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Biden's Options on North Korea; Rosemary Sullivan is Interviewed about her Book on Anne Frank. Aired 8:30-9a ET

Aired January 18, 2022 - 08:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:30:00]

DON LEMON, CNN HOST, "DON LEMON TONIGHT": Dr. King did.

KASIE HUNT, CNN ANCHOR: Good trouble.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: John Lewis.

LEMON: It's good trouble. And people like to quote John Lewis as well.

BERMAN: Don, we talk about such weighty subjects here with you when you come on, but there is something we want to show you. It's about a weighty subject admittedly, but I'm curious whether or not it makes you smile a bit.

So, watch this. This is -- this is a TV host talking about vaccines.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): You damned antivaxxers, gaggle of morons! Stop with your (EXPLETIVE DELETED) and at least put on a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) face mask and stop hitting the brakes for the entire world! Yes, you antivaxxers, you are moron! Put on a face mask!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: That was not on "DON LEMON TONIGHT, by way.

HUNT: Could it be?

LEMON: I was going to say, it could have been. I mean I've gotten criticized for saying that we need to stop listening to the people and they should not be part of polite society, so to speak. You cannot expect -- by the way, he is all of us. You know, I want to get up -- I want to say, yes!

BERMAN: You're jealous. The bottom line is you're jealous now, right?

LEMON: I'm mad at hell and I'm not taking it anymore. Basically that was that moment.

He's right. He's right. Listen, the unvaccinated people in the U.S. are key to the -- to the reason that coronavirus, the variants are emerging. And that -- the reason I'm looking at the stats from the CDC, and the reason why it's replicating and mutating, it's because of unvaccinated people who are doing their own research online. I can't do my own research better than experts who have devoted their lives to medical and scientific research.

When I tell people, I say -- you know, they'll say, well, I've been doing my own research and last week I was in Miami. I said, how did you get to Miami. I flew. That's science. So, if you don't believe in science, why didn't you walk, right? If you -- if it -- it's, well, because I can't always follow the science. That's the reason that you're here. That's the reason that you don't have polio. That's the reason we don't see polio cases. That's the reason why we don't see smallpox cases is because your parents had the wherewithal and the sense to get you vaccinated as a child. So I don't understand --

HUNT: Or told that they had to.

LEMON: That you had to because what, we had to start doing things for the greater good of society and not for idiots who think that they can do their own research, that they are above the law and they can break the rules.

Australia. Novak Djokovic. Australia said no, no, no, no, no, we're going to look at the greater good of everyone in our society and you're not part of that. We don't care that you're the number one tennis player in the world. And good on them because they are keeping their population and their citizens, people who want to be good citizens, they're keeping them healthy and safe and alive. And not for someone who thinks that they can come in, do their own research, get Covid, spread it to other people, not wear masks, like the guy, the TV presenter said, and then infect all of us and keep all of us in the house, or from going to work, or from being able to do what we want to do.

That's it. I'm done. I'm off of my soapbox.

BERMAN: I doubt that's true. I doubt that you're off your soap box, a. B --

HUNT: You do have a show tonight, right?

LEMON: Yes, yes, I do.

BERMAN: I'm flying to Washington later today. And when I land, as soon as the plane touches down, I'm going to yell, that's science.

LEMON: Science. It's true. And hopefully everybody on the plane is wearing one of these.

HUNT: They have to, by law.

LEMON: Yes.

BERMAN: Don, it's so great to see you.

LEMON: It's great to see you.

And, by the way, we should -- we should not be surprised that the mayor of New York gets heckled. That's what New York City is.

BERMAN: Yes.

LEMON: I walked out in New York and someone will say, Don Lemon, (INAUDIBLE) you, right? And the next one will say, hey, Don Lemon, I love you. That's New York.

BERMAN: And as you say, that's science.

LEMON: That's science.

BERMAN: All right.

LEMON: And they're right. The first people are right. (INAUDIBLE).

BERMAN: Thanks for coming in.

LEMON: Thank you. It's always good to see you. And welcome aboard.

HUNT: Great to see you.

BERMAN: You can watch Don's show tonight and every night at 10:00 p.m.

All right, North Korea pulling off multiple missile launches since the beginning of the year. So who does the White House plan to do about that?

HUNT: And what happens when you drive your car across a frozen pond? Gee, I wonder. Breakthrough.

LEMON: She was a taking a selfie like she did.

HUNT: And then she's taking a selfie. We're going to -- yes, we're going to talk about that.

LEMON: Can you believe that?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:38:17]

HUNT: North Korea has been firing off missile after missile in the last month alone. The latest provocative move happened Monday. Pyongyang claims the precise target was hit after test firing two short-range ballistic missiles. So what is the Biden administration going to do about these launches? They're in violation of multiple U.N. Security Council resolutions. CNN's Ivan Watson joins us live.

Ivan, what do we know?

IVAN WATSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kasie, launches of missiles, clearly North Korea showing its displeasure to the rest of the world. We may be going back into one of those periods again where it uses missile launches to demonstrate that.

The State Department has con condemned this, saying it's a violation of U.N. Security Council resolutions but no expert I've talked to expect that that kind of condemnation will stop North Korea from its missile-launching spree.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

WATSON (voice over): Patriotic declarations on North Korean state television. Announcements of fresh missile launches.

North Korea has launched a salvo of six ballistic missiles in less than two weeks. On January 5th, what Pyongyang calls a hypersonic missile, another hypersonic missile on January 11th, two ballistic missiles fired from a train on January 14th, and two tactical guided missiles fired early Monday morning. Weapons tests that appear to be part of a plan laid out by North Korean leader Kim Jong-un more than a year ago.

DUYEON KIM, CENTER FOR A NEW AMERICAN SECURITY: Fundamentally, Kim Jong-un has basically ordered his people to make the type of weapons that he thinks will make North Korea become a very advanced nuclear power.

[08:40:02]

WATSON (on camera): Weapons experts say some of this month's launches didn't break any new ground. But North Korea also fired this new hypersonic missile, which at first revealed to the public last year, and the South Korean military confirmed, it flew at 10 times the speed of sound.

MELISSA HANHAM, STANFORD UNIVERSITY CENTER FOR INTERNATIONAL SECURITY AND COOPERATION: What North Korea is calling a hypersonic missile is really a ballistic missile at the base when it launches and then on the top it has a maneuverable war head, which means it can move in a way that is unexpected.

WATSON (voice over): This type of missile poses a new potential threat to the U.S. and its allies in Asia.

HANHAM: They're able to launch a missile in one direction and essentially turn a corner, which makes it very difficult for radar systems and interceptors to track it.

WATSON: The latest missile launches, a reminder of the flurry of missile tests North Korea conducted back in 2017. They sparked a war of words between Pyongyang and then-President Donald Trump. DONALD TRUMP, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: Rocket man should have been

handled a long time ago.

WATSON: Eventually, Trump and Kim staged three historic face-to-face meetings, and a lot of letter-writing.

JOSEPH YUN, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: We've had, what, you know, during Trump administration, by my count, 27 letters exchanged between Kim Jong-un and Donald Trump. Kim Jong-un, you know, wants that kind of attention.

WATSON: Former U.S. diplomat Joseph Yun advises the Biden administration to try harder to engage with the North Korean regime.

YUN: Otherwise, we are going to return to the bad, old days of 2017, which is really a crisis atmosphere.

WATSON: So far, Pyongyang has rejected multiple U.S. requests for talks.

In the meantime, the Biden administration imposed sanctions for the first time last week in response to North Korean missile launches, targeting North Korean and Russian nationals, as well as a Russian company accused of helping Pyongyang's weapons program.

North Korea accused Washington of gangster-like logic and launched two missiles the very same day. Clearly, the North Korean government does not want to be ignored.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WATSON: A final piece of important context here. North Korea, never wealthy, has been going through tough economic times because it's shut its boarders almost completely throughout the Covid pandemic and it's had low crop yields with this terrible flooding that's taken place.

And the government has even admitted that it's having food shortages. But that has not stopped it from investing scarce money and resources into its weapons programs.

Back to you.

HUNT: All right. Ivan Watson, thanks very much for that report.

Here's what else to watch today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ON SCREEN TEXT: 10:00 a.m. ET, SCOTUS oral arguments.

12:00 p.m. ET, White House briefing.

12:00 p.m. ET, Congress reconvenes.

(END VIDEO CLIP) BERMAN: This morning, devastating images from Tonga after the catastrophic volcano eruption. The latest on the damage and the search for survivors.

HUNT: Plus, Betty White's final pictures revealed.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:48:30]

BERMAN: Time now for the "5 Things to Know for Your New Day."

HUNT: (INAUDIBLE) bipartisan U.S. senators met with President Zelensky in Kevon (ph) Monday as Russia amass troops along the border. It was just announced that Secretary of State Antony Blinken is set to travel to Ukraine this week as well.

BERMAN: In a vote seen as the latest setback for abortion providers in Texas, a federal appeals court has sent a legal challenge posed by clinics back to the state supreme court for resolution. This could significantly delay any decision on the six-week abortion ban that went into effect on September 1st.

HUNT: And this just in, former New York City Mayor Bill de Blasio announcing on Twitter moments ago he will not be running for governor of New York. Instead, he says he'll, quote, devote every fiber of his being to fighting inequality in the state of New York.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She's on top of the car. She's going in. Hurry up.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: A woman whose car plunged into icy waters of a frozen river in Ottawa, in Canada, rescued by two quick thinking strangers and a kayak. The woman appeared to take a selfie as the car was sinking beneath her. Police say she was not injured. She's been charged with dangerous operation of a motor vehicle.

And the assistant to beloved late actress Betty White sharing one of White's final photos to commemorate what would have been her 100th birthday. Kiersten Mikelas says she believes the photo of White looking vibrant and well was taken on December 20th, just 11 days before she passed away. Looks beautiful.

HUNT: She does look beautiful.

[08:50:00]

All right, those are "5 Things" you need to know for your new day. We're going to have more on those stories all day on CNN and cnn.com. And don't forget to download the "5 Things" podcast every morning. Go to cnn.com/5things. Coming up next, who betrayed Anne Frank to the Nazis? That question has lingered for more than 70 years. And it may now have an answer. It's an incredible story.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BERMAN: So, who betrayed Anne Frank? This has been a lingering question for decades since the famous diarist and her family were outed to the Nazis in 1944. Now a new cold case investigation using modern techniques has identified a surprise suspect, a Jewish notary named Arnold van den Bergh. The team investigators say he probably gave up the Franks to save his own family. The research is documented in a new book, "The Betrayal of Anne Frank." It's by Rosemary Sullivan. And she joins us now.

Rosemary, this is fascinating. Talk to us about the significance of this discovery. You don't say it was definitely van den Bergh, but you just talk about the evidence that points to it and the significance of that discovery.

ROSEMARY SULLIVAN, AUTHOR, "THE BETRAYAL OF ANNE FRANK: A COLD CASE INVESTIGATION": Well, as you say, it's been 77 years since the arrest, and so to be absolutely definite is very difficult. We have circumstantial evidence, but it indicates that an anonymous note that was given to Otto Frank after he returned from the Auschwitz camp, having lost his entire family, the anonymous note identified van den Bergh as the person who had given over addresses of Jews in hiding.

I think that's important. Van den Bergh did not know who might be at those addresses. Indeed even if people were still in hiding at those addresses. But he used that list, it would seem, to gain his freedom and the freedom of his family.

And one of the significant points is that there was never any indication that van den Bergh was in a concentration camp.

HUNT: So then the sense is that essentially he decided to do this in order to avoid that fate? I mean what more do we know about him as a person and the situation he was in?

SULLIVAN: Well, you know, he was a prominent Jewish notary. That's a very distinguished position.

[08:55:01]

He was a collector of 17th and 18th century art, and as such had friends among naturalized Germans in Holland. He was working for the refugees who were fleeing Germany up to the war, and he used every means that was available to him from the Nazi hierarchy, they had special spheres or stamps you could use to delay deportation. They had something called the Calimire (ph) status where you could prove that you weren't Jewish and get the J taken off of your passport.

And, in the end, when it finally came to being completely cornered, it would seem that addresses that he had obtained, either from the Jewish council, from the resistance, or perhaps he had bought from one of the -- as they called themselves Jew hunters, he used those addresses to protect himself and his family.

BERMAN: Just historically, people should know, he had been a member of a so-called Jewish council, which were institutions that were used by the Nazis to oppress the Jews. They formed these councils --

SULLIVAN: (INAUDIBLE).

BERMAN: Exactly, right, of Jews and say, unless you help us govern the Jews in this city or country, we will kill you or your family. So, it was a means of oppression, a diabolical means of oppression there. And people just need to take that into consideration when they look at the totality of this.

Rosemary, I'm curious, why is it so important 77 years later to get these answers to what happened to Anne Frank?

SULLIVAN: You know, because it's in a much larger context. First of all, Anne Frank's story, while it is a universal story, is also a Dutch story. And so the people who initiated this investigation, Tis Bians (ph) and Peter van Twisk, wanted the Dutch to face the complexity of the Second World War.

But, furthermore, I think it's a kind of warning. You watch the -- Otto Frank, who's such a remarkable human being, in '33, leaving Germany after a dinner party in which a friend says have -- hearing that Hitler has been elected chancellor, let's see what the man can do. Then you see the constant use of propaganda and lies and rhetoric and national violence building to war.

So, war is looked at in this context as what it really is, not heroic, good against bad or whatever, but, in fact, the daily grind of fear and violence, threatened at every -- every (INAUDIBLE).

BERMAN: And suffering.

SULLIVAN: That's right.

BERMAN: Rosemary Sullivan, it is fascinating. Thank you so much for joining us this morning.

SULLIVAN: Thank you.

BERMAN: And CNN's coverage continues right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)