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New Day

Scientists Race to Find Out If New Variant Evades Vaccines; Markets Face Uncertain Week After Being Rattled By Variant; Fox, GOP Lawmakers Suggest Democrats Invented New COVID Variant. Aired 7-7:30a ET

Aired November 29, 2021 - 07:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[07:00:00]

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN NEW DAY: What did he say to them?

ALLYSON FINCH WILSON, CONCERNED OVER DAVE CHAPPELE VISIT TO ALMA MATER: So he -- apparently, he asked kids who, quote, had the balls to come up and talk to him about the problems they had with what he has said. And so a line of students started and, originally, my son said he didn't get in the line, but when he saw how Dave was treating the transgender kids talking over them, ridiculing the things that they were saying.

And according to my son, they were trying to wrap the criticism in respect, right? They were going up and saying, I appreciate all you've done, I respect your art. But when you say this -- and Dave would cut them off and talk over them and then make jokes about it and then say, next. And, you know, they weren't even able to get complete thoughts out, not to mention the fact that the assembly was sprung on them at the end of the day.

So, none of them knew that it was coming. I commend them in just being able to gather thoughts in that last minute when they didn't even know it was happening.

KEILAR: So, Chappelle has said, if by April those against the Chappelle Theater exceed the donations of those who are neutral or in favor, I will gladly step aside. If not, I will happily attend the naming ceremony, which, by the way, we should mention, was postponed.

But I also want to ask you about what the principal said, because she said the stories -- the source stories that have been gone viral have been inaccurate, devoid of context and neglected to include the nuances of art. As an art institution, we educate our students on the importance of media literacy and art as a free and open form of expression to both reflect and challenge society. What do you say to that?

WILSON: So, what I say to that is, first of all, she is doing, in my opinion, a horrible job of fostering the students in her care now. Her job right now is to groom and shepherd the artists in her care, not pander to one that came through 20 years ago when I finished -- well, Dave finished Duke Ellington a year before I got there. So, currently, she is basically handing the keys to the kingdom to Dave Chappelle and not listening to the students.

And it would have been okay if she had fostered a genuine space of communication between Dave and the students, the concerned students. Maybe they could have met offline and had a real conversation and then all gone into assembly together to talk to the rest of the school. Nothing like that ever happened.

And, frankly, you know, there are lots of things that could be named after Dave Chappelle at Duke Ellington, name the rehearsal studio, Studio A, the library, the cafeteria. But what the student have said, and I admittedly not all of them, but the ones who are taking a stand is the Ellington Theater is sacred space. This is where they to and put their authentic selves on the stage. And even that they are having a rough day, the Ellington Theater is always open to students. And even as a student there, I would go in after a rough day and take a minute and just have some self-reflection and a little bit of meditative time.

Who I mean, for the kids who are feeling like Dave Chappelle mocks their existence, they don't want to walk under his name to get into that theater. And it's just -- it's a really sad situation that could have been handled a lot better.

KEILAR: Allyson Finch Wilson, I want to thank you so much for being with us, and our best to your son. I hope that, you know, all of these is dealt with when it comes specifically to threats against him. I appreciate you being with us.

WILSON: Thank you.

KEILAR: New Day continues right now.

Welcome to our viewers here in the United States and around the world. It is Monday, November 29th. And I'm Brianna Keilar with John Berman.

This morning, it's really hard to tell which is spreading faster, the omicron variant or the fear of it. There's so much that we don't know at this point. Is it more contagious, is it more deadly, can it evade vaccines? Simply, we don't know. And it could be two weeks before we do know just how big a problem this new COVID variant will be.

Now, overnight, the United States banned entry for noncitizen travelers from South Africa and seven neighboring countries of South Africa. At least 44 other countries are also imposing these travel restrictions. And a growing number of countries are now reporting confirmed case of the omicron variant, including Canada.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN NEW DAY: The variant has not been detected in the United States yet but health officials say it may already be here. On Sunday, President Biden met with Dr. Anthony Fauci and other members of the White House COVID team releasing this photo in a statement that reads, Dr. Fauci informed the president that while it will take approximately two more weeks to have more definitive information on the transmissibility, severity and other characteristics of the variant, he continues to believe that existing vaccines are likely to provide a degree of protection against severe case of COVID. The president will provide an update on the variant to the country later this morning.

I want to bring in Chief Medical Correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta.

[07:05:00]

Sanjay, I went home from work Thursday morning, and this didn't exist. We were all ignorant to this. By Thursday night, the fears had really taken over the world. So, what do we know?

SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. So, I mean, there are several things that we do know about this, and this is all very recent. And there are several things that we don't know. So, let me talk about what we already know. We have been tracking this for just a little bit of time now.

First of all, it was first described in Botswana. And this was back on November 9th. That was the first sample that was collected at the time on November 9th, so, again, just two or three weeks here that we're talking about. It's now been detected in all of these other countries that you see there on the screen.

And it has all of these mutations. These mutations are important because these are a consolation of mutations that they have seen in other variants. So, for example, beta, which was another variant, that was of concern several months ago because it seemed to have mutations that suggested it might start to escape immunity.

This has some of those mutations. It also has some of the mutations of delta, which made it more transmissible. So when you mixed these mutations together, what happens? Does it start to adopt all of those characteristics, some, none, that's what we don't know yet.

Here's a bunch of other things that we don't know, the big things, just how transmissible is it? I heard Dr. Karim, you know, earlier on your program talking about this. It does appear to be more transmissible because so many more people have become infected and the slope is just steeper than they have seen with delta, at least in that small area.

How sick does it make people? I'm going to come back to this in a second. Again, we don't know this for sure but I'm going to assure you how their tracking some of these data.

Will the current vaccines work against it? There does appear to be some benefit of that. But how about if you have been infected in the past and you have infection-acquired immunity? Well, we don't know that but there is some concern that that previous immunity may not be as effective here.

I want to show you something. I was pulling some of the raw data out of this particular province where this seems to have originated. And just looking at hospitalizations over there, over the past three weeks, and you can see hospitalizations have gone up. This is sort of their late spring season right now. So, this is less likely to be flu. Could this be an indicator of what is starting to happen? We don't know. Again, but this -- that's the sort of data they're tracking to see, look, this is here. Is it making more -- people more sick? Let's track hospitalizations.

KEILAR: And also the -- you know when you're looking, Sanjay, at vaccination rate in South Africa and surrounding countries, that's not helping for sure.

GUPTA: Right. No. I think that's very clear. When you look at the vaccination rates, you can sort of align them with how quickly this sort of variant starts to grow. The big question though, as we have talked about almost since the beginning with these vaccinations in terms of preventing infection versus preventing serious disease, we know that they can be very good at preventing serious disease across the board, and that's likely to be the case here as well.

There is something known as the cushion effect. I just want to -- I put this full screen together for you, guys. I want you to look at this. When we talk about escaping immunity, people think, well, is the virus sort of getting around the antibodies?

The way to more think about this is that these -- vaccines provide this sort of cushion effect of antibodies, way more than you really need. So, against the current virus, it is one to a thousand cushion effect with this antibodies. With the mutated virus, it may start to drop off. And if it is dropping off, that's the first indicator of this sort of escape immunity.

Again, we don't know that for sure but that's going to be a big concern. And that does make a case, a stronger case even for boosters. You want to get more of that cushion effect so that no matter the variant it can provide you some of that protection.

BERMAN: Sanjay, you said you were going to come back to the issue of is it making people more sick. And we talked to the professor in South Africa. He said right now, no, but it's too early to tell.

GUPTA: Yes. I think that's the case. I mean, I want -- let's put that up that hospitalization graphic again. You know, this is that particular province that we're tracking very carefully. And if you look at hospitalization rates over the last three weeks, they have gone up. They have been particularly high. They have been much higher at other points in the pandemic. But they have been going up.

And, again, this is their late spring over there. So, you know, we know, that hospitalization severe illness, tends to be lagging indicator, two to three weeks. I want to see -- I'm going to be watching that very closely to see if those numbers continue to go up.

Again, we're not even sure that that's directly related to this particular variant, omicron, but it might be. And I think that's how granular they need to get when looking at the data to try and figure out is this, in fact, causing more severe illness.

BERMAN: A lot of might to maybes right now, which is just the way it is. It's science. We need to wait and see until we learn more about this, and I know it will take a few weeks.

[07:10:02]

In the meantime, Sanjay, you and I know we'll hear from the president later today, they're going to say the vaccines and boosters are the best thing we can do if this does becomes more serious. Thank you so much, Sanjay.

GUPTA: Got it.

BERMAN: The markets and businesses already reacting to this. What will this mean for the economic recovery? CNN Chief Business Correspondent Christine Romans joins us now. Romans?

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CHIEF BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: Let's just say mights and maybes are not good when you are talking about investing, right? Uncertainty is the enemy of markets and omicron certainly of that uncertainty ricocheted around the world.

Investors reached, I think, for the worst-case scenario, Friday, visions of returning to this March 20th defensive crouch, and that's why the Dow tumbled 905 point, the worst day in more than a year, big losses for the Nasdaq and the S&P 500.

Oil prices, John, collapsed on the fear that the global economy will slow. But this morning, a feeling that might have been an overreaction. Markets do tend to overreact. And at Wall Street, you can see Asian shares closed lower, but Europe has bounced back this morning and you got slight games in stock index futures.

Okay, so, two big questions that will take time to answer, does the new strain evade vaccines and immunity from prior infections, as Sanjay said, and is it more transmissible. It could take a couple of weeks to start answering those questions.

So, in the meantime, it's a reminder this is still a COVID economy and there is a scramble on to understand how this could alter what is, by all accounts, a strong finish to the U.S. economy this year. Does omicron mean the Fed, John, doesn't taper as soon as planned? Does it delay the next interest rate hike to cool off a strong U.S. economy? Do crashing oil price put an end to the 30-year-high inflation trend? Could it be disinflationary?

Important context here, even with Friday sell-off, the S&P 500, John, is up 22 percent this year. It is double where it was spring 2020. And the reason stocks are up so much, companies are making money. The economy is heading into the winter pretty strong. Home prices are at record highs, wages are rising.

Before Friday, inflation was the biggest worry, then came omicron. So, we'll have to see where this goes. We've got a couple of weeks of watching and waiting here, I would say, John.

BERMAN: Yes. It's going to be two weeks. It's going to be tough on the markets but everyone is just going to have to wait and watch this. Christine Romans, thank you so much. Look, with so many questions right now, with the science still at work here, the last thing anyone needs is politics, yet some still insisting on injecting it here.

Plus, why Ukraine's president said he could be the target of a coup attempt any day now.

KEILAR: And the tragic death of a college student in what is being described as an underground Fight Club.

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[07:15:00]

BERMAN: The nation will hear from President Biden today on the administration's planned response to the omicron variant. It will take a couple of weeks to figure out how much of a threat this thing really is. And the last thing anyone needs now is mindless politicking. But has that stopped people? Of course, not.

Texas Congressman Ronny Jackson, a Republican, labeled omicron the midterm election variant and claimed Democrats are using it to win elections. And on Fox T.V., in reference to Secretary of Transportation Pete Buttigieg and his comments the U.S. needs to tackle the pandemic before it can solve the supply chain problem, listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And now we see this. So, that is the answer, is more lockdowns, more lockdowns, more fear. And, therefore, he doesn't have to do his job of fixing the supply chain. So, we will just keep this whole thing going.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's always a new variant.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You can count on a new variant about every October, every two years.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: I'm joined by S.E. Cupp and John Avlon. S.E. is a CNN Political Commentator, John, a CNN Senior Political Analyst and Author of Washington's Farewell and Wing Nuts.

How about hat for sober analysis, S.E.?

S.E. CUPP, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, listen, Fox is a drug, man, that doesn't happen overnight where three people who are intelligent, who have been around a while, who have done this for a while, I know there's people, decide, well, I have a big platform, I'm going to say a very dangerous new variant, 9,000 miles away --

BERMAN: Potentially new variant.

CUPP: -- potentially dangerous variant 9,000 miles away, is the invention of an American political party that is somehow convinced the host country, the WHO, NIH and all the other countries doing lockdowns, to believe in this, which sounds bonkers. It sounds bonkers. And yet all three of them kind of in unison, oh, yes, just cavalierly joking that this is probably a political invention.

It is irresponsible, but that's the floor. I think -- I mean, that's evil. That is evil, to get up and tell your viewers, don't worry about it, it's probably just made up, and so don't believe any of the other science, don't believe about vaccines or boosters or anything else because it's probably just Democrats. I don't know another word for that.

JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: It is certainly beyond cynical against the backdrop of three-quarters of a million Americans dead, and a lot of these folks do know better, but they are playing to the cheap seats, they're playing to the sea suites.

[07:20:02]

There are two scenarios here.

But, look, you've got something like Dr. Ronny Jackson, who, one day, will also figure out what happened to that cap, who is a doctor, who's the one saying this is a midterm election variant.

Pandemics don't care about politics. We should that by now. So, let's have more of an actual fact-based information, which involves communicating like adults and not just trying to scare the hell out of everybody and find partisan advantage in the (INAUDIBLE).

BERMAN: It's also absurd to think that any Democrat would think this helps them. It just -- I mean, that in and of itself is ridiculous. The other thing is this is going to be about science. Either this is a real, huge problem or it's not. Let's hope it's not, but let's not spread lies while we're waiting.

CUPP: Well, John knows this as well as anyone. There used to be moments of over the past 100 years, very intellectually rigorous debate within the conservative movement, on the rise of neo- conservativism, for example, people like Irving Kristol and Ayn Rand, Barry Goldwater having really interesting conversations about what the movement is.

The project of the Republican Party today is real simple. It's dumb in its simplicity. It's two parts. Ready? Part one, tell people they are aggrieved. They might not know it, but they are aggrieved. Part two, tell them who is to blame. So, Anthony Fauci is to blame. Big Bird is to blame. Ilhan Omar is to blame. Democrats are to blame. You might think you are happy but you're not. You're aggrieved. And here's who is responsible. That's the only project. And it keeps repeating and repeating and repeating. And it's working in condensing the base. It's not growing the base but it's certainly making them more rabid and loyal and susceptible to nonsense like that.

AVLON: Sure, because you keep people addicted to anxiety and anger. And, look, I mean, that project goes back to the southern strategy too, so I don't think we would be Pollyannish about the past. But at least there was a degree of civility and substance. That's out the window right now.

So, I think what we need to stay focused on is, look, you mentioned the fact that we don't know what this new variant holds. We do know that scientists seem concerned, it seems to be high degree of communicability. We don't know the severity. And we live in an interconnected world. And so the impulse to project your fears or to polarize for profit off this stuff is almost irresistible to people who have a financial interest, frankly, in this polarization. And it is difficult to combat that kind of onslaught, this disinformation industrial complex that exists. But that's what responsible actors and journalists need to do. And means that we're going to have to wait and see without freaking out.

BERMAN: Well, that's a challenge, right? I do think the lies and the idiocy aside, which is what all that is, I think it's a challenge for this White House today. How do you tell the American people we're going to have to wait two weeks to find out if this is nothing to worry about or if this is going to be a real problem that evades vaccines? That's a tough sell. That's a pretty high bar, yes?

AVLON: It is, but here's a crazy idea. Presidents of the United States should talk to their fellow citizens like reasonable adults, right? You know what, it might be lost on a lot of folks. It may be easier to try to just play the base politics and scare the hell out of everybody and try to find someone, as he says, you're aggrieved and here's who to blame, the us versus them game.

But actually taking the risk of talking people eye-to-eye as opposed to talking down to them might actually work. And that's what Joe Biden needs to do, understanding, and the administration needs to understand that, first of all, they are facing a huge disinformation amplification machine that has -- are dominated by bad faith actors who profit off this stuff. So, they need to be at least as loud and as clear, but actually putting the focus on facts rather than fears.

CUPP: But there has been this idea in the Biden administration to kind of ignore the crazy, not to feed into it. I think Biden needs to call this out and say, what you just heard on Fox is insane. It makes no sense. It's bonkers. And take it head on instead of just pretending it's out there in the basement. It is not. It is above ground.

BERMAN: Can I ask then what you make of this back and forth between Dr. Anthony Fauci and Ted Cruz or Ted Cruz and Dr. Anthony Fauci, because I want to know if this is what you're talking about. Let's play some of this exchange. It was on CBS.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Senator Cruz told the attorney general you should be prosecuted.

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: Yes. I have to laugh at that. I should be prosecuted? What happened on January 6th, Senator?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you think that this is about making you a scapegoat to deflect from President Trump?

FAUCI: Of course. You have to be asleep not to figure that one out.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUPP: I mean, it is a shame that a public health official is put in a position to have to kind of take on that kind of criticism, but absolutely. I mean, Tony Fauci is not above reproach. He is public official and he should be held accountable for the things he does and says. That aside, that's not what Republicans are doing. That's not what Ted Cruz and Rand Paul are doing. They're not holding him accountable.

[07:25:00]

They're making him the avatar of all of your grievances because nothing matters and they don't have to prove it. So that Tony Fauci is getting on television and saying that's crazy. And look in the mirror, Senator Cruz. I think you need more of that.

AVLON: Yes. You've got to call it out. You've got to play offense with facts. The demonization of Anthony Faucim, which has become a cotton gin (ph) industry, has been from the beginning about deflecting away from Donald Trump's horrific mismanagement of COVID from the beginning. And so you see people fundraising off of demonizing Anthony Fauci and all sorts of conspiracy theories emerging.

I think the point is, yes, you do need to call it out. You do need to be clear. You need to make sure you are not responding with ad hominem with ad hominem but root it in real facts.

And then you really need to take the additional leap, which is to say, look, we are going to call this stuff out, we are going to talk to you like adults, we're going to use statistics and science, realizing that some folks may be deep in the grip of this disinformation industrial complex. But we're not going to let that tail wag the dog in the national conversation right now.

And we can have real criticisms that are substantive and fact-based without following into this partisan nonsense that makes all insane in addition to the virus we're dealing with.

BERMAN: John, S.E., thank you both very much for that.

Ukraine now bracing for a possible coup and a Russian invasion, yes, that's a warning from the Ukrainian leader himself. The former U.S. ambassador to Ukraine who testified in the first impeachment trial joins us next.

KEILAR: Plus, the moment a stowaway is discovered in a Miami plane's landing gear.

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