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FDA Allows Mix And Match Boosters; Thomas Lamadrid Is Interviewed About Questioning Trump; Carolyn Waibel Is Interviewed About School Board Harassment; Woman Raped On Train As Passengers Watch. Aired 8:30-9a ET

Aired October 19, 2021 - 08:30   ET




JOHN AVLON, CNN ANCHOR: New this morning, the FDA is expected to announce a mix and match approach for booster shots, according to "The New York Times." Boosters of the Moderna and Johnson & Johnson vaccines are expected to be authorized any day now. And "The Times" says the FDA plans to allow people to receive a different COVID-19 vaccine as a booster than the one they initially received.

More than 10 million Americans, only about 3 percent nationwide, have already received a booster. And with this news, tens of millions more will become eligible for their extra shot.

Joining me now is Dr. Ashish Jha, dean of Brown University School of Public Health.

Dr. Jha, thanks for joining us, as always. Now, you've been predicting that most Americans will end up getting a booster shot but by early next year. So could this mixing and matching of the vaccine speed up that timeline big time?

DR. ASHISH K. JHA, DEAN, BROWN UNIVERSITY SCHOOL OF PUBLIC HEALTH: Yes, good morning. Thanks for having me back.

Yes, first and foremost, I think people who are older, people who are chronically ill, they need a booster. And whether you got a Moderna, a Pfizer, a J&J, it doesn't matter. You need a booster and you should go out and get one.

And the mixing and matching thing basically says it doesn't really matter which booster you get. If you had the Moderna shot before, you can get another Moderna, you can get a Pfizer, it's fine.

I do think this will speed this up. Again, high risk people should be getting boosters now. I expect lower risk people to be getting a booster maybe later in this year or early next year.

AVLON: "The New York Times" reporting that an NIH study presented last week to the FDA's advisory panel suggested that Johnson & Johnson recipients might be the ones who benefit the most from this booster shot of the Moderna vaccine. So, should those folks who got the J&J initially be worried about the

efficacy of their original dose?

JHA: No. Look, J&J's a very good vaccine. It probably turns out that it's a two-shot vaccine that -- just the way Moderna and Pfizer are. We had hoped that J&J would be a one and done. You probably needed that second shot.

So, at this point, what I'm recommending to people, is if you got J&J, get a second shot. You can get a second J&J shot. I think that's going to get authorized very quickly by the FDA. Or you can get a second shot of Moderna or Pfizer, and that would also serve you quite well.

AVLON: Well, that mix and match is a whole new ball game.

I want to pivot now to conservative radio host and noted vaccine skeptic Dennis Prager, who says he got COVID on purpose. I want you to take a listen and then respond.


DENNIS PRAGER, CONSERVATIVE RADIO HOST: It is infinitely preferable to have natural immunity than vaccine immunity. And that is what I hoped for the entire time. Hence, I so engaged with strangers, constantly hugging them, taking photos with them, knowing that I was making myself very susceptible to getting COVID, which is indeed as bizarre as it sounded what I wanted.


AVLON: What's your response to that?

JHA: I mean, it's deeply irresponsible and deeply disrespectful to the families of the 700,000 Americans who have died of COVID. This is a deadly disease. We don't encourage people to go out and get a deadly disease with the hope that they survive it and don't end up having long-term consequences.

Look, natural immunity is good. Actually most of the evidence suggests that vaccine induced immunity is at least as good and probably better, but it doesn't come with the side effect of actually getting the disease and having long-term consequences.

You know, it -- that -- that kind of argument, as I said, is deeply irresponsible because I worry that people will listen to him and put themselves and their families and their communities at risk.

AVLON: And that is indeed the stakes in this case.

Dr. Ashish Jha, thank you very much, as always.

JHA: Thank you.

AVLON: Up next, a major college that just fired its head football coach for refusing to get a COVID shot. BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: And the lawyers who just questioned former

President Trump under oath for more than four hours. We're going to talk to one of them, next.



KEILAR: Time now for "Five Things to Know for Your New Day.

House investigators meet today to decide whether Trump ally Steve Bannon should be referred to the Justice Department for criminal contempt. Bannon is defying a congressional subpoena, citing executive privilege.

AVLON: "The Wall Street Journal" reports that the Haitian gang that kidnapped 17 missionaries, including 16 Americans, is demanding $1 million each for their release.

KEILAR: And cargo gridlock has eased at the Port of Los Angeles, but some 200,000 shipping containers remain parked off of the coast. The huge backlog there. Some ocean traffic, as you can see, coming just as the demand for retail items is soaring for the holiday season.

AVLON: And Washington State University's head football coach, Nick Rolovich, fired for refusing to be vaccinated. Washington Governor Jay Inslee required full vaccinations by Monday for most state employees.

KEILAR: And a seven-foot-tall statue of Thomas Jefferson will be removed from the New York City council's chambers. It's the culmination of a two decade effort by council members prompted by Jefferson's history as a slave holder.

AVLON: And that's "Five Things to Know for Your New Day." More on these stories all day on CNN and And don't forget to download the "Five Things" podcast every morning. Go to

All right, former President Donald Trump questioned under oath for more than four hours on Monday.


Trump deposed as part of a lawsuit brought by men alleging they were assaulted by his security during a demonstration outside Trump Tower in 2015. In a statement, the former president called the deposition harassment.

Joining me now is one of the lawyers representing the protesters in the case, Thomas Lamadrid.

Thomas, it's good to see you.

Donald Trump under oath, required to tell the truth. First of all, how did it go and what was your strategy to see that he did tell the truth? THOMAS LAMADRID, CO-COUNSEL FOR 2015 TRUMP TOWER PROTESTERS SUING

DONALD TRUMP: Well, you know, it went well, I think, all and all. Our strategy to make sure he would tell the truth, I think, you know, we had him under oath, we posed the questions and we tried to corner him. You know, at times he was combative and evasive, but we did pose the questions and we got answers, I think, for the most part to most questions.

AVLON: So I know you can't -- you cannot say directly what he said under the deposition. At some point the transcript will be released. But you say he was evasive at times. He returned to form.

LAMADRID: Yes. If you've seen Trump in a press, like I think most of us have, and the way that he responds to the press, it wasn't so different to the way he answers questions for them.

AVLON: What was his demeanor? Was it combative? Was he trying to be more disciplined because he was aware of being under oath and changed his posture, so to speak?

LAMADRID: I would say no. I mean, just like I said, he was very much like the Donald Trump we've seen in the press. You know, he was at times going on ad-libbing about things and many times being evasive and being combative.

AVLON: And what really stood out to you? I mean what word for you, the headline so to speak for your case that came out of this?

LAMADRID: Well, like you said, I can't talk about specifics right now. I think the transcript will come out eventually. And maybe at that point you'll -- you and the others will be able to see many of the things that stood out. I think quite a few things he said stand out quite a bit.

AVLON: And let me just press you a little bit. I know you can't get into specifics, but what sort of things stood out to you?

LAMADRID: I can't get into specifics, sorry, John.

AVLON: Well, you can't forgive the journalist for trying. I guess the question is, what's next? What's next for this case?

LAMADRID: Well, so we have a conference scheduled for October 25th, this coming Monday. And we're looking to set a trial date as soon as possible. We'd like to see this trial be conducted and finished before the end of the year.

AVLON: Let me just pull back for a second. What does it mean for a former president to be deposed? You were in the room. That seems historic, as well as an assertion of the idea that no one is above the law om America.

LAMADRID: Well, I think that's exactly right. Our clients have waited and we have waited six years to get Mr. Trump under oath to answer to their claims. And I think this is really about sending the message that no matter who you are, how powerful and rich you think you are, you can't suppress somebody's rights using force.

AVLON: Did Trump seem to bristle at the fact that he was under oath, required to give a deposition in this case?

LAMADRID: Yes, I think a few times he did complain about having to be there and having to sit and answer all our questions.

AVLON: Well, Thomas Lamadrid, I want to thank you for joining us here on NEW DAY. We look forward to the release of that transcript and I think there are going to be more depositions in Donald Trump's near future.

LAMADRID: Thank you for having me, John.

AVLON: Thank you.

All right, up next, the local school board member who says she quit in the face of unrelenting harassment. What she says her opponents did to her.

KEILAR: And a woman raped on a commuter train as passengers watched, apparently for minutes. Why didn't any of them do anything about it?



KEILAR: A school board member in St. Charles, Illinois, resigning after what she calls unrelenting harassment from community members who don't agree with the board's views on in person learning, mask requirements and other issues. My next guest claims that she has been harassed all sorts of different ways. And a warning, that we do have an image here that may be disturbing for some, but we want to show you something that she's dealt with here. This is a dead mouse left at the doorstep of her home. She joins us now.

Carolyn Waibel with us.

Carolyn, I want to thank you for being with us.

I think it's important that people know what it is you're dealing with just to be on the school board. You've since resigned. But just tell us about the kind of harassment that you've endured.

CAROLYN WAIBEL, FORMER SCHOOL BOARD MEMBER, ST. CHARLES UNIT DISTRICT 303: Thank you, Brianna, for inviting me here today, first off.

So, it has come in lots of different forms. I -- this is my second term. I was first selected in 2017. So my second term here is 2021.

Some of the harassment has been online -- unrelenting online social media attacks. That's pretty typical for an elected official these days. But they've crossed the line to personal family discriminatory posts. There is threatening and harassing emails. The first one was one that threatened the board as to if you recall the Utah board that was forced out of the room and it said, you're next. So, we've reported some of those to the local police department and

then they take it and decide what is a threat assessment and go from there. But there has been vandalism to my home, there was someone that came on my front --

KEILAR: Tell us -- tell us what that -- what happened to your home.

WAIBEL: Well, someone -- and, again, this is -- we don't know who, but there was wires cut on my -- unplugged and -- or cut on my air conditioning unit. So we had to replace that in the home. Someone came on premise and unplugged a refrigerator/freezer in my garage and then entered or opened the door into the laundry room very loudly when I was home.


And by the time I got there, there was no one there. So those reports have been filed. But no evidence as to who it was at this time. But all intimidation tactics.

If it was just one or two incidents, it wouldn't -- it would be perplexing. But that -- all those combined. There's also been trespassing on my property, out, you know, not in the public area, into my actual property. I have a video doorbell that's picked up some of this. We've had, as you said, the dead rodents.

There's also been -- this community group that has created chaos in our community has put in claims, unfounded claims, into the attorney general, the state's attorney. They tried to circulate a position to recall the board, which is absolutely within their right, but there's no legislation that supports it. And there -- it was unfounded claims of wrongdoing that didn't happen.

So, it's just been going on for over a year, in addition into the personal -- the personal things in our homes.

KEILAR: So the effect on this, I mean -- and people have harassed you in the grocery store, or they videotaped you in the grocery store, as I understand.

WAIBEL: That's correct, yes.

KEILAR: Tell us about your decision, deciding to resign, and what you think that means because you're not the only one who's come to that decision.

WAIBEL: Correct. So I'm the second board member to resign this year from my board. I've been approached by other board members in our area that have the same thing going on.

I need to do what's right for my family, for -- and to put their personal safety first. I mean it's been a very difficult decision for me. I served in this area for ten years for the -- for the benefit of our students in the area and our kids in regards to education, mental health, and democracy. I think we've lost track of all civility in the -- in -- when it comes

to legislation. We -- we can parent advocate, respectfully and professionally, but I think we've lost track of that.

And so I really have a concern for the future of not only our school districts, but our local governing bodies because we are not holding up the parameters in which that -- we have in policy.

So, I have concern about how we're going to do that and what kind of legislation we may need or how we're going to keep track of that.

I believe in First Amendment rights, Brianna, let me just tell you. I was the first one on our board to talk about, we need more time with our -- with our school board members, we need to make sure that we're transparent and we're forward thinking about what we're letting the public have access to. So I am all for more communication and transparency.


WAIBEL: But when you do it in a nonproductive way, it is -- it is not appropriate. It's not what this country was founded on. And it's -- it's -- it's just not right. I don't know what else to say about it.

KEILAR: Yes. And, look, some of these things, obviously, approaching dangerous, which is clear, certainly meant to instill fear in you and others.


KEILAR: And, Carolyn, I thank you for coming on this morning to tell us what you've been going through.

WAIBEL: Thank you for having me. I, again, just hope that we can be a kinder society to each other and hope that our boards and our legislation can figure out a solution for this. Thanks for having me, Brianna.

KEILAR: Yes, me too.

Carolyn, thank you so much.

And here's what else to watch today.


ON SCREEN TEXT: 1:00 p.m. ET, White House press briefing.

2:00 p.m. ET, Biden meets with progressives.

4:30 p.m. ET, Biden meets with moderates.


KEILAR: A pair of pivotal meetings today at the White House, progressives and then moderates in the Oval Office with President Biden's agenda at stake.

AVLON: But, first, a woman raped on a commuter train as people watched but not one of them helped. How does something like this happen?



AVLON: When a woman was raped by a stranger on a Pennsylvania commuter train last week, police say there were a number of bystanders who watched it happen. And they did not only fail to intervene, they also didn't even bother to call the cops.

Joining us now is Alexis Piquero. He's a criminologist at the University of Miami.

Alex, how does something like this happen?


I wish you and I weren't having this conversation, to be quite honest. I think that there are probably three things here. The first one is, some people may have been concerned about retaliation. Some people may have been concerned about being harmed themselves. And some people may have thought that someone else was going to intervene. All three of those, in my view, John, are unacceptable.

AVLON: I mean fear is not an excuse to not intercede when a fellow citizen is being attacked.

PIQUERO: Absolutely.

AVLON: But there are larger questions here as well. I want to play for you what a local police superintendent said about this horrific incident.


TIMOTHY BERNHARDT, SUPERINTENDENT, UPPER DARBY POLICE: But there was a lot of people, in my opinion, that should have intervened. Somebody should have done something. It speaks to where we are in society. I mean who would allow something like that to take place? So, it's troubling.


AVLON: What about that societal point? What does this say to you about where our society is right now?

PIQUERO: It worries me, John. I think -- you know, look, the police can't be everywhere at all times and it's up to us to police each other and also to be the eyes and ears of society when the police aren't around. The onus is on all of us to take care of one another.

AVLON: Yes, just being decent, honorable human beings and fellow citizens.

Finally, could there be any legal recourse for people who watch a crime like this and don't intercede or even report it?

PIQUERO: It depends on every state has a good Samaritan law or not. In the case of Pennsylvania, what could happen here is that people who may have videotaped a crime, they could be subject to charges. And that's up to the D.A. as they do their investigation right now.

AVLON: That raises an extreme question with the -- with cameras ubiquitous right now, why wasn't this filmed in addition to why nobody intervened? So what -- what would you council people?

PIQUERO: Yes, that's -- I would council people that if they see a crime going on, that you immediately call 911 to get the authorities there. You know, that -- we live in a world where everything's captured on videotape and sometimes that can be useful for police in their investigations. But when a woman is being assaulted and nobody's doing anything, it really worries me, John.

AVLON: Of course. Thank you very much for joining us, Alexis.

PIQUERO: My pleasure.

AVLON: I mean --

KEILAR: I think -- I think when anyone is being assaulted and people are standing by, you know, it's just -- it just really does make you wonder about what happened in this particular case and what it says more broadly about where we are.


AVLON: Stand up. Speak out. Help your fellow citizen. It's basic.


CNN's coverage continues right now.