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Doctor: Ex-NFL Player Had Brain Injury At Time Of Murder Spree; Frum: Emergency Care Should Go To Unvaccinated Last; Ben Affleck Says Marriage To Jennifer Garner Led Him To Drink. Aired 7:30-8a ET

Aired December 15, 2021 - 07:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[07:30:00]

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: I just think that's so interesting, Jon.

JONATHAN KARL, AUTHOR, "BETRAYAL: THE FINAL ACT OF THE TRUMP SHOW": Yes.

BERMAN: Mitch McConnell is so willing to say nothing about anything at any time. His words are so carefully chosen and he chose to basically say you know what, I really want to see what we're learning over there in the House.

KARL: Yes, that was a rocket. That was a clearly deliberate message to say that this committee is doing important work and is revealing important new details about what happened on January sixth.

And that is not the talking point from Mar-a-Lago, obviously. It's also not the talking point from Kevin McCarthy and the Republican leadership in the House that has tried to portray this as all just some big partisan exercise. It's clearly more than that, and that's what we're seeing unfold now.

BERMAN: Jonathan Karl, author of "Betrayal." There's a lot in there and boy, it seems even more important every day we learn new things coming from these texts and documents. So, Jonathan, thank you so much.

KARL: Thank you.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks, Jon.

Coming up, what doctors found when they analyzed the brain scan of a former NFL player accused of going on a deadly rampage.

BERMAN: And a new data analysis showing 29,000 avoidable COVID deaths occurred last month alone, all among the unvaccinated.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:35:30]

BERMAN: Doctors who examined the brain tissue of former NFL player Phillip Adams say he had stage two CTE when police say he killed six people in Rock Hill, South Carolina before taking his own life earlier this year.

Adams, who played with the 49ers, Patriots, and most recently the Atlanta Falcons, suffered multiple injuries and concussions throughout his professional career. Doctors say his CTE was quote "unusually severe in both frontal lobes and may have contributed to his behavioral abnormalities."

Joining me now is the doctor who conducted the examination on Adams' brain, Dr. Ann McKee. She's the director of the CTE Center at Boston University where the most important work in this country on this issue is being done. So, Doctor, thank you so much for being with us.

First of all, what does stage two --

DR. ANN MCKEE, DIRECTOR, CTE CENTER AT BOSTON UNIVERSITY (via Skype): Thank you for having me.

BERMAN: What does stage two CTE mean?

MCKEE: So, stage two CTE is when the pathology is primarily in the cortex of the brain. That's how -- you know, this major part of the brain that controls our ability to think clearly, make sound judgments. But it also affects our ability to control our impulses. And when you have frontal lobe pathology you may have rage behaviors, violent tendencies, depression, impulsivity -- all sorts of things. And that's, I think, what we saw in Phillip Adams.

BERMAN: So, with stage two CTE there's a profound behavioral impact is what you're saying.

MCKEE: There is. There is a profound behavioral impact that we've found in almost all of the players. And in this case, the pathology was particularly severe in the frontal lobes, which I think accounted for some of his paranoia and those behaviors at the end of his life.

BERMAN: Now, one of the things with these types of -- this type of analysis is you can only study a person's brain like this after they die. That's one of the challenges for you in studying CTE, correct?

MCKEE: Oh, it's absolutely the greatest challenge we have. We're getting closer every day. There are many universities working on ways to diagnose CTE during life.

We're getting very close with brain scans, looking for the tau-protein with imaging. We're getting very close with what we call fluid biomarkers, blood tests, as well as spinal fluid tests, but we're not there yet. We've made tremendous advances over the last five years, so we're close but we're not there yet.

BERMAN: As I said, you're doing such important work up there and I think everyone should be grateful for it. But until we get these extra breakthroughs, then what should be done to monitor these types of risks?

MCKEE: Well, you know, we're just not paying enough attention to our athletes at all levels. CTE is not just a disease of the former NFL players although most NFL players, by virtue of the fact that they've played a long career starting in youth, often going to high school, college, and then the NFL -- they usually have decades of playing football. That puts them at very high risk.

So, what we need to do is lower the risk for individuals to develop CTE. One of the easiest ways to do that would be to raise the starting age.

If players start later in life, then their cumulative head impacts -- because it's not just the concussions that give rise to CTE. It's actually much more importantly the smaller hits called subconcussive hits. They don't rise to the level of symptoms. Players play right through them. It's the cumulative exposure to those subconcussive hits, usually over years, that leads to risk for CTE.

BERMAN: You see these offensive linemen who, every play, run up against somebody and get a little jolt -- maybe not a concussion.

What does the NFL say when you tell them this?

MCKEE: I haven't spoken with the NFL for quite some time so I'm not sure what they say.

BERMAN: All right. Dr. Ann McKee, as I said, we do appreciate the work you're doing. Thank you so much for being with us this morning.

MCKEE: Thank you for having me.

BERMAN: So, a provocative opinion. Our next guest says hospitals should prioritize the unvaccinated last. He's here to make his case.

KEILAR: And just in, President Biden will release the secret JFK assassination documents today -- the ones that historians have wanted to see for decades. What they're expected to reveal.

[07:40:05]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KEILAR: All right, we have some new data analysis from the Kaiser Family Foundation. It finds that since June, there were 163,000 COVID deaths among unvaccinated adults, including more than 29,000 last month alone.

Our next guest had a provocative take on Twitter, writing, "Let hospitals quietly triage emergency care to serve the unvaccinated last. I'm impressed by the immense self-pity of the anti-vaxxers who see themselves as bottomless victims, even as their own bad choices deny hospital care to so many others in desperate need."

And joining me now to discuss his take is staff writer for "The Atlantic" and former speechwriter for President George W. Bush, David Frum.

[07:45:00] All right. So, admittedly, this is a controversial take. I'm sure a lot of people agree with you. But just make your case for why this should go this way.

DAVID FRUM, STAFF WRITER, THE ATLANTIC, FORMER SPEECHWRITER FOR PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH: The United States has stalled out. The vaccination program in the United States has stalled out at about the lowest level in the developed world.

As you say, the causalities are terrible. People are dying and the emergency rooms are crowded. Schools are still being closed. We're going to be paying the price for that for 50, 60, 70 years -- children who have their education disrupted. When you travel, you can't be sure that the person next to you isn't exercising his or her right to infect.

So, we have this terrible problem and it is being incited and preserved by politicians and media personalities who for agendas of their own they want to slow the recovery from the pandemic, they want to hurt the president, they want to hurt the president's party.

And so, they are encouraging -- while being vaccinated themselves most of the time -- by allowing no one who is not vaccinated to come into contact with them while traveling in private planes so they are safe. But like generals huddled safe in war and back in the bunker, they're sending their troops out on suicide missions and society is paying the price.

So what I said in this Twitter feed is what are we going to do about this? If we're stalled out -- if mandates work but the courts are sabotaging them -- if we're stalled out, what are the remedies?

KEILAR: How is it moral to propose that?

FRUM: I wasn't writing a management treatise on hospital emergency rooms. This was a tweet where I was trying to give voice to the bathamin (ph) frustration that people have been doing the right thing feel toward people doing the wrong thing.

Look, we have a long tradition in American politics of straight talk, but it's only for some people. When President Clinton was running for office in 1992, he had his famous Sister Souljah moment where he chastised Black music artists who had said some anti-social things. President Obama, when he was running in 2008, literally told young Black men, pull up your pants.

But for the unvaccinated, we are told the right approach is handholding, do you want a cookie? What can the rest of us do to make life easier for you?

And maybe that's the right approach psychologically but every once in a while, if you're in my business where you can just say what's true -- and sometimes on Twitter where it's a little more formal -- say you know what -- you guys are imposing a lot of costs on everybody else. You're not in the right here. Quit feeling so damn sorry for yourself all the time. And oh, by the way, stop comparing yourself to victims of the

Holocaust, for God's sake. That's indecent.

KEILAR: I understand and I feel it at times myself to be prone to anger --

FRUM: Right.

KEILAR: -- over the fact that people won't take simple steps that, hey, if it's not going to keep me and other people safe, it's going to keep them safe.

FRUM: Yes.

KEILAR: Incredibly easy to be angry about that.

But what do you say to the fact that if you were to look at this operationally -- what you're proposing --

FRUM: Yes.

KEILAR: You mentioned politicians. Some people are being misled.

FRUM: Yes.

KEILAR: You know, you look at the breakdown of vaccinated- unvaccinated for African-Americans. They have historical suspicions about government intervention in medicine. I mean, what do you say to these contributing factors?

FRUM: Look, if I am doing an analysis of why people are unvaccinated, as many of my "Atlantic" colleagues have done -- and obviously, it can come from complicated places. And it is true if you talk to psychologists and sociologists, they will tell you sometimes the sympathetic approach works better. And I'm agnostic on that.

But I think everybody else is also entitled to say when you were trying to get surgery for back pain -- when you are told -- and you're being told well, that's voluntary surgery and it has to be postponed for two, three, four, five months, so go live with your pain. Or when you -- when people come from traffic accidents and find the beds are taken.

I mean, can't they at least express some frustration with that? That the pervasive attitude that one minority group in society who have the option, who could do the right thing and were refusing to.

As you say, they're being lied to but they also have agency. They could make better choices. Those costs -- no one can even mutter against them. I muttered a little.

KEILAR: You can't really do this, though, right? You can't -- you can't really do what you're talking about doing.

FRUM: It may not be feasible. As I say, I'm not -- I'm not here writing a treatise on how to manage a hospital. It may not be feasible.

But it would be helpful if the -- I think, if the unvaccinated -- the stubborn ones -- not the people who are -- you know, they don't have a clinic in their neighborhood -- but the ones who -- and the ones who are being misled -- if they just understood look, this is a 2-1 majority against you. This -- your -- you are the reason the schools are still being closed. This pandemic could be over.

The medical miracle that put in your hands the tool of life -- take it, take it. And when people go on television and tell -- and they advise you not to, just remember they have done it. Everyone on T.V. -- maybe not the second-tier radio hosts who are -- they actually walk the walk.

[07:50:00]

But the people on T.V. who are giving you this advice, they are vaccinated. They are flying private. Their kids are safe. They are putting you at risk they do not want for themselves.

KEILAR: You called it "quietly, personally vaxxed" --

FRUM: Yes.

KEILAR: -- these people who are misleading.

So, you're saying if people who are unvaccinated could only realize. But we also admit in this discussion it would be very difficult to put this idea that you're talking about into practice.

So, what does it do besides kind of scratch that itch to get angry at the unvaccinated? This isn't really going to change their minds.

FRUM: No, it's not, perhaps. But, you know, when President Clinton and President Obama spoke in the way that they did, what were they doing? What is the point?

And sometimes you want to just change the balance of discussion into society and to say that the people who represent -- those who are doing the right thing -- they have some concerns here, too, and they need to be validated. And they are facing burdens and costs and risks that are being imposed on them.

The pandemic could be largely over. The schools could be open. Travel could resume. Business could function more normally.

And by the way, in many other countries, this is happening where the vaccination rates are reaching 80 and 85 percent. The United States -- we are far, far below that and this is the country that got the vaccines first. And get boosted. It's free, it's easy -- do it.

KEILAR: Look, I hear you. I hear that desire to kind of want to just shake someone into the realization of what they can do for themselves and for others. It's extremely infuriating at times and I think a lot of people are interested by your comments.

FRUM: Thank you.

KEILAR: David, thank you -- David Frum.

So, it's no secret that Elon Musk and Sen. Elizabeth Warren are not fans of each other, but now their feud has gone to a new level. Why the Tesla billionaire is calling her Sen. Karen.

BERMAN: Worse than the back tattoo, worse than "Gigli." What Ben Affleck just said about Jennifer Garner.

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[07:56:09]

KEILAR: Ben Affleck says that if he were married to Jennifer Garner he would still be drinking.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BEN AFFLECK, ACTOR, DIRECTOR, PRODUCER, SCREENWRITER: ...be drinking. You know, like --

HOWARD STERN, RADIO SHOW HOST, "THE HOWARD STERN SHOW": Right.

AFFLECK: -- it was part of why I started drinking alcohol because I was trapped. You know, I was like, I can't leave because of my kids but I'm not happy. What do I do? And what I did was, like, you know, drink a bottle of scotch and fall asleep on the couch, which turned out not to be the solution.

We grew apart. We had a marriage that didn't work. This happens. She's somebody I love and respect but to whom I shouldn't be married any longer.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: Now, Affleck made those comments in a recent interview with Howard Stern. Affleck has been to rehab multiple times for drinking. He and Garner, of course, share three children together -- Berman.

BERMAN: It's just -- it's just an awful thing to say. First of all, this isn't my fault. This is an awful thing to say. I mean, what an awful thing to say about someone who has shown you nothing but patience, and love, and respect over the years -- enormous amounts of patience -- to say I'd still be drinking if I were married to her?

KEILAR: Yes, and I know he said -- he says there he has love and respect for her but I don't know. I think part of the reason that he has an alcohol problem is because he has an alcohol problem, right?

BERMAN: Yes.

KEILAR: It's not necessarily a moral failing that he has an addiction issue, but it sure is not Jennifer Garner's problem, you know? And I just think there are many people who are in that situation he describes and they are not having that particular issue. I just -- I guess I would have liked to hear him talk more about himself and his experience with addiction rather than putting it on his ex-wife.

BERMAN: Yes, I mean -- and look -- and to me, the addiction issues, which are perfectly reasonable and serious, but that's almost an aside to me. It's just a mean thing to say. It's just a mean thing to say --

KEILAR: Yes.

BERMAN: -- about someone --

KEILAR: What do you --

BERMAN: -- period, full stop, you know?

KEILAR: What do you think J.Lo is saying to him about this?

BERMAN: I can't -- I can't even begin to speculate here. And then you start getting in, like, degrees of separation here and you could bring in half the -- half the Hollywood community here.

KEILAR: Yes. She should take note, though. I'd be curious -- I'd be curious what counsel she gives him.

All right, NEW DAY continues right now.

Good morning to our viewers here in the United States and around the world. It is Wednesday, December 15th and I'm Brianna Keilar with John Berman.

Breaking overnight, an extraordinary moment in the insurrection probe. Former White House chief of staff Mark Meadows held in criminal contempt of Congress for defying a subpoena from the House Select Committee that is investigating the January sixth attack on the Capitol. The Democratic-controlled House voted 222 to 208. Just two Republicans, Adam Kinzinger and Liz Cheney, joining Democrats in voting yay.

The vote now paves the way for prosecution. It's going to be up to the Justice Department to decide whether to pursue criminal charges here.

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi immediately tweeting a picture of herself signing the enrollment of Meadows' contempt resolution, adding, "We will find the truth of that dark day."

Now, this vote happened after Meadows shared thousands of documents and texts with the committee, then declined to testify, claiming courts need to decide whether former President Trump's claims of executive privilege are valid even though he waived some of those with the communications that he shared.

The committee released even more of his revealing text messages that were sent and received as the violence unfolded on January sixth.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. LIZ CHENEY, (R-WY): Here are a few others from Republican members. Quote, "It is really bad up here on the Hill."

Another one, "The president needs to stop this ASAP."

Another one, "Fix this now."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: Meanwhile, New York investigators are looking into whether --