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New Day

Honolulu Shuts Down Largest Water Source Over Contamination; Leaker Reality Winner Speaks Out: "I Am Not A Traitor"; School Shooting Suspect, Parents, Under Suicide Watch. Aired 7:30-8a ET

Aired December 06, 2021 - 07:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[07:30:00]

DANA MILBANK, COLUMNIST, THE WASHINGTON POST: So you'd get the extremes and also all of us in the middle to the greatest extent possible. It's kind of what you would expect.

It started out providing fairly favorable coverage the first few months of the year. The last four months, however, Biden has been at where Donald Trump was or lower than where Donald Trump is in terms of media sentiment, meaning it's not biased; it's the actual words we're using. So we are as negative as a collective media on Joe Biden if not more so than we were to Donald Trump at a time when he was trying to overthrow democracy, and I think that's a tremendous indictment of our whole industry.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: Can I challenge you on the word "we" though because these are such disparate media outlets, right? You're lumping "The Washington Post," your employer, in with, say, Breitbart or this -- or this agency that is doing this research is.

Can you tell us the effect of that because I would look at, like, a Breitbart and say they do so -- they did so much positive coverage Trump, so much negative coverage of Biden, and that kind of brings it -- the difference there?

MILBANK: And it would. What it -- what's actually interesting is you would think that under Biden there'd be a corresponding effect that sort of the left-wing media would be very favorable to Biden --

KEILAR: That's right.

MILBANK: -- but it doesn't actually happen. The left-wing media is tough on him. He's too progressive. He's not progressive enough.

So the effect is he has no real support from the equivalence of the Breitbart on the left to the extent there are equivalents there. So, if anything, it exaggerates the effect.

But the bulk of these are mainstream newspapers, media websites. So I think it does give -- you know, it's not foolproof but it gives a pretty good number and we never had such a number before. But now we can study these things.

KEILAR: It was pretty fascinating to look -- like, when you were talking about "The Huffington Post" and you provide the data here. So if someone's like really into Excel spreadsheets, you're going to love this, right? Just get into this stuff. But it shows you that "The Huffington Post" is perhaps using a critical eye from their political perspective and that you have people on the right just kind of going to town on Biden.

But I wonder when it comes to reputable news organizations, what I seem to see in the data was a lot of coverage where actually, they were more positive of Biden until it got to the Afghanistan drawdown.

MILBANK: Yes, August was definitely the turning point. That's when I think Biden's coverage was more favorable than Trump before then. There was that honeymoon. But it happened in August.

But even as things have generally improved since then the coverage has not improved. It's slightly up from where it was but it's still emphatically negative on Biden. And, you know, again, at the same level or at times, even more than we were against Trump, and I think that's the key.

KEILAR: So if you're a news consumer and you consider yourself a news consumer of reputable news organizations, what do you think the takeaway is here?

MILBANK: Well, I think -- I look at it from the point of view of the news producers and I think we really need to do some soul searching and think about what it is we're delivering to people. And I think the media consumer may -- you know, should look at what we're saying with a grain of salt, knowing that it's -- we see it as our job to be negative, to be adversarial. But there's a real problem when we're being just as adversarial because a guy didn't pass a bill as we are when a guy is trying to overthrow democracy.

KEILAR: But if you're looking at the numbers of, say, "The Washington Post" or of CNN -- the ones that I saw -- if you're going to hang your hat on what this agency is doing here. They're actually -- they weren't more negative --

MILBANK: Yes.

KEILAR: -- of Trump, right? And we're -- just to be clear, we're looking at this last year compared to the last year --

MILBANK: Yes.

KEILAR: -- of the Trump presidency, which was a terrible, terrible year.

MILBANK: Right, right.

KEILAR: So, I mean, if you're looking at those news organizations there isn't really a sign that things are more negative.

MILBANK: Well, there are in -- if you look at them overall -- even the mainstream ones. So you can -- you can pick one or two and that is true. I think the "Post" and CNN have done better than the average on this. But I don't think it's anything we should all be celebrating because I mean we are the media as a whole.

Look, I think the coverage should be very much lopsided the other way. Here's somebody who is trying to restore the organs of democracy and he's getting beaten up just as much as the guy who was tearing it all down.

KEILAR: But it's not the job of the reputable news outlets to compensate for, like, the crap that a Breitbart puts out.

MILBANK: Absolutely not. We can't -- we can't do that. The best we can do is each of us do our jobs in the best way we know how. That's what I'm trying to do and I know that's what you're doing here.

KEILAR: I sort of -- I looked at your -- this analysis here and I thought if you consider that this is one big atmosphere that all of these media outlets -- and I don't mean news outlets -- I'm saying media because some of these were not news outlets.

[07:35:00]

MILBANK: Right. It's a loose -- a loose definition.

KEILAR: Right. But if you consider, like, what all of these outlets are breathing into the atmosphere, right -- say, negative or positive, you get a sense because a lot of people do consume Breitbart as if it's news, even if it isn't. So this just sort of speaks to I think what is out there for consumption and it is negative if you're looking at these -- this analysis.

MILBANK: Right, and because I think it was 200,000 articles -- the A.I. can do this in a way that human beings can't so it tells us something that we may not even recognize about ourselves. It's actually studying the adjectives and where they're placed in stories. So it's not our bias; it's our actual sentiment -- the words we're actually using. So it is something we need to be conscious of.

KEILAR: Real quick before I let you go how much do you trust this A.I.?

MILBANK: I trust it somewhat. We don't have anything else that's ever been able to quantify this. So it's better than having no numbers at all.

KEILAR: All right. It's fascinating. Look at the Excel spreadsheets, I say to people out there, because that's where it gets really interesting.

Dana, thank you.

MILBANK: Thank you.

KEILAR: Just ahead, we're going to hear from the prosecutor who charged the parents of a Michigan teen accused of killing four of his high school classmates.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: An NSA leaker reality winner speaks out in her first interview since getting out of prison.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

REALITY WINNER, FORMER NSA CONTRACTOR: I am not a traitor.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:40:33]

BERMAN: This morning, a water crisis in Hawaii. The well that delivers 20 percent of Honolulu's water supply has been shut down to protect against contamination. The Navy confirms tests last week found petroleum in its Red Hill well. The military is now offering alternative housing to more than 700 service members and civilian employees living near Joint Base Pearl Harbor-Hickam.

Natasha Chen has the very latest here -- Natasha.

NATASHA CHEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, John, last night at a town hall, the secretary of the Navy, along with other top officials, heard complaints from a lot of people affected by this contamination.

Really, angry, emotional testimony from some people reporting horrible physical symptoms. That they've been feeling sick, their children have been throwing up, their pets have been feeling sick in the last few weeks or even longer, complaining of some fuel or gasoline-smelling odor in the -- in the water that they're using. So this has been a very emotional process for them.

Here is one woman who was frustrated at the Navy's response to all of this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is the Navy. This is not my teenager that just took groceries to the store for me. No. This is the Navy.

Like I said before and I'm going to say it again, we got it -- things happen. But the answer that you guys gave us, it was ridiculous. The answer that you continue giving us is ridiculous.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHEN: There were people frustrated that there wasn't even clear communication about which housing communities were affected by the contamination. And as you mentioned, about 700 families, according to the Navy, are in temporary housing right now.

Just to remind folks, the Navy shut down the Red Hill well a week ago Sunday and by Thursday, announced to the public that they had found contamination of petroleum in the well. In the -- in the course of last week, the local board of water supply, then out of caution, shut down its largest water source on Oahu that provides water for 20 percent of Honolulu. So this is really a true headache for that community right now and

people are trying to figure out how far back this goes, John.

BERMAN: This has got to be really, really difficult for the families there.

Natasha Chen, thank you very much.

CHEN: Thank you.

KEILAR: Reality Winner is speaking out for the first time in a new interview. She is the former NSA contractor who did prison time for leaking classified documents on Russian interference in the 2016 election.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WINNER: I am not a traitor. I am not a spy. I am somebody who only acted out of love for what this country stands for.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: CNN's Katie Bo Lillis is with us now on this story. It's very interesting to hear her speak. What else did she say?

KATIE BO LILLIS, CNN REPORTER: Yes. So, I mean, look, Brianna, the Reality Winner case has been controversial from the beginning, right? Like, she's this -- she's this NSA contractor, she's this former Air Force linguist.

She runs across this classified document that shows Russian election interference attempts -- and this is in 2017. She decides the public is being lied to, prints this document out, mails it to a -- mails it to a journalist, and she gets -- she gets caught.

There's no question that she has ended up serving one of the stiffest penalties ever handed down for leaking classified information. She's wound up serving now four years -- she's out now, obviously -- which is unquestionably the longest penalty ever given to a civilian for this particular crime.

If you talk to intelligence professionals, they're going to say look, no matter how just her cause, if we believe that the U.S. government has the right and has the authority to keep something secret, then we can't have every government contractor and every individual employee making a decision for themselves about what information that they're going to release to the public.

But in Reality Winner's own words -- what we've now heard -- she believed that she was acting out of patriotism -- out of -- out of love for the country. And what's more, she knew the risk. She knew that she was breaking the law and she chose to take that risk anyway and paid a stiff price for it.

So if you take a listen to what she has to say.

KEILAR: Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SCOTT PELLEY, CBS NEWS CORRESPONDENT, "60 MINUTES": You knew it was stamped top secret? You knew what that meant.

WINNER: I knew that. I knew it was secret. But I also knew that I had pledged service to the American people and at that point in time it felt like they were being led astray.

[07:45:06]

I thought this was the truth but also did not betray our sources and methods. Did not cause damage. Did not put lives on the line. It only filled in a question mark that was tearing our country in half in May 2017. And that I meant no harm.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: She felt Americans needed to know, but that's not her decision to make.

LILLIS: No, and that's -- and that's certainly I think what you would hear from intelligence professionals who say that look, this is -- there's a reason we have a higher classification body to make that decision as a government -- as a whole.

But, of course, her advocates would say she suffered grievous harm and was providing a warning to election officials at the state and local level at a time that she and others felt the federal government was moving too slowly to alert them to the threat from Russian hackers.

And she did, of course -- we heard in this interview -- have a terrible time in prison -- not that anybody has a great time in prison. But she's in there during COVID. Obviously, there were deaths at the prison that she was -- that she -- where she was held. And she describes a really harrowing fight with depression to include self- harm and thoughts of suicide and struggles with an eating disorder.

And I think one of the things that you're -- and an addiction to drugs, of course, as well. And I think one of the things that you're going to see here in the coming days is kind of a rekindling of coals for a pardon for her. I think that's pretty unlikely but we'll watch and see.

KEILAR: I will tell you, the more you dig into her case the more fascinating it really is.

Katie, thank you for sharing this with us -- appreciate it.

LILLIS: My pleasure.

KEILAR: A chilling scene at the Lincoln Memorial -- white nationalists marching for what they're calling a mission to reclaim America.

BERMAN: And Donald Trump's former chief of staff trying to claim executive privilege for stuff he just put in his book.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:51:08]

BERMAN: In a new memoir set to be released this week, Donald Trump's former chief of staff, Mark Meadows, describes work-related conversations with Trump from his time at the White House, including private discussions about the elections and efforts to find voter fraud. So why is this important? Well, Meadows previously told the House Select Committee investigating the January sixth insurrection that conversations like these are shielded by executive privilege.

This is what committee member Adam Schiff had to say about that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. ADAM SCHIFF (D-CA): If he's written anything about January sixth -- and it's hard to imagine him writing a book and not writing about January sixth -- then he clearly is waiving any claim he has to keep confidential his communications with the former president to what happened in the White House. After all, if he can say it in a book, why can't he say it before Congress?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: Here with me, Elie Honig, CNN senior legal analyst and former federal prosecutor.

Is Adam Schiff right? If Meadows writes this stuff down in a book -- even if he talks about the discussions, broadly speaking, in the book -- can you still claim privilege?

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Adam Schiff is right here, John. I guarantee you there is some staffer on the January 6th Committee who has been given a copy of Mark Meadows' book and a big fat yellow highlighter and told go through that and highlight anything Mark Meadows says about January sixth and about his conversations with Donald Trump.

The whole essence of a privilege is that it's a confidential communication between a defined group of individuals, usually two people -- attorney-client, doctor-patient, spouse and spouse. In this case, executive privilege. And if one of those people goes and talks about it publicly then it's no longer confidential and no longer privileged. That's what we mean when we talk about waivers.

So, yes, I think Adam Schiff's right here.

BERMAN: The problem though is if the committee wants to do something about it, they have to go to court?

HONIG: Yes. I mean, if Mark Meadows fights them. If Mark Meadows says no, that is privileged, then either they negotiate it somehow -- I don't know how they do that -- or they go to court. And then we're back into this sort of endless time-suck of waiting for the courts to resolve it.

BERMAN: So to the extent that Meadows doesn't want to talk --

HONIG: Yes.

BERMAN: -- is he winning here?

HONIG: I think he is because they have this deal in place now, right, and it allows both sides to save face somewhat. It allows Mark Meadows to not get indicted for contempt. It allows the committee to say well, we're getting something out of him.

But if they ask a question -- what did you talk about with Donald Trump on January sixth, how did Donald Trump react when he saw people going into the Capitol -- and Meadows says nope, executive privilege, the committee doesn't have a way to force him to get off that position, except for either charging him with contempt or going to court. Those both take time.

BERMAN: Another issue for the January 6th Committee is now we are learning that John Eastman, the lawyer who wrote the blueprint for how Mike Pence could overturn the election, and also Jeffrey Clark, the DOJ official -- they may take the fifth. What exactly, Elie, does that mean?

HONIG: So, suddenly, it's all the rage. Everyone's taking the fifth. Any person under our Bill of Rights who has any possibility of having their own testimony used to prosecute them later has the right to take the fifth. I'm actually surprised more people haven't taken the fifth in this probe.

I mean, Steve Bannon -- if he took the fifth on day one -- never could have been held in contempt because that is a lawful response to a subpoena.

People need to understand how broad the fifth is. You don't have to admit an entire crime.

I'll give you an example, John. Let's say you and I robbed a bank, OK? We'd be bad at it but let's say we did it.

The cops come to my door and knocked on my door and say do you know John Berman? Now, not a crime to know John Berman as far as I know. However, I could take the fifth there because just by admitting I know you would tie us together. That could be used against me in a prosecution of United States versus Berman and Honig for this robbery.

So it's very, very broad.

BERMAN: So Jamie Raskin says OK -- I mean, it is a constitutional right to take the fifth, but he can't claim the fifth on each and every thing that we're asking him.

HONIG: Yes. I mean, look, that is true. You can't claim the fifth on everything. What's your name? Where do you work? Where did you go to college? Where do you live? But it's really quite broad beyond that. So if Jamie Raskin thinks

it's only going to be limited to admissions of guilt it's much broader than that.

[07:55:02]

BERMAN: So this is what Donald Trump says about people take the fifth -- listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: So there are five people taking the Fifth Amendment, like you see on the mob, right? You see the mob takes the fifth. If you're innocent, why are you taking the Fifth Amendment?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HONIG: I had experience with mobsters taking the fifth.

Look, he's partially right, partially wrong there. It's not true that only guilty people take the fifth. The fifth is a broad constitutional right that we afford to guilty people, to maybe guilty people, and to innocent people alike. However, it is true -- and I think what Donald Trump's reflecting there -- that we do regard taking the fifth as an admission of sorts.

And I think it's fair game now. Look, if people want to take the fifth, that's their constitutional right. If the committee wants to say see that -- see all these people taking the fifth -- that tells you something really bad and criminal happened here -- I think that's fair game as well.

BERMAN: Yes. It has a political impact but I don't know that those people care about that political impact, right?

HONIG: Right. I mean, that's the big question. Would they rather allow the committee to say look, they took the fifth and avoid testifying? I think that's a good trade-off for somebody who is trying to avoid coming out with the truth and avoid embarrassing themselves and Donald Trump.

BERMAN: There are going to be a lot of frustrated people out there. But the bottom line is that the Fifth Amendment -- this is a constitutional right.

HONIG: Yes. It's not easily brushed aside. And it's also important to note it's not a get out of jail free card. It means you can't be held in contempt. But all those crimes that you've taken the fifth on, you can still be prosecuted for those.

BERMAN: Elie Honig, thank you very much.

HONIG: Thanks, John.

BERMAN: I hope no one asks you under oath if you know me. HONIG: I'm taking the fifth.

BERMAN: I would.

NEW DAY continues right now.

Good morning to our viewers here in the United States and all around the world. I'm John Berman with Brianna Keilar. It is Monday, December sixth, and we do have breaking news this morning.

Restrictions on international travelers coming to the United States take effect this morning. Everyone has to show proof of a negative COVID test taken within one day of departure, and foreign nationals will have to show proof that they are fully vaccinated.

COVID is surging again in the United States. The average number of daily cases are now at 120,000. That's the highest number in two months. The Omicron variant has now been detected in at least 17 states, and that and other things have demand for vaccines spiking.

Scientists are still waiting for conclusive information about the severity of the Omicron variant. In other words, does it make you more sick? We're going to speak to a key scientist in South Africa, who is sometimes called the Fauci of South Africa, in just a few minutes and hear what scientists there are now seeing when it comes to breathing issues.

KEILAR: In the meantime, this morning in Michigan, the parents of the Oxford school shooting suspect are in custody. And we have learned that they are both on suicide watch after being held on half a million dollars bond each.

Police arrested James and Jennifer Crumbley at a warehouse in Detroit nearly 40 miles from their home after law enforcement spent hours searching for them. Police say a man who assisted the Crumbleys has come forward and is cooperating.

CNN's Athena Jones has more on this.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ATHENA JONES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): As the Oxford community continues to mourn the tragic loss of the lives of four teens, the superintendent for the Oxford community school district has requested an independent security review of all safety practices and procedures in place.

In a letter addressed to the community, Tim Throne has provided, for the first time, details of the school system's version of events. The superintendent saying the initial review of videos of the shooting shows that staff and students acted swiftly and heroically, preventing additional deaths and injuries. He also said the shooting began when hundreds of students were in the hallway transitioning from one classroom to the other.

Fifteen-year-old Ethan Crumbley is facing 24 charges, including terrorism, murder, and other counts.

As for Crumbley's parents, the superintendent said they did not inform the school district they had recently purchased a gun for him and that he had access to it.

Jennifer and James Crumbley were captured at a Detroit warehouse early Saturday morning. This exclusive CNN video shows the couple being taken into custody after a tip led police to the building.

Their attorney said the couple had every intention of turning themselves in.

SHANNON SMITH, ATTORNEY FOR JAMES AND JENNIFER CRUMBLEY: We're in contact with our clients. They were scared, they were terrified. They were not at home. They were figuring out what to do, getting finances in order.

JONES (voice-over): In the latest twist, a 65-year-old Polish emigrant has identified himself as the person who police say helped the fugitive parents into the building where they were arrested.

In a statement released by this attorney, Andrzej Sikora says he knew the Crumbleys were using his workspace but did not fully understand what was going on. The statement also says that Sikora voluntarily contacted local authorities to provide information and he is fully cooperating with law enforcement to assist in their investigation. No criminal charges have been announced against Sikora.

As for Jennifer and James Crumbley, they are now in the same county jail where their son is being held on charges of murdering four classmates -- Madisyn Baldwin, Tate Myre, Hana St. Juliana, and Justin Shilling.

The Crumbleys were arraigned by videoconference Saturday morning and charged with four counts of involuntary manslaughter in connection with the deadly shooting. The couple has entered not guilty pleas to all --