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Librarians Fight Back Against Push To Ban Books From Schools; "The 1619 Project" Creator: We Are Living "In A Very Frightening Time"; Fox Defends Jesse Watters "Kill Shot" Remarks About Fauci. Aired 7:30-8a ET

Aired December 22, 2021 - 07:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[07:30:00]

MAX BOOT, SENIOR FELLOW FOR NATIONAL SECURITY STUDIES, COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS, COLUMNIST, THE WASHINGTON POST (via Webex by Cisco): -- writing about some of the terrible things going on in U.S. politics. You know, it helps me to vent and it helps me to put it on paper. And certainly, that's true with the pandemic as well, that it's certainly helpful to me to put it out there and to put my concerns and fears on the printed page or on the internet or wherever.

But I think it's just very hard for most ordinary people who don't have that outlet to cope with it and it's not easy even for me, frankly, even with that outlet.

ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: So then why and how are you able to hang on to some hope at this point?

BOOT: Well, again, this might be just sheer foolishness on my part. I still can't give up -- I still can't give up that glimmer of optimism looking, for example, of what's happened in South Africa where the Omicron variant came on very strong and very hard. A massive spike in cases initially but now we're already seeing that caseload begin to decline in South Africa and to not see a commensurate spike in hospitalizations and deaths in the way that we did with the Delta variant.

And so, I'm fervently hoping now that this will be our experience as well. That even though right now in New York where I live we're seeing a very rapid increase with new records almost every single day of caseloads, we're not seeing new records of hospitalizations or deaths.

And I'm hoping that this will be our general experience around the country because you're going to see these spikes around the country in caseloads. At least I'm hoping that we will not see hospitalizations and deaths going up to the same level. But unfortunately, you're still seeing the disruption of daily life.

And again, at this point, as I said in the article, I'm not that worried about the health consequences of catching COVID the way I would have been two years ago before we were vaccinated. Now, when you're -- when you're -- when you're triple-vaccinated, I think you're in pretty condition to resist getting sick, but you're not in any condition to force people to keep open or to keep vacation plans. Those are the things that I think are so difficult that are -- that are now in peril.

HILL: Yes. You also note in the article that you blame the 100 million Americans or so who still have not gotten their shot. Blaming them for prolonging the pandemic, calling them blockheads. The reality is there are likely to be a number of Americans who will still refuse to get that shot. So, how do you move into 2022 with that?

BOOT: You know, I honestly don't know. It's just so depressing because this was one of my biggest sources of hope -- the fact that we developed these incredibly effective vaccines in record time. This had never been done. This was a medical miracle.

And we are not taking advantage of the medicine. It's out there. Anybody who wants to in the U.S. can get their shots. But you still have 40 percent of the population that's eligible that refuses to get vaccinated, and 70 percent has not yet gotten their third dose -- their booster shot.

So that's just incredibly depressing because not only are they putting their own health at risk, which I guess you can argue is their own judgment call, but they are putting all of society at risk for economic activity, for psychological and cultural benefits. Just any attempt to return to normal is much, much harder when our -- the number of people who are vaccinated is so low in the United States compared to other advanced democracies.

HILL: Max Boot, always good to talk with you. I really appreciated the piece.

BOOT: Thanks for having me.

[07:35:00]

HILL: Happy holidays. Keep that hope alive.

BOOT: You, too. Thank you.

HILL: Librarians are banding together against a push to ban books, and you're going to hear directly from some of them next.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: And a new warning about the decline of democracy from the Pulitzer Prize-winning creator of "The 1619 Project."

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BERMAN: Librarians say efforts to ban books reflective of their increasingly diverse schools are on the rise. Since September, school libraries in at least seven states have removed books challenged by community members. Now, one group of librarians is fighting back.

CNN's Evan McMorris-Santoro joins us now with what I think is a really interesting look at all of this, Evan.

EVAN MCMORRIS-SANTORO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, John, good morning. If you talk to librarians that work with children's books -- and I've talked to a lot of them over the past couple of weeks -- they'll tell you they get a lot of questions. Is this book appropriate for my kid? Is -- what's the right age for this book? They welcome questions like that.

[07:40:09]

But right now, something different is happening. They're being vilified. I went down to Texas to find out more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MCMORRIS-SANTORO (voice-over): This is a school librarian in Texas.

MCMORRIS-SANTORO (on camera): Why are you afraid to show your face?

TEXAS LIBRARIAN: Because there was a day not too long ago when I had to stop and think when they come in with handcuffs and they come in with a warrant for my arrest for alleging that I provided obscene material to minors, who am I going to call first?

MCMORRIS-SANTORO (voice-over): Across Texas protesters at school board meetings are accusing educators of forcing pornography or obscene content on children.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is not a political thing. This is not a witch hunt. This is genuine concern for children. It's abuse. It is grooming behavior. It's predatory.

MCMORRIS-SANTORO (voice-over): The anger is largely aimed at school libraries and many Texas politicians are on board.

In October, Republican State Legislator Matt Krause requested every school district in the state scour their libraries for a list of 850 books.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The infamous Texas list -- that the pattern seems to be books that are representative of LGBTQIA on subjects and characters and topics. Books that may contain depictions or narratives of sexual violence, survivor stories. Some books that are about racism.

MCMORRIS-SANTORO (voice-over): The list includes "New Kid," a graphic novel about a Black student's struggles fitting in in a majority-white school; "The Letter Q: Queer Writers' Notes to Their Younger Selves"; and "The Cider House Rules," a coming of age story that features a character who performs abortions.

Republican Gov. Greg Abbott took things a step further, ordering officials to investigate any criminal activity in public schools after complaints about two LGBTQ-themed books he said were pornographic.

MARY WOODARD, PRESIDENT-ELECT, TEXAS LIBRARY ASSOCIATION: I have never experienced anything like that before where a government agency or any kind of government entity was interested in specifically what kinds of books were in the library.

MCMORRIS-SANTORO(voice-over): The Texas Library Association is traditionally a pretty sleepy advocacy group but the heated rhetoric is forcing that to change. Last week, the group set up an anonymous hotline for librarians afraid of job consequences.

WOODARD: School librarians don't go into this business to harm kids. They are working really, really hard to select books that represent everyone on their campus.

MCMORRIS-SANTORO (voice-over): This is happening all over the country. LGBTQ and racial-themed books written for children and young adults are facing powerful resistance. Educators are being put on notice.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is pornography, plain and simple, and it does not fbelong in our schools.

MCMORRIS-SANTORO (voice-over): Just since the start of the school year, the American Library Association has tracked more than 230 book challenges nationwide. The ALA says there's been a dramatic uptick in challenges to books featuring LGBTQ and racial themes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: LGBTQIA, plus students like me, who are being harassed for not conforming to antiquated notions of gender roles and how they should express themselves.

CAROLYN FOOTE, RETIRED LIBRARIAN, CO-FOUNDER, #FREADOM FIGHTERS: Here we go -- yay. Here we go.

MCMORRIS-SANTORO (on camera): There you go.

FOOTE: There it is.

MCMORRIS-SANTORO (voice-over): Librarians are starting to fight back in a very librarian way.

FOOTE: And this week we're sharing books that were gifts in people's lives. And so, I'm going to kick this off by sending the first -- my first tweet from our #FReadom Friday account.

MCMORRIS-SANTORO (voice-over): Carolyn Foote is a retired librarian and one of the founders of the group #Freadom Fighters. In just a month it's become the grassroots way librarians under threat find and help each other.

FOOTE: It's amazing how widespread these book challenges are. People are contacting us, like, privately from all over the country saying can you help me?

BECKY CALZADA, CO-FOUNDER, #FREADOM FIGHTERS: Scared, nervous, unsure, worried.

FOOTE: Worried they might lose their jobs.

CALZADA: Yes, I've heard that, too, or I'm hearing this from my district or they don't know this. What do I do?

FOOTE: They're facing pressure -- external pressure. Like, what if I'm called out at a board meeting or someone's in front of my house? So, really, it's a time when people need a lot of support.

MCMORRIS-SANTORO (voice-over): Librarians helping librarians so librarians can get back to helping kids.

CALZADA: I grew up reading "Trumpet of the Swan" and "Little House on the Prairie." I mean, there were no Hispanic girls. That's a disservice to kids. And so, we work really hard as librarians to make sure that kids have books that they can see themselves in, but we also want to offer books where kids can learn about other kids' lives.

[07:45:06]

FOOTE: And who knows that that's something that would get you demonized.

MCMORRIS-SANTORO (voice-over): Governor Greg Abbott's office didn't respond when we asked for comment on what librarians in Texas are telling us.

We also reached out to Matt Krause and stopped by his office.

MCMORRIS-SANTORO (on camera): (Knocking) Hello?

Do you think you're going to win this or do you think you're going to lose this?

TEXAS LIBRARIAN: It's not about whether I will win or lose this. I think it's plain (ph) in our culture and our society when we have to ask ourselves what do we stand to lose if we don't correct action and course now. We can't afford as a democracy to believe anything else that will correct this.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MCMORRIS-SANTORO: It's hard to put into words just how strange a moment this is for school librarians.

That woman that you saw who was afraid to show her face because of her job consequences -- she's added a security camera to her garage because she's afraid of what might happen if people find out about the books in her library. She told her kids it's for Amazon pirates.

But that's what we're dealing with right now. These conversations about books, this vilification of librarians is leading to real fear among the people who used to be really pillars of our community, right? The people who teach our kids how to read -- John.

BERMAN: A librarian afraid to show her face. That should tell you something.

Look, Evan, this is a really important nuanced look. Terrific job. I just want people to look back and search history to find out the connotation of banning books. What that means historically because it matters here. I really appreciate the reporting.

MCMORRIS-SANTORO: Thanks.

HILL: It really does. Such a great piece.

In a recent interview with the Associated Press, Pulitzer Prize- winning journalist, and creator of "The New York Times" magazine's "1619 Project," Nikole Hannah-Jones warned about the decline of American democracy, saying "We, as Americans, are going to be severely tested in the next year or two to decide, what are we willing to sacrifice to be the country that we believe that we are?"

Joining us now, Nikole Hannah-Jones, who is the creator of "The 1619 Project." I really appreciate you joining us this morning.

I think it's such an important thought-provoking question -- both that, and I hope you could hear Evan's piece. That Texas librarian, at the very end when she said what -- you know, we talked about what do we stand to lose.

As you look at where we are right now what do we stand to lose as a country by going down this road of banning books, by ignoring accurate history, and by vilifying people who are simply trying to make reading and history and accuracy available?

NIKOLE HANNAH-JONES, PULITZER PRIZE-WINNING STAFF WRITER, NEW YORK TIMES MAGAZINE (via Webex by Cisco): Thank you so much for having me on.

That was a deeply disturbing piece and very important, and I'm grateful that you all ran it because we are in very dangerous times. When you have librarians -- librarians are one of our greatest public goods. These are spaces -- you know, I wouldn't be where I am today without my public library, which allowed me as a child to go in and read about all of these different people and all of these different places and gain a different understanding of the world and my place in it.

And to think that is now a dangerous profession I think really -- it really is demonstrative of the warning that I and many others are trying to call out right now, which is our democracy is on the brink. I don't know that our institutions are going to hold with the assaults that we're seeing on voting rights, on the attempts to ban books, on these memory laws which they're calling anti-critical race laws but they're really anti-history laws. These are all means of stoking division and resentment and I don't think we quite know where we're going to go at this moment.

HILL: And sadly, they seem to be working in certain communities, right, as we're seeing it.

You also noted in that interview that we need to really ask ourselves specifically, as journalists, storytellers, narrators, if we're ringing the alarm bell in the right way. So, are we?

HANNAH-JONES: I think that there are certainly political journalists and others who are trying to. But I think there are -- there are far too many in our profession who are really normalizing what's happening right now in an attempt to be or appear objective and in an attempt to say well, we're going to treat both political parties equally when we clearly have, in this moment, one political party that is passing anti-democratic policies, that is upholding people with authoritarianism ideas.

We just saw Kyle Rittenhouse get a standing ovation and he is a young man who killed two people.

So, I think that we, as a profession, have to step up. We are the firewall for this democracy and I do not believe that firewall is holding right now.

[07:50:00]

HILL: What is your biggest concern if we were to look at -- you know, is it the adults who are leading this charge, right, and the -- I'm always struck by and so troubled by this anger and the vitriol, and the fact that this librarian said she had to put a camera up at her house. But we see it at school boards, right?

Is that group more concerning, or is it the impact on this next generation on the kids that are not only perhaps, in some instances, being raised with seeing that as reactions being OK but who are being potentially raised in a country where they're not getting the whole story and they may not even have access to a book?

HANNAH-JONES: I think that it's both. The immediate concern is clearly the adults who are trying to ban books. Who are coming to school board member -- school board meetings and threatening school boards. Who are making teachers afraid to teach a more accurate history and more accurate literature. But obviously, that is also setting a very dangerous example for our youth who will then grow up to have similar ideas.

I mean, the reason you ban a book is you are afraid that it will expand a child's mind. That it will give a child the understanding of their world. And I actually think if you look at the bans that are being -- excuse me, the books that are being banned and challenged, these are books about marginalized people. These are books that give us empathy for those in our society who are most vulnerable.

And we absolutely do not want to raise children who do not have empathy for those in our society who are marginalized because that is very dangerous and that is how we get more violence. That is how we get more laws and policies that are restrictive to people's rights and ability to live their lives.

So, I think we -- both of those concerns are very serious in this moment and we are not setting a good example for our youth right now.

HILL: That's such a great point and such an excellent point about empathy.

Really good to have you with us, Nikole. Thank you. HANNAH-JONES: Thank you so much.

HILL: Emergency rooms getting busier with COVID cases. Just ahead you'll hear from a doctor on the front lines.

BERMAN: And Fox defending one of its hosts after Dr. Anthony Fauci told NEW DAY this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES, CHIEF MEDICAL ADVISER TO THE PRESIDENT: The guy should be fired on the spot.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:56:49]

BERMAN: About 24 hours ago on this show, Dr. Anthony Fauci prescribed a pink slip for Fox host Jesse Watters. Fauci said Watters should be fired for using violent language to encourage people to ambush interview him, but will Fox take the doctor's advice?

CNN's Oliver Darcy joins me now. Look, Watters called on his audience to ambush Fauci with questions and go in for a rhetorical kill shot. That's what I asked Fauci about -- the rhetorical kill shot, Oliver. What's Fox saying?

OLIVER DARCY, CNN SENIOR MEDIA REPORTER: Well, John, Fox is being very supportive of Fauci -- or, sorry, of Watters amid this backlash. And that backlash started, like you said, when Watters was at this conservative conference and he used a kill shot metaphor to encourage students to ambush interview Dr. Anthony Fauci.

And Fox's support comes, as you note, after Fauci was on this program yesterday decrying the comments as awful and saying that this is what he believes should happen to the Fox host.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FAUCI: You have some guy out there saying that people should be giving me a kill shot to ambush me. I mean, what kind of craziness is there in society these days? That's awful that he said that.

And he's going to go, very likely, unaccountable. I mean, whatever network he's on is not going to do anything for him. I mean, that's crazy. The guy should be fired on the spot.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DARCY: And John, in that interview he predicted that Fox would not hold Watters accountable. It turns out he's right. Fox put out a statement yesterday defending Watters, saying that his words had been taken out of context. Of course, it's not really true. TEXT: "Based on watching the full clip and reading the entire

transcript, it's more than clear that Jesse Watters was using a metaphor for asking hard-hitting questions to Dr. Fauci about --

DARCY: And Fox also had him guest-hosting a primetime news show in addition to the regular show that he co-hosts called "THE FIVE" on Fox. And I should also note that when he was co-hosting "THE FIVE" he engaged in some more criticism of Fauci and that prompted one of his colleagues to joke that it was Fauci who should be the one fired on the spot. That prompted laughter among the co-hosts there.

So I think you could really say that not only is Fox dismissing concerns about what Watters said but they're quite literally laughing in his face.

BERMAN: Yes. No, indeed, they are.

Look, Watters was talking about ambush interviews -- that was the context there. But it was the language he used -- ambush, kill shot, dead, dead, dead -- that I think Fauci was responding to there.

President Biden commented on vaccine misinformation during his speech Tuesday, taking a really tough tone, Oliver.

DARCY: Yes. I think this was actually a really interesting, notable moment -- the president not only talking to Americans who are unvaccinated and vaccinated, but also talking and addressing the people who are promoting vaccine lies.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The unvaccinated are responsible for their own choices, but those choices have been fueled by dangerous misinformation on cable T.V. and social media. You know, these companies and personalities have been making money by peddling lies and allowing misinformation that can kill their own customers and their own supporters. It's wrong. It's immoral.

I call on the purveyors of these lies and misinformation to stop it. Stop it now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DARCY: Strong words from the president there yesterday. But as you might predict --