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Rep. Eric Swalwell (D-CA) Interviewed on Information being Released by Congressional Committee Investigating January 6th Insurrection and Possible Criminal Referrals for Former President Trump; Omicron Variant Doubling in Number of Infections Daily; Biden Administration to Release Documents Related to John F. Kennedy Assassination. Aired 8-8:30a ET

Aired December 15, 2021 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:00:00]

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Meanwhile, New York investigators are looking into whether former President Trump misled his own accountants to get loans. Sources tell CNN that a long time Trump accountant testified recently before a Manhattan grand jury investigating his finances.

I want to bring in Democratic Congressman Eric Swalwell of California. He's on the Judiciary Committee and was an impeachment manager for Donald Trump's second impeachment. Congressman, good to see you in person. Welcome.

REP. ERIC SWALWELL (D-CA): You, too.

BERMAN: What do you know now, now that Mark Meadows's texts have been released, some of them, what do you know today that you didn't know three days ago?

SWALWELL: Or what I didn't know when I was an impeachment manager, right. In the fog of January 6th, we're trying to get all these people to come in. They're not cooperating. We want to know what is Donald Trump thinking, what is he doing, not doing. We now know that concerned FOX News hosts, concerned family members, concerned legislators who were with me in the chamber are all aiming their concerns at the White House, and Trump is doing nothing. And this is just one witness who is only giving us a very little amount of information. All the more reason to probe further.

BERMAN: Why does it matter?

SWALWELL: Because, one, Donald Trump may be on the hook for criminal liability. It wasn't an accident that Liz Cheney laid out the elements of the offense of essentially not acting to save the Congress while we're performing the Electoral College count. So there may be a criminal referral that could take place there. They have a lot more to learn in that regard.

It also matters for history, to hold the president accountable if he did indeed incite and aim the mob at the Capitol and then did nothing. And it matters because January 6th, 2025, is not too far away. We're going to have to do this again. And if we're going to protect and harden the Capitol against an attack like this again, we need to know what went wrong on January 6th, 2021.

BERMAN: So possible crimes, and for history. Both very important. I want to take them separately if I can. Possible crimes. What crimes?

SWALWELL: Impeding Congress' ability to carry out an official act, so obstruction of Congress. That's a possible crime. Still a lot more to learn. I hope the Department of Justice is also looking at this. This should not fall on Congress.

BERMAN: Do you have any reason to believe the Department of Justice is looking at it?

SWALWELL: There have not been leaks. That may be a good thing. But typically, you hear about people going in for grand jury testimony. We haven't heard anything like that.

BERMAN: Do you personally see right now a reason for criminal referral?

SWALWELL: I see a reason to keep going and looking at everyone around Donald Trump. And, again, they have said, Donald Trump is not off the table. And if people are going to say I'm not coming in, I'm taking the Fifth, that also tells you I need to know, yes, that's a criminal --

BERMAN: The law that would need to be broken in this case would pertain specifically to what? Would it pertain to keeping Congress from certifying or reading the Electoral College count? Keeping that from happening is the law that was broken?

SWALWELL: Yes, and whether by his action or inaction, and inaction really only can apply to him because he's the commander in chief. So his dereliction of duty, not sending reinforcements, not sending the National Guard, that would be inaction that would lead to the obstruction of Congress. Still early, but it's worth probing.

BERMAN: Do you need to prove that either the president or others had a role in getting people inside the Capitol in order for it to be a crime?

SWALWELL: We have shown -- no. But we have shown in the second impeachment, this committee is showing that the president from about mid-December through his tweets, through his public statements, through $50 million in Facebook ads, he incited, mobilized, aimed the mob at the Capitol on that day. When other speakers were talking about committing violence, the president said you have to fight like hell or you're not going to have a country, told them to go to the capitol. And as we are learning now, sat and did nothing when people were pleading for help because of lives being at risk.

BERMAN: We certainly see the pleas coming in repeatedly to Mark Meadows. We may not know exactly what Mark Meadows told Donald Trump because Mark Meadows won't testify. Based on what you've seen in Merrick Garland, Merrick Garland seems to have his own set of considerations running the Department of Justice. What is your reasonable expectation, honestly, based on what you've seen of Garland, for what he would do?

SWALWELL: I want him to be independent. And he indicted Steve Bannon. That was an easy call. I hope he is going to indict, or at least look at the laws and the facts here with Mark Meadows. That's his call. I'm not the prosecutor. It's his call.

And as it relates to Donald Trump, if there is evidence of obstruction of Congress, I hope at least gets a fair trial at the Department of Justice. What I fear, though, John, I don't want just to sweep this under the rug because it is a former president. And don't treat him any more harshly because he's Donald Trump, but don't do him any favors because he's a former president.

BERMAN: You talk about history. And I have to tell you, look, these text messages, I was a little surprised by the detail that came in. So the last few days has been surprising to me. I was even more surprised yesterday to hear from the Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell talk about what he's learned and how he feels about this process. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[08:05:07]

SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL, (R-KY) SENATE MINORITY LEADER: I do think we're all watching, as you are, what is unfolding on the House side. And it will be interesting to reveal all the participants who were involved.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: Interesting to reveal all the participants who were involved. What do you hear there?

SWALWELL: Well, he has concerns about people in his own caucus, Josh Hawley, Ted Cruz and others. By the way, Mitch McConnell had the opportunity to vote to convict. He walked away from that. He had the opportunity to join us and have a bicameral, bipartisan investigation into January 6th. He walked away from that.

And all those people who are sending messages to the president, it is maddening to me. I sat in that chamber. I didn't send messages to Mark Meadows. I didn't send messages to the president. I sent a text message to my wife telling her goodbye because I didn't think reinforcements were coming. And then we ultimately because of the grace of God and the cops who fought like hell for us saved us, we were able to get out. But that day could be repeated, and that's why this is so important.

BERMAN: Congressman Eric Swalwell, nice it see you. Have a happy holiday.

SWALWELL: You, too. Thanks. BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: This morning the National Institutes of Health is expected to release the latest data on the vaccine efficacy against the Omicron coronavirus variant. So this is happening as both New York and California are reinstating mask mandates in indoor public settings for about a month beginning this week. CNN's Elizabeth Cohen is with us now on this. Elizabeth?

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Brianna, what we know about the Omicron variant right now is that it is very transmissible. Let's take a look at something that CDC Director Dr. Rochelle Walensky said yesterday. She said that in some countries rates are doubling every two days in some countries. That's faster even than Delta. And it seems like just months ago that we were talking, or it was just months ago that we were talking about how fast Delta was. Now, thankfully with Omicron, if you look at the South Africa experience and other people's experience, people don't seem to get as sick. And so that obviously is a good thing. Let's take a listen to Dr. Anthony Fauci.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, WHITE HOUSE CHIEF MEDICAL ADVISER: Whatever it is, the disease seems to be less severe. Whether it's inherently less pathogenic as a virus, or whether there is more protection in the community. We're just going to have to see when it comes in the United States. And for sure, Jim, it is going to be dominant in the United States given its doubling time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COHEN: So we just heard Dr. Fauci say for sure Omicron is going to be dominant in the United States. And in some ways you could think, well, who cares? It doesn't seem to make people as sick as Delta or other variants. And here is the reason why we care. If this spreads far and wide, as it seems like it will, it will reach people who are unable to fight it off. So there will be many, many people for whom it will be a case of the sniffles and no big deal, and truly then, who cares? But it will reach people who are immune compromised, it will reach people who can't fight it off, and that's one of the concerns that's going on here. Brianna?

KEILAR: We're all vectors. That's what we have to remember. So we're all part of the system. Elizabeth, thank you so much.

BERMAN: And Brianna, on that note, this just in -- Secretary of State Antony Blinken's trip to Asia being cut short due to a member of the traveling press testing positive for coronavirus. Instead of attending his meetings in Thailand scheduled for tomorrow morning, Blinken will now make his way back to the United States. Speaking with Thailand's foreign minister -- speaking with Thailand's foreign minister, Blinken expressed his deep regret and invited him to Washington. Blinken has already visited the U.K., Indonesia, and Malaysia on this international trip.

KEILAR: I think this is what we're going to see, right? We're going to see people who are affected by this. It's affecting national security and foreign policy.

So happening today, the Biden administration is expected to publicly release a tranche of secret documents. These are documents that some historians and conspiracy theorists hope might shed light on the assassination of President John F. Kennedy. CNN's Katie Bo Lillis with us now on this story. OK, what are the documents? What are we going to see here?

KATIE BO LILLIS, CNN REPORTER: Yes, so what are we expecting to learn today? I think the release of documents, the number of documents that we're talking about today, probably relatively small, with a larger tranche expected scheduled for this day next year. These are documents that were meant to be released earlier this year. President Biden delayed them because he wanted to put in place his own review process to go through concerns from national security agencies like the FBI, like the CIA who are worried that exposing this information was going to damage sources and methods. It was going to expose sensitive intelligence information.

It's important to understand these documents, while they're not really meant to focus on the assassination, they have in fact covered a great deal of information related to sensitive intelligence activities during the height of the cold war.

[08:10:03]

Now, JFK-ologists, historians, Congress members who are worried that not releasing this information is damaging in American faith in institutions, they're saying this is ridiculous. What sources and methods do we need to protect from the 1960s? Intelligence agencies, obviously, say, look, no, like, we are in fact genuinely worried about this. They're the ones that are arguing to hold this back.

And it is possible that there is a CIA agent dating from the 1960s still alive. But bottom JFK historians who are familiar with this universe of documents, they will tell you that the chances that there is going to be a smoking gun in here that is going to change the official narrative, pretty small.

KEILAR: So I think I might know the answer to this question, but is this going to satisfy people who want to know what's going on here?

LILLIS: Yes, it's a good question. Look, Trump released tens of thousands of these documents over the course of his presidency. So there is about 95 percent of the material from this bunch that is actually out there already. There are about 15,000 documents that have some redactions, and about 500 that are withheld entirely. We're told that is almost entirely tax return information to include Lee Harvey Oswald's tax returns.

So are people going to be satisfied? Probably not. We already have seen a prominent JFK researcher threaten to sue Biden for not releasing all of this information today, claiming that he's flouting Congress. We do know from public polling that a majority of Americans don't believe Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone. Is today's release going to change that? Probably not. KEILAR: I just do think that we should be able to see this. It has

been so long, and it just seems there is damage done by waiting to release it even longer.

LILLIS: The credibility question I think for serious people is the biggest concern here.

KEILAR: Katie, thank you so much.

LILLIS: Thanks so much.

KEILAR: Katie Bo, I should say. Your mother would be mad at me if I didn't --

(LAUGHTER)

KEILAR: So the D.C. attorney general says that he plans to hold those accountable for the Capitol insurrection by bankrupting them. He's going to join us next.

And Donald Trump says his own vice president is mortally wounded after refusing to help him overturn the election. Does his party, do his voters agree?

BERMAN: And pick your player. Elon Musk, Senator Elizabeth Warren, escalating their battle over taxes.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:15:59]

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: Washington, D.C.'s attorney general is seeking damages over the January 6th attack. Karl Racine has filed the lawsuit against members of the Proud Boys and Oath Keepers, two of the groups that stormed the Capitol. He's seeking to hold them liable for millions of dollars spent dispatching officers and treating those who were injured.

And D.C. Attorney General Karl Racine is with us now to talk about this.

Karl, thank you so much for being with us.

You know, just tell us a little bit in your view why this is so important and what you think the effect would be of financial penalties against these groups.

KARL RACINE, D.C. ATTORNEY GENERAL: Sure.

In America, when wrong is done, accountability needs to occur. And obviously on January 6th, of 2021, what you saw was a planned, organized attack on our democracy and freedom that injured and resulted in the death of numerous officers.

Three District of Columbia officers suffering from psychological trauma after that defense of the Capitol have killed themselves. D.C. had 850 at least officers come to the Capitol to try to defend our democracy.

What we're doing is going after those culprits, those criminals, the wrongdoers and we're going to hit them where it counts in the civil way. And that's with money.

And the evidence is that when you go after these hate groups and extremists, for money, they scatter. And they are much more careful and cautious about what they're doing.

So the criminal investigation should proceed, the civil prosecution should also proceed.

KEILAR: So you're making an argument that this would deter other attacks. How worried are you about another attack?

RACINE: I think the evidence is plain. And I'm going to give credit to another news outlet here, "The Washington Post," for an extraordinary series on the planning, the event, and the aftermath. And it is clear in what we're seeing with respect to state legislation around the country, restricting access to voting, putting in electors that are going to be more favorable to someone like the former president, that the plan is afoot.

So right now is the time for accountability, and deterrence. That's why we're filing this lawsuit.

KEILAR: This isn't the first civil lawsuit to be filed against groups who stormed the Capitol. It is one that does not name former President Trump or his allies. So, explain to us why not?

RACINE: What's different here, I think this is really important, is that a sovereign government, the District of Columbia, is the plaintiff. That's very different because we know that the actions on January 6th injured the District of Columbia.

Capitol Hill residents were terrified. District residents around the city were terrified. District police officers were injured.

Think again about Michael Fanone, 20-year police officer, voted for President Trump in 2016, dragged down the Capitol steps, beaten with polls, sprayed with bear spray, chemical spray, God knows what else, tasered, shocked, heart attack, concussion. We need recompense and penalties for those conduct.

KEILAR: I don't believe -- I don't believe he was shot. Am I -- am I incorrect in that? I --

RACINE: Shocked.

KEILAR: Shocked, sorry, yes.

RACINE: Shocked with Tasers.

KEILAR: Yes, no, tased indeed.

Karl, I want to thank you so much. We're going to be following this. You obviously have a lot of legal efforts under way now and we'll be tracking them. Thank you so much.

RACINE: Thank you so much for having me.

KEILAR: So, new accusations that South Dakota Governor Kristi Noem abused her position in order to get her daughter a job.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: And just in, Oxford community schools in Michigan closing again as the community remains concerned about threats weeks after the school shooting there. Why they're, quote, not ready to return.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:23:55]

KEILAR: New accusations against South Dakota Governor Kristi Noem and her daughter. A former state employee says that state officials gave Noem's daughter unusual treatment. They offered her an extra chance to complete her application to get certified as a real estate appraiser.

CNN's Maeve Reston is with us now on this.

Maeve, just give us the back story on what happened here.

MAEVE RESTON, CNN NATIONAL POLITICAL REPORTER: So this former state employee who testified before state lawmakers yesterday was a reluctant witness. She oversaw this program that Noem's daughter Cassidy Peters was applying for. And what she testified yesterday was that Noem's daughter got this special arrangement, essentially for a third -- she was facing a denial of her application and was given a third chance to redo her work, and get certified as an appraiser after Governor Noem summoned the head of this program as well as a whole slew of other state employees and her daughter to this very unusual meeting at the governor's mansion.

[08:25:01]

And so, this employee said she felt intimidated, she was nervous, she didn't expect all the other state officials to be involved in this matter and her account is very different from Governor Noem. Governor Noem said she did not seek any special treatment for her daughter and this meeting was called just to discuss Governor Noem.

Governor Noem said she did not seek any special treatment for her daughter and this meeting was called just to discuss issues with the program that she had, but this employee said that her daughter's application was discussed in detail during this meeting and then this arrangement was come up with that allowed her daughter to complete this program. And she said that in her long history overseeing this program, she had not seen another applicant who had been treated that way, Brianna.

BERMAN: And, Maeve, this employee testified that she feels she was forced to retire after this meeting?

RESTON: Right. This is what state lawmakers are really trying to get to the bottom of. This employee was then forced out of her job, she says, a few months after this meeting. She ended up filing an age discrimination suit against the state.

But what was so interesting was that she could not answer a lot of the questions in this hearing yesterday about why she was forced out because under the settlement agreement, she has a non-disparagement clause. And so, she was not able to explain the reasons that she thinks she was forced out of her job.

But a lot of lawmakers including Kristi Noem's new opponent, who is challenging her in the governor's race next year want that non- disparagement clause to be lifted for this former state employee so that she can really talk about what went on in this meeting, and whether Noem had a role in forcing her out.

So, South Dakota has very weak sunshine laws on accountability for lawmakers, so it is unclear whether we're ever really going to get all the details on this, but it cast a shadow over Noem and her future ambitions potentially for the White House.

KEILAR: Yeah, if you can't get the answers to those questions, how can there be consequences for an elected official. That's also something to consider.

RESTON: Exactly.

KEILAR: Maeve, thank you for your reporting. Appreciate it.

RESTON: Thank you.

KEILAR: Here's what else to watch today.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KEILAR: A top Facebook executive says users are to blame for consuming and believing misinformation that is spread on the platform. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANDREW BOSWORTH, FACEBOOK EXECUTIVE: If your democracy can't tolerate the speech of people, I'm not sure what kind of democracy it is. The individual humans are the ones who choose to believe or not believe a thing. They're the ones who choose to share or not share a thing. I don't feel comfortable at all saying they don't get to have a voice. I don't agree with what they said.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: Joining us now is the co-CEO of Free Press, Jessica Gonzalez.

Jessica, what did you think of what you heard there?

JESSICA GONZALEZ, CO-CEO, FREE PRESS: You know, I think this is just another play out of the Facebook PR playbook. Deny, deny, deny. Deny its platforms are causing any harm. Deny that it has any control

over the design of its systems that drive inflammatory and false content out to millions of people. Deny that they're making decisions about content moderation every single day with impunity.

Sure, of course, people have the right to speak online. The government should not infringe upon that. But the truth is that Facebook is amplifying lies and COVID conspiracy theories to the tune of millions and millions of people per day.

And they're doing that in a really targeted and strategic way. They are tracking our every move. They're collecting our personal and demographic data, and then they're driving content to us based on our perceived interests and vulnerabilities.

So, you know, that includes COVID conspiracies and this business model isn't just creepy. It is actually contributing to the death toll. So when I see this kind of comment and I know that as bad as this problem is in English, it is even worse in Spanish and non-English languages, I'm really disappointed.

We heard from Frances Haugen that Facebook has all the tools and the resources to fix these targeted conspiracy theories. And that it just doesn't want to.

So this cavalier attitude in the same week that we have hit 800,000 COVID deaths in this country shows a real callous disinterest in Facebook understanding and stemming its own role.