Because it is like we are trying to protect our students from a mass shooting that we know is coming but cannot do anything about.

Except we can do something about it, it's just that not everyone agrees that wearing a mask will stop the onslaught of students and staff who are likely to become sick -- and that makes me sick.

We're tired of fighting parents who feel like mask mandates violate rights. We want parents to know that we are on the same team. That we would step in front of a bullet and die for your child. And we want for your child to be comfortable. But more than anything, we want them to be alive.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: Joining us now is the woman who posted that video, Jennie Gillis. She's a high school English teacher in Round Rock, Texas Independent School District. Today is her district's first day of school. So, teacher -- Jennie, why'd you post that video?