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Dr. Fauci Says The Omicron Variant Has An Extraordinary Capability Of Transmitting From Person-to-Person; Joe Biden wants to increase testing sites, by putting up 20,000 more sites with billions of tests quickly. Aired 7:30-8a ET

Aired December 21, 2021 - 07:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[07:30:00]

ANTHONY FAUCI, CHIEF MEDICAL ADVISER ON COVID-19 TO PRESIDENT BIDEN: 15 minutes or less. Also if you're in a situation where you may have been exposed to someone you might want to get tested a few days later to make sure that you're in a situation where you have not been infected.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN NEW DAY HOST: The way that this is spreading, Omicron, right now, you can see how 500 million tests would go pretty quickly, and we're not expecting them to come online -

FAUCI: Yes.

BERMAN: -- for a few weeks, Dr. Fauci. I mean, we need these tests yesterday, so what kind of impact will that make?

FAUCI: Well I think, first of all, testing is important as is masking, but the real important thing that people need to do is to get vaccinated and if you are vaccinated fully to get boosted. That's the main frontline of protection. Testing is an important supplement to that. You're correct. We have had in the past not as many tests as everyone would have wanted or needed, but part of the president's program, which he will be speaking about this afternoon, is to dramatically increase the availability of testing with putting up about 20,000 testing sites, with getting a half of billion tests very quickly, literally within the next few days, and then have a situation where you could get anywhere from 200 million to a half a billion tests per month.

So we will be able to very soon have all the tests that people need because you're correct. It is an important part of the comprehensive program of staying safe.

BERMAN: We do get the sense that there's going to be a shift in focus from number of cases, from fact of infection to severity of infections. Why is that important?

FAUCI: Well it's important because you can get maybe a little bit of a misrepresentation of the severity of the impact. If you have a situation where there are infections, particularly breakthrough infections, John, which there will be. We know that. We've seen that with Delta. We'll likely see more of it with Omicron because it's extraordinary capability of transmitting from person-to-person.

But if you get infections at a higher rate but the lack of impact on severity might be important. So if you really want to look at the true impact on society it's much more important to see who gets sick and who doesn't, who requires hospitalization or doesn't.

So if we have a larger number of people getting infected but the degree of severity is very, very low, that would be very important. And if you just count the numbers of infections you may get a misrepresentation as to what is actually going on. That's the reason why you're seeing the shift now and thinking.

You obviously want to pay attention to the number of infections because they could be the forerunner of severity, but if you have a lot of infections and less severity it's much more important to focus on hospitalizations.

BERMAN: Dr. Rashid Zia of Brown University suggests that, like you said, we're going to see breakthrough infections with people who are doubly vaccinated and boosted, but these people largely will be asymptomatic or only mild symptoms. And one of the considerations about the CDC guidelines that say right now you need to isolate for 10 days after a positive test, Dr. Zia says it might be worth reducing that length of time given that these people are going to be asymptomatic.

FAUCI: Well that is going to be - well that's certainly an important consideration which is being discussed right now, particularly, John, in the context of healthcare workers. For example, if you get a healthcare worker who's infected and without any symptoms at all you don't want to keep that person out of work too very long because particularly if we get a run on hospital beds and the need for healthcare personnel, that's something that at least will be considered - at least considered. No decisions yet.

But the possibility if you do have someone who's infected rather than keeping them out for 7 to 10 days if they are without symptoms, put an N95 mask on, they make sure they have the proper PPE, and they might be able to get back to work sooner than the full length of the quarantine period.

BERMAN: So there is at least a consideration for changing that recommendation, reducing it from 10 days?

FAUCI: Yes, there is a consideration. It's being discussed.

BERMAN: I want to ask you, you made a recommendation a few days ago. You say that people who are vaccinated and boosted should feel perfectly comfortable gathering wit loved ones over Christmas as long as they travel safely with masks and getting there. You suggest maybe getting tested. Given the new news about Omicron taking over, given the, you know, very quick rise in cases in New York and other places, are you still comfortable with that guidance?

FAUCI: I am if people are vaccinated and boosted and do the things that I said. You want to be prudent and always be extra special careful because you're dealing with an unprecedented situation of a virus that has an extraordinary capability of transmitting.

[07:35:00]

You want to make sure, for example, when you travel to see relatives who are vaccinated and boosted that you don't get into a situation where you go to an airport, you don't have a mask on, you're in an indoor congregate setting. That's what I mean about being careful. But when you're in the home with vaccinated and boosted people you could feel comfortable enjoying the holiday celebration.

BERMAN: Dr. Fauci, one of the things with Omicron especially, and with some evidence, though not conclusive, we're still waiting that it may cause less severe infections, you hear a lot of people, again, particularly vaccinated and boosted people saying you know what, we're all going to get this but it's not going to be that bad. You know, let's just get through this. What do you say to them?

FAUCI: Yes, I advise against that, John, because even though it may be - and I think it might be actually knowing from what we're seeing in South Africa, it might turn out to be overall Omicron being somewhat less severe, but, you know, everything is relative.

When you say less severe you're still going to get a lot of people who are going to get sick and be in the hospital. There may be less relatively speaking than with other variants, but that doesn't mean that you're completely exempt from getting serious illness.

So it is ill advised to be cavalier about it and say well who cares if I get infected not only for your own health and those around you but for your communal responsibility of not wanting to be a vehicle to spread it to someone else, so there's a lot of considerations that argue against feeling, well, who cares if I get infected. It's important that you don't get infected.

BERMAN: And obviously as you said repeatedly the unvaccinated people are in for a very, very difficult winter, which brings me to my next piece of sound here. We heard the former president over the weekend for the first time reveal that he got the booster shot. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BILL O'REILLY, NO SPIN NEWS HOST: Both the president and I are vaxxed, and did you get the booster?

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Yes.

O'REILLY: I got it, too. OK, so -

TRUMP: Oh don't, don't, don't, don't, don't. Don't. No, no. That's all right. There's a very tiny group over there.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: Again, what's your reaction to hearing that? What kind of a difference does it make now? What kind of a difference would it have made if he had been out there preaching the benefits of the booster all along?

FAUCI: Well I would have liked any public persons, particularly former President Trump who has a large number of followings, to have benefited from what he said, but you noted, John, in the background they were booing him, which just doesn't make any sense at all to boo someone who's saying they did the right thing from a public health standpoint. I'm very pleased that he did say that and come out publically and say that he has been vaccinated and boosted, but to get booed for saying that just tells you about the extraordinary divisiveness we have going into this public health issue, which should be devoid of divisiveness. It should just be focusing on what the public health principles are.

BERMAN: On the subject of divisiveness, Dr. Fauci, I'm not going to play it because, frankly, I think it's dangerous, but Jesse Watters, who is a Fox News entertainer, was giving a speech to a conservative group where he talked about you and suggested to the crowd that they ambush you with what he said was some kind of rhetorical kill shot. That was his exact word. I'm wondering, you know, how much that concerns you when you hear language like that about you and your wellbeing?

FAUCI: Well John, that's horrible. I mean, that just is such a reflection of the craziness that goes on in society. The only thing that I have ever done throughout these two years is to encourage people to practice good public health practices to get vaccinated, to be careful in public settings, to wear a mask. And for that you have some guy out there saying that people should be giving me a kill shot, to ambush me? I mean, what kind of craziness is there in society these days? That's awful that he said that. And he's going to go very likely unaccountable.

(LAUGHTER)

I mean, whatever network he's on is not going to do anything for him. I mean, that's crazy. The guy should be fired on the spot.

BERMAN: Dr. Anthony Fauci, I want to end on a happier note. I want to wish you a Merry Christmas and also a Happy Birthday coming up in a few days.

FAUCI: Thank you.

BERMAN: I hope you get to enjoy some peace and quiet with your family.

FAUCI: Thank you very much, John, and to you and yours, too. Thank you.

BERMAN: All right. Dr. Anthony Fauci. Coming up, could the January 6 Committee's probe lead to a full scale criminal investigation of the insurrection?

ERICA HILL, CNN NEW DAY HOST: But first, pro football, basketball and hockey players facing their toughest opponent yet, the COVID winter surge. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:44:05]

HILL: COVID-19 is really turning into the main opponent for sports teams these days. Last night the National Hockey League said it is pausing all games until after Christmas due to the rising number of COVID cases. Two cases set for today are still on for now. The NHL's move just the latest disruption for sports players and fans. CNN's Brynn Gingras is following all of this for us this morning. Brynn, good morning.

BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Erica. Good morning. Yes, it's really man down everywhere you turn in these teams, and that's really forcing all of these professional leagues to change their COVID protocols.

Now what the NFL is planning to do to test less, that's really raising eyebrows, but also begging the question is this the path forward through this pandemic for corporations, for people. Experts so warning not so fast.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

Packed stadiums, screaming fans. It seemed like the sports world was back in full swing.

[07:45:00]

But COVID-19 and the highly contagious Omicron variant proving to be teams' toughest opponent yet, again threatening sports' schedules and forcing leagues to quickly pivot their protocols so seasons can stay on track.

DR. ALLEN SILLS, CHIEF MEDICAL OFFICER, NFL: I think we can't apply 2020 solutions to the 2021 problems that we're having.

GINGRAS: The NFL making a controversial call over the weekend to only test vaccinated players, coaches, and staff who are showing symptoms of COVID-19. It's a sharp shift from its previous protocols of requiring weekly testing.

SILLS: Testing is a tool. It's a tool that can offer us certain things, but it has certain limitations. And I do think, as I said, you have to look at each era or each phase of the pandemic as to what the value of testing is.

GINGRAS: Lead Commissioner Roger Goodell calling it a targeting testing plan. Some disagree.

CHRISTINE BRENNAN, CNN SPORTS ANALYST: That is, I think, a terrible message of less testing for those communities in which these teams are pillars and the role models for so many others.

GINGRAS: Under the new rules, unvaccinated players must still test daily and high-risk players can opt out of the rest of the season without pay, but the approach undoubtedly means asymptomatic cases will slip detection and the virus will potentially spread.

ZACH BINNEY, SPORTS EPIDEMIOLOGIST, EMORY UNIVERSITY: It was an admission by the NFL that they're not going to be able to completely contain the Omicron variant.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Pass is over the middle the end (ph).

GINGRAS: The NFL essentially leaning on the fact that more than 94 percent of its players are fully vaccinated and, therefore, it says likely safe from serious infection. Adding in a memo, "Omicron appears to be a very different illness from the one that we first confronted in the spring of 2020."

BINNEY: I think that they are probably right as far as their people go. My concern is if everybody in the country makes that choice you may see a whole lot of cases. And even if only a very small percentage of them are severe that can stress and overwhelm an already overtaxed healthcare system.

GINGRAS: The move comes just days after the league was forced to postpone three weekend games and sideline dozens of players who tested positive at a crucial time in the season, just before playoffs.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He scores!

GINGRAS: The NHL now temporarily pausing its season over Christmas. The hands-on approach coming after at least nine teams faced surging COVID cases. The league had already postponed all games that required teams crossing the U.S.-Canadian border.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (inaudible) alone will flush it.

GINGRAS: As for the NBA -

PATTY MILLS, BROOKLYN NETS PLAYER: We're kind of going day-by-day at the moment.

GINGRAS: So far games have postponed there, too, but the league trying to soften the blow for teams short on players because of positive cases by allowing replacement players to be added to their rosters.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

And one expert telling me they really can't criticize these professional leagues because they're actually doing more than what we're seeing most cases in businesses and just people in general. They're having high vaccination rates. They were testing very often, and they're wearing masks and taking other precautions, but to put a finer point on it, Erica, again these teams don't live in a bubble.

You just heard Dr. Fauci talk about it. They go home to their families. Their kids go to school, so, of course, that can make the virus spread to the most vulnerable, and this one expert telling me what the real solution should be is test often. Erica -

HILL: Testing, testing, testing. It all comes back to that. We should be hearing more about that later today from the president.

GINGRAS: Yes.

HILL: Brynn, thank you.

BERMAN: So Queen Elizabeth has canceled her Christmas plans for the second year in a row due to surging coronavirus cases sweeping the United Kingdom. A source says Her Majesty will be celebrate at Windsor Castle instead of travelling to her country estate where she traditionally spends Christmas surrounded by family and friends. CNN's Anna Stewart life in London with the latest on this. What have we learned?

ANNA STEWART, CNN REPORTER: Morning, John. Yes, well this is dilemma that, frankly, families right across the U.K. are grappling with. Unlike last Christmas people can gather. You can do what you'd like to do for Christmas, but should you? And clearly given the huge surge in COVID-19 we're seeing Her Majesty decided that it was just too risky to go to Sandringham because it usually involves multiple households mixing, and actually it also encourages members of the public to gather. They like to see the royal family going into church on Christmas day.

So this is the second year Her Majesty will spend Christmas instead at Windsor. It's possible she travels there later. She normally does quite a long stint in Sandringham. She likes to stay there until early February to mark the anniversary of the death of her father.

This is Her Majesty's first Christmas without her husband, Prince Philip, who, of course, died earlier this year, so it's a really poignant one. Fortunately, she doesn't have to spend it alone given the lack of restrictions here in the U.K., and actually she does have some family members very close in Windsor, a stone's throw away, Prince Edward and his wife, Sophie, the Countess of Wessex, also Prince Andrew who, of course, keeps a fairly low profile these days.

This is a decision, as I say, for many families across the U.K. Not everyone is going to carry on with the Christmas they had planned to, and lots of events are being canceled in the U.K. right now, including actually New Years Eve celebration in Trafalgar Square.

One royal tradition we will still have, of course, the Queen's speech that is still going to be broadcasted at 3 p.m. on Christmas day. John -

[07:50:00]

BERMAN: All right, looking forward to that. Anna Stewart, thank you very much. President Biden addressing the nation from the White House just hours from now. New reporting on what he will say about the next step in the pandemic fight. That's just ahead.

HILL: Up next, the January 6 Committee asking to speak with a sitting lawmaker for the first time. Could this mark a turning point in the investigation? (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:55:00]

The House Select Committee investigating the deadly January 6 attack on the U.S. Capitol wants to speak with a sitting member of Congress about efforts to undermine the 2020 election. Pennsylvania Republican Congressman Scott Perry, the new Leader of the House Freedom Caucus, is the first fellow lawmaker to receive a written request from the committee. So does this mark a turning point in the investigation?

Joining us now, CNN Chief Legal Analyst, former federal prosecutor, Jeffrey Toobin. All right, there's question number one for you. What do you see in this? Does it mark a turning point?

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN CHIEF LEGAL ANALYST: Well it certainly marks a turning point in requests. I don't know what kind of answer they will get from Scott Perry. I suspect it will be a thundering no, but if you look at the texts that have come out in the past couple weeks it's completely clear that Republican members of the House of Representatives were intimately involved in planning the attempt to overturn the election, and that's what the January 6 Committee is investigating, so it's perfectly appropriate and natural for them to be asking these questions.

You notice that this is a - not a subpoena. It's just a request because there are definite constitutional issues about whether they could force a fellow member of the House to testify. A request makes sense, but given the attitude of the House Republicans towards this committee I'm sure that I suspect that they will get, you know, this is a witch hunt. I'm not cooperating.

BERMAN: Jeffrey, "The New York Times" has a story this morning about the possibility of criminal referrals from the committee to the Justice Department. I'm moderately obsessed with this issue not because I think there should or shouldn't be, but because there are people in the committee are sending more and more smoke signals that this is a possibility. What would that mean? How significant would that be?

TOOBIN: You know, to be honest I'm not sure it would be terribly significant. The Department of Justice is going to make these prosecutorial decisions. And, you know, as we saw with the Steve Bannon referral, which was not just some letter from a member of the House but a formal referral from the full House of Representatives, the Department of Justice took a couple of weeks, made its own investigation, and then decided to proceed.

I mean, obviously it is - the significance is not zero. You know, it is - it is a - it is a significant thing to make a request to the Justice Department, but the Justice Department is really going to make its own prosecutorial decisions regardless of what anyone in the House suggests.

HILL: It is, but, you know, to John's point it's interesting the messaging that we've been hearing and I think specifically of what we heard from Liz Cheney, right? Was it last week? I'm losing track of time, but very specific - using very specific language as it relates to the former president, right, and questions about whether there was obstruction of Congress in terms of certifying the election.

TOOBIN: Plus if you add to that the fact that two district court judges in the past couple of weeks have said that the efforts to interfere with the counting of the electoral votes in the House of Representative does count as an obstruction of justice under the federal criminal law. That, too, adds to the pressure and the possibility that there might be more criminal charges arising out of this, including of people who are not physically inside the Capitol.

So I do think, you know, the chances of criminal prosecution coming out of the whole January 6 matter have increased in recent weeks given the legal changes and what we know about the facts. It's just that it's the Department of Justice that's going to be making that decision, not members of the House.

BERMAN: About 45 seconds left, Jeffrey. News overnight that the former president, Donald Trump, is suing the New York Attorney General Letitia James because of her investigation into him. What do you see there?

TOOBIN: I think it's a public relations stunt. There is no way you can stop an investigation just because you don't like it. This is - this is clearly a legitimate investigation of possible violations of the law. However, the one thing that Trump might have in his pocket legally on this issue is that Letitia James, who is an elected official statewide here in New York, has been super outspoken about how much she disdains Donald Trump, how much she, you know, thinks he was a terrible president and perhaps criminal.

If charges ever came, he might have some basis for dismissing the case or at least making a motion to dismiss the case based on her statements, but certainly that would only happen after charges were brought, not at this stage. I don't think this lawsuit is of any significance at all.

BERMAN: Jeffrey Toobin, thank you very much.

TOOBIN: OK, Berman, Erica. See you (ph).

BERMAN: NEW DAY continues right now.

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