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Judge Rejects New Trump Bid To Keep January 6th Documents Secret; Judge Snaps At Prosecutor In Rittenhouse Trial As Defense Demands A Mistrial; Trump Allies Pushing For "Stay Away" Strategy In 2022 Races. Aired 7:30-8a ET
Aired November 11, 2021 - 07:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[07:30:00]
BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: What do you think about this development the judge has denied this request basically for a stay, but it's not the end of President Trump's potential legal avenues here to get this information to stay down?
ROBERT COSTA, CO-AUTHOR, "PERIL", NATIONAL POLITICAL REPORTER, THE WASHINGTON POST: It's likely this legal fight will go all the way to Supreme Court.
And it's going to be critical for the House January 6 Committee to have these records. If they do not know who President Trump was calling on January fifth, January sixth in the morning, then how do they really have a full portrait of his conduct? And we're never going to have clear answers unless we have the documents in our hands as reporters or if there are lawmakers on Capitol Hill.
KEILAR: Your book is being cited time and again -- the one you wrote with Bob Woodward -- and I wonder what you think that means for where the committee is?
COSTA: This committee still needs a breakthrough witness. Our book is showing the firsthand account sometimes of people who were participating. We also give a picture of satellite witnesses -- people who are knowledgeable about events.
What this committee needs, clearly, is some kind of witness to be what I would call the John Dean of the January 6 Committee. Someone to go before cameras, publicly tell a story, and detail if there was a criminal conspiracy in any way.
KEILAR: So, that day the vice president was obviously very much in danger in the Capitol. And you now see the committee zeroing in on his inner circle, including his former national security adviser Keith Kellogg, among others.
You know, what is your expectation about what they can learn from Keith Kellogg and whether he might be willing to actually tell them something?
COSTA: Well, based on our reporting in the book, Gen. Kellogg is someone who is very close to President Trump. So, just as my -- as a reporter, my assessment would be low expectations about Kellogg.
He is someone who was with Trump on January sixth. He witnessed the president in the Oval Office. But this is someone who many Pence allies would say privately and publicly is very cozy with Trump politically and personally.
KEILAR: At the time, though, those around Pence -- those who would be more loyal to Pence than to Trump were very upset with the president for not intervening, right?
COSTA: They were over at the Capitol and there's still some confusion among Pence associates about why Kellogg, who was Pence's national security adviser, decided to stay at the White House with Trump on January sixth instead of going to the Capitol with most of the other Pence advisers.
KEILAR: You know, I wonder if you are seeing this -- but after this election in Virginia where the governor distanced himself somewhat astutely from former President Trump, some Republicans seemed to be a little emboldened, like Chris Christie, who said this -- and obviously, he may be considering a run. He said this, basically taunting former President Trump about losing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRIS CHRISTIE (R), FORMER GOVERNOR OF NEW JERSEY: I'm not going to get into a back-and-forth with Donald Trump, but what I will say is this. When I ran for reelection in 2013, I got 60 percent of the vote. When he ran for reelection, he lost to Joe Biden. I'm happy to have that comparison stand up because that's the one that really matters.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KEILAR: Ouch. What do you think?
COSTA: Well, where's the path at this point in the Republican Party for someone like Chris Christie? He -- in the old days you would live up in New Hampshire. We'd go up to Manchester and cover so -- and go to the Red Arrow Diner -- that John McCain strategy of being the independent voice in a party up in New Hampshire.
But President Trump -- he -- Trump dominated in New Hampshire when he ran in the primaries. So, Christie's trying to get out there. So are other Republicans, but Trump still has the political capital. And in politics, you have to beat somebody and you have to actually take them on. So, they're trying to take him on.
But Christie's also, like so many Republicans, in a sense, politically compromised. That famous photo of Christie standing behind Trump. So many Republicans, even if they don't like him now, enabled him along the way.
KEILAR: He did debate prep with him for crying out loud --
COSTA: He did.
KEILAR: -- right?
COSTA: He did. He was with him in 2016 and 2020.
KEILAR: Robert Costa, author of "Peril" -- co-author of "Peril," thanks for being with us.
COSTA: Thanks so much.
JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: So, the judge in the Kyle Rittenhouse trial exploded at the prosecution. Let's watch it again.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JUDGE BRUCE SCHROEDER, KENOSHA COUNTY CIRCUIT COURT, WISCONSIN: I was astonished when you began your examination by commenting on the defendant's post-arrest silence. That's basic law. It's been basic law in this country for 40 years, 50 years. I have no idea why you would do something like that.
THOMAS BINGER, ASSISTANT DISTRICT ATTORNEY, KENOSHA COUNTY, WISCONSIN: Before the --
SCHROEDER: Don't get brazen with me. You know very well that an attorney can't go into these types of areas when the judge has already ruled without asking outside the presence of the jury to do so, so don't give me that. I don't believe you.
There better not be another incident. I will take the motion under advisement.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BERMAN: Joining us now is Shira A. Scheindlin, a retired United States district judge for the Southern District of New York. Your Honor, thank you for coming in here.
Before I talk about the law, and I do want to go into the law here, I just want to ask about the performance there. Because as a layperson who, thankfully for me, hasn't been in many federal courtrooms like this -- or courtrooms like this; not federal -- I have -- I haven't seen a judge explode like that before. But how unusual is it to see that burst of emotion?
[07:35:06]
SHIRA A. SCHEINDLIN, U.S. DISTRICT JUDGE, SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK (RETIRED): OK. Actually, I don't think it's very unusual. Remember, this was done outside the presence of the jury. What would really have been bad is if he did that with the jury present. But outside, it's not unusual.
He was really angry, and judges are human and they do things like that, especially when someone does something that they think is so obviously wrong. So, I can see judges doing that.
BERMAN: So, it does happen? SCHEINDLIN: It -- outside the presence of the jury. That's the important point.
BERMAN: Outside the presence of the jury but inside the presence of the camera. The world is watching this. Does that matter?
SCHEINDLIN: No, I don't think so. I mean, he had a right to be very angry there. If he -- if you think a lawyer is crossing the line -- for example, commenting on the silence. Everybody knows that you can't say that somebody was silent. There's a right to remain silent.
So, the judge was angry. And also, the judge had previously ruled on one of the issues and the prosecutor seemed to cross that line, too. So there was a good reason to be angry.
BERMAN: We'll get to the law, I promise, but just one more time on the --
SCHEINDLIN: Sure.
BERMAN: -- emotion there.
SCHEINDLIN: Sure.
BERMAN: The jury was out of the room.
SCHEINDLIN: Correct.
BERMAN: I don't know how thick the walls are. I don't know how far away they were.
SCHEINDLIN: Oh, they don't hear.
BERMAN: They don't hear the --
SCHEINDLIN: They really don't hear.
BERMAN: And they don't hear about this? What if they either a) heard or b) hear about this?
SCHEINDLIN: OK. They didn't hear because the courtrooms are very carefully --
BERMAN: OK.
SCHEINDLIN: -- constructed for that purpose. Hearing about it -- they are instructed that they're not to read the press on it, they're not to watch T.V. And we trust that they really don't.
Now, sometimes the court will voir dire a jury and say did anybody read the paper last night? Did anybody watch the news? And sometimes a juror will admit it, and that's a problem.
BERMAN: So, it seemed to me there were two things --
SCHEINDLIN: Yes. BERMAN: -- that the judge was particularly ticked off about. Number one, when the prosecution approached that line of getting close to talking about Kyle Rittenhouse's choice to remain silent.
SCHEINDLIN: Correct.
BERMAN: And number two, where he really delved into the issue of his propensity to commit crimes.
Why are each of those issues so important for the judge?
SCHEINDLIN: OK. As I said, there's a right to remain silent. A defendant in every criminal case has that right. And the prosecutor knows they can't comment on his decision to invoke his right. So that was basic law and the prosecutor really stepped over the line and even raising that, and that judge was shocked.
On the other issue the court had already ruled that certain similar act evidence, we call it, could not come in, so he had a prior ruling. If that prosecutor felt the door was open because of the direct examination of Rittenhouse then he should have asked to see the court without the jury present. He should have said "Your honor, may I see you at the sidebar?" The judge would have excused the jury and would have discussed that question.
But he didn't. He just went for it after the judge had already ruled. And, of course, the defense objected, correctly so.
BERMAN: The defense suggested it might ask for a mistrial with prejudice --
SCHEINDLIN: Prejudice.
BERMAN: -- which would mean this thing is gone --
SCHEINDLIN: Correct.
BERMAN: -- forever.
SCHEINDLIN: Correct.
BERMAN: So, how will the judge approach this?
SCHEINDLIN: I think the judge will be very, very reluctant to grant a mistrial with prejudice which, as you said, invokes double jeopardy and the case would be over. It could not be retried.
He won't do that. I'm sure he won't do that. I could be wrong but I really don't think he'll do that. I think he'll let this case go to the jury and he'll take a verdict. But he could if he wanted to because the prosecutor really crossed the line. But I don't think he will.
BERMAN: Based on -- last question. Based on what --
SCHEINDLIN: Sure. BERMAN: -- we saw with his emotion and the points he's made, what are you expecting when he does the jury instructions?
SCHEINDLIN: I don't think -- I think this will pass and I don't think it'll be mentioned in the jury instruction. He's not going to add, by the way, you should ignore the prosecutor's questions. That would be unlikely in the extreme. I think there's enough meat here for the jury as it is on the self-defense issue.
BERMAN: Your Honor, now that I know you're OK with that level of emotion I'll be much more gentle in my questions. Thank you for coming in, Your Honor. I appreciate it.
SCHEINDLIN: Thank you.
BERMAN: All right. We mentioned Chris Christie and Donald Trump fighting with each other. Well, now we have new CNN reporting just in on why Trump's being told he may not be wanted on the campaign trail.
KEILAR: And it seems to be almost like a Tanya Harding-Nancy Kerrigan situation all over again. Did a French soccer player plot an attack on her own teammate?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[07:43:45]
KEILAR: Some new CNN reporting just in on Republicans' plans for former President Trump ahead of next year's midterms. Instead of making appearances with candidates, allies say that he could be urged to stay away.
CNN's Gabby Orr is joining us with more. OK, well, this is their plan, anyway. What is it?
GABBY ORR, CNN REPORTER: Yes. I mean, let me start off by saying that we are going to see Donald Trump on the campaign trail next year. The majority of Republican candidates running will want him to come to their districts or to their states. But after last week's victory for Glenn Youngkin in Virginia, some of his aides and allies I'm told are reassessing whether he actually needs to go to a lot of these races and in some cases, whether Republicans will want him to come to their districts.
You know, he did now show up once in Virginia. He did a tele-rally the night before the election but he didn't physically come to the state and campaign beside Glenn Youngkin. And that was a strategic decision on both ends. It would have probably done a little bit of harm to Glenn Youngkin if he had shown up with suburban women and voters who did swing from Biden to Youngkin.
And so, they are trying to replicate that in certain states where you do have big suburban populations that did not support Donald Trump in 2020. Where you have female voters who are going to be paying attention to whether or not candidates are cozying up to Donald Trump.
[07:45:03]
It's a strategy that is easier said than done because of who Donald Trump is. But there are -- there's definitely talk among his aides that this is something they might want to try in a few different places.
KEILAR: But that is kind of in a -- kind of -- it is -- it's an affront to who Donald Trump is. So, is he really open to doing that?
ORR: Right. It assumes a great deal of -- a great deal of deference from somebody who is notoriously prideful and wants to be out on the campaign trail, and assumes that every single Republican is going to be making the trek to Mar-a-Lago begging on their hands and knees for him to come help.
That doesn't seem like it's going to be the case next year. There might be some Republicans who take a step back and say hey, I don't think I want the former president to be in my district. It could actually hurt. I might want his endorsement but I don't want him physically showing up. And that's kind of a strategy the aides are talking about here but it will take a lot of convincing to get the former president on board with something like that.
KEILAR: Gabby, great reporting, and thank you. This is your first appearance back from maternity leave, so congratulations to you guys --
ORR: Thank you so much. It's good to be back.
KEILAR: -- on a beautiful baby girl. Thank you.
ORR: Thank you.
BERMAN: All right, wait until you hear this story. A pro soccer player in France under arrest, charged in connection with a violent attack on one of her own teammates. The case understandably is drawing comparisons to the attack plot about U.S. figure skater Tonya Harding's ex-husband on her teammate Nancy Kerrigan before the 1994 Winter Olympics.
CNN's Cyril Vanier live in Paris. I couldn't believe this when I read this yesterday, Cyril.
CYRIL VANIER, CNN ANCHOR: No, absolutely same here. This wasn't on my radar at all and my jaw dropped, John when I saw the details of this story. Bear in mind there are still a lot of answers -- the main answers, in fact, that we do not have, but very serious questions at this stage have already been raised.
So, the story starts last Thursday and this is all the women's soccer team of Paris Saint-Germain, the famed football club. The story starts last Thursday when Kheira Hamraoui, who is the starting midfielder for PSG, is dropped off at her house by her teammate Aminata Diallo, also a midfielder for the same team. And as they near the house she is pulled out of the car by masked assailants who beat her on her legs with an iron bar and then fled -- and they haven't been found. Now, Hamraoui then missed the following game -- a Champions League
game.
And the story took a darker twist yesterday morning when early in the day Aminata Diallo, the person who had been driving her to her house -- her teammate -- and her friends, by the way, because they are said to be friends. They have posted pictures of themselves together on holiday on Instagram and they're said to have a close relationship.
Well, Diallo was pulled in by police -- arrested, pulled in for questioning. She is still undergoing questioning as we speak until at least tomorrow. According to the French sports daily L'Equipe, which first reported on this story, she has denied being involved in the incident.
We don't know what evidence if any the police are working on. We don't know what they have against Diallo. But it's impossible not to at least notice the anecdotal evidence, John, that there is some objective competition between the two for playing time and for playing opportunity.
BERMAN: I will be watching this very closely. Cyril, please keep me posted. Appreciate it.
So, new details in the drama inside the Kyle Rittenhouse courtroom. How will the prosecution try to move on from these moments yesterday?
KEILAR: And will the historic surge in inflation hurt Democrats in the 2022 midterms? Former Democratic Sen. Al Franken joining us next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[07:53:03]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: But consumer prices remain too high. It tells us the American people amidst this economic crisis and recovery is showing strong results, but not to them. They're still looking out there. Everything from a gallon of gas to a loaf of bread costs more. And it's worrisome even though wages are going up.
We still face challenges and we have to tackle them. We have to tackle them head-on.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BERMAN: President Biden under pressure with inflation in the U.S. rising at a rate not seen in three decades.
Joining us now, former Democratic senator and the host of "The Al Franken Podcast," Al Franken. Senator, thanks so much for being with us.
AL FRANKEN (D), FORMER MINNESOTA SENATOR, HOST, "THE AL FRANKEN PODCAST": Thanks for having me. BERMAN: You never had to deal with inflation as a politician. The last time we've seen these numbers was 1990. It was a long time. Prices when they rise, it really does hit people.
So, what kind of challenge does that pose politically?
FRANKEN: Yes, it hits different people differently but no one likes it. No one likes to pay six percent higher for a turkey or more.
And what happened here was that we had this shutdown, basically, because this is a pandemic. This is a pandemic.
Oil went down to nothing. It cost more to store oil than sell it. So, there was no new oil being produced. Now there's demand because people are starting to work and our supply chains are -- look -- so, there's an explanation for this. That doesn't help someone who is buying stuff unless they're getting a higher-paid job. And even then, you don't like paying for it.
BERMAN: That's the thing, right? There is an explanation but --
FRANKEN: Yes.
BERMAN: -- you're paying more, you know you're paying more, and you're upset you're paying more.
FRANKEN: Exactly. And hopefully, we'll see some progress on this. But partially, we didn't see the progress on the pandemic that we had hoped to see.
[07:55:01]
Remember back -- you know, your July Fourth -- we're going to be free. But when the variant hit -- when the Delta variant hit that slowed things down. We're seeing spikes in COVID still. So, we don't know exactly when the end of this is going to be.
Now, there are pieces of Build Back Better that will make life cheaper. Insulin will be cheaper. There -- childcare will be cheaper. There are -- if you're getting Medicaid through the new Medicaid program, that'll be cheaper.
BERMAN: If you are the president or a governor, or someone, how do you prove to voters that you're dealing with inflation or that you're concerned about it, or you're addressing it?
FRANKEN: Well, I think the proof is in the pudding. You can say all you like, I'm on it, and this is what we're doing. But until people see it go down from 6.2 percent they're just -- it doesn't matter what you're saying. I mean, of course, you're going to say I'm concerned.
BERMAN: Sean Patrick Maloney, who runs the House Democratic Campaign Committee, says he wants to see President Biden out there around the country much more, touting the infrastructure bill, which will become the law. He's going to sign it on Monday. He wants to see Biden out there much more. Do you think more is good for Joe Biden?
FRANKEN: I do. I think when you have an infrastructure project that people really want -- a new -- an extension of a highway, for example.
I -- can I tell you a little story? As you know, in 2009, there was an infrastructure package voted for. I hadn't gotten there when it was voted on. But I went to a groundbreaking months later for an extension of Highway 610 in the western suburbs of Minneapolis.
Amy Klobuchar was there. I was there. And for some reason, Erik Paulsen, the Republican congressman who had voted against it decided to be there. So, Amy talked.
When I talked, I said well, I don't deserve credit for this. I didn't -- I wasn't -- I got there too late. I didn't vote. So why don't we -- let's just give credit to all the members of Congress who voted for it. There's Amy, and oh -- Erik didn't vote for it -- hmm. Anyway, Amy.
And you're going to see Republicans who are condemning the 13 that gave Biden a victory and they're going to be out there at groundbreakings. That's what I want to see.
BERMAN: On the issue of inflation -- on the next step of what the president wants to get done here -- the Build Back Better agenda -- Joe Manchin has been very concerned publicly about inflation.
And yesterday when these new numbers came out, he said, "By all accounts, the threat posed by record inflation to the American people is not transitory and is instead getting worse. From the grocery store to the gas pump, Americans know the inflation tax is real and D.C. can no longer ignore the economic pain Americans feel every day."
Do you think Manchin will be there when Joe Biden wants him to be there for the rest of this agenda, or does this mean that Manchin is getting cold feet?
FRANKEN: He's -- you know, he blows hot and cold, obviously -- or mainly, cold. But I think he will be there. And yes, all that money in infrastructure maybe increases inflation -- but, boy, it creates a lot of jobs for a lot of people who are doing much, much better. And, by the way, at the end of the -- at the end of that, we have infrastructure for five, 10, 30 years that will make our economy work much, much better.
BERMAN: I want to ask you to weigh in on Republican politics for a change here. Former New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie is now, in a way, taking on former president Donald Trump. Christie is suggesting the Republicans need to look forward and not talk about the last election. Trump went after Christie, saying his approval was nine percent. And this is how Chris Christie responded on camera to that -- listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRISTIE: I'm not going to get into a back-and-forth with Donald Trump, but what I will say is this. When I ran for reelection in 2013, I got 60 percent of the vote. When he ran for reelection, he lost to Joe Biden. I'm happy to have that comparison stand up because that's the one that really matters.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BERMAN: What interests me about this is the possible significance of Republicans thinking they don't need Donald Trump anymore.
FRANKEN: There's going to be an interesting thing, as you saw in Virginia, of come here, go away. Come here, go away. And so, Youngkin played it really well. And I think you're going to see a lot of dancing by Republican candidates, depending on what state they're in, what district they're in.
And I think that Chris Christie wants to be president and has wanted to be president for a while, and that seems to be an indication that he's looking for any opening he can find.
BERMAN: Al Franken, great to see you. Thanks for coming in.
FRANKEN: Good to see you, sir.
BERMAN: Be well.
