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Trump's Legal Jeopardy Intensifies with Georgia Criminal Probe; U.S and Russia Meeting Lasts Only 90 Minutes Amid Invasion Fears; Rep. Kevin McCarthy (R-CA) to GOP, Quit Trying to Hold Speaker Vote Over My Head. Aired 7-7:30a ET

Aired January 21, 2022 - 07:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


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[07:00:00]

JOHN BERMAN, CNN NEW DAY: Such great music. Good morning to our viewers here in the United States and all around the world. It is Friday, January 21st. I'm John Berman. Brianna is on tonight. Kasie Hunt is here with me this morning. Nice to see you.

KASIE HUNT, CNN NEW DAY: Nice to see you, too, John, and what an icon.

BERMAN: Right? I mean, there's just no voice that sounds like that.

And we do begin with sad, breaking news. The death of rock star and actor Meat Loaf, the Grammy Award-winning singer was born Marvin Lee Aday. He got tagged with the nickname Meat Loaf when he was had he eight years old. It stuck. His Bat Out of Hell album is one of the all-time best sellers in film. You saw it right there.

My favorite role of his was as Eddie in the Rocky Horror Picture Show.

HUNT: Also iconic, also an amazing film.

Now, the cause of death, of course, of Meat Loaf, has not been released. In a statement on his Facebook page, his family said that he died with his wife, Deborah, by his side, calling him an inspiring artist and beautiful man. They also had a message for all of his fans, which I think includes both me and John, from his heart to your souls, don't ever stop rocking. Meat Loaf was 74.

John, it's amazing how much his music is just part of the landscape of our lives over the last so many decades.

BERMAN: Well, you know, in the thousands of hours of classic rock I listened to, he was in there. Every three hours or so, you would hear either Bat Out of Hell or Paradise by the Dashboard Light. And I love it. They're both mini operas. And he would just belt it. He just would. It was fantastic.

HUNT: Yes. Still, I'm not sure if we have the answer to the question, he will do anything for love but he won't do that. I don't know if I want to know the answer but I guess now we may never find out.

BERMAN: Now, on the Rocky Horror Picture Show, I never understood it, I never could really tell what the heck was going on in that film. I was young. But Eddie was so cool. It was just such a cool role. And he always was -- he was all-in, all-in on whatever he did, including like The Apprentice much later even than that.

HUNT: Much later in his life. And I actually saw him on the campaign trail. He played -- serenaded, in fact, Mitt Romney when he was running for president in 2012. So, he has seen a lot in the course of his life.

BERMAN: Of course, he did. If you had to pick two people, two peas in a pod, Meat Loaf and Mitt Romney. Our thoughts are with his family today.

HUNT: Indeed.

BERMAN: Also this morning, a new legal landscape, growing legal peril for Donald Trump. The district attorney in Fulton County, Georgia, has requested a special grand jury to investigate the former president's efforts to overturn the 2020 election results in Georgia. This phone call that we have all heard now could be exhibit A.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT (on camera): All I want to do is this, I just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: That was the D.A. Fani Willis -- that was Donald Trump, obviously, but the D.A., Fani Willis, has been investigating possible criminal disruptions for the election for nearly a year now. Her request to seat a special grand jury might indicate she is seriously pursuing criminal charges against Trump or his allies.

HUNT: And this really has been Trump's legal week from hell, and it began when New York's attorney general announced she had uncovered significant evidence of fraud inside the Trump Organization. She wants to question the ex-president and his daughter, Ivanka, and son, Don Jr.

Then on Wednesday, the Supreme Court cleared the way for the release of presidential records from the Trump White House to the January 6th committee. Those are records that could shed light on the events leading up to and, of course, during the insurrection.

We also learned the January 6th panel subpoenaed and obtained the phone records of Eric Trump and Kimberly Guilfoyle. Kimberly is, of course, engaged to Donald Trump Jr.

Now, the committee has sent a letter to Ivanka Trump requesting that she appear for questioning.

CNN's Sara Murray is following all of the latest developments here.

[07:05:01]

Sara, good morning.

SARA MURRAY, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Good morning. Well, it is really just a brutal week for the Trump family. But for Donald Trump himself, I think the big question is, could he actually face some legal charges, some criminal charges when it comes to his efforts to try to overturn the election result?

You know, when we look in Georgia, the D.A. there has been looking into his activities for nearly a year. And it all stems back to that phone call, that infamous phone call, that Donald Trump had Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger. Let's listen to that just one more time.

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TRUMP: All I want to do is this. I just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MURRAY: A pretty explicit call to just find the votes that Donald Trump would need to win the state of Georgia.

So, the district attorney is now saying, look, we need more evidence, we need more witnesses. There are some people are not going to cooperate with us unless we get a subpoena. She points explicitly to Brad Raffensperger. We know they got a lot of information from the Georgia Secretary of State's Office already, but it is clear she wants to talk to him in person, as well as a number of others, and put them before a grand jury.

And that could go beyond Georgia state officials. It could mean she subpoenas Rudy Giuliani, it could mean she subpoenas Mark Meadows. She's made it very clear she is not just looking at Donald Trump's activities in Georgia, she's looking at the loyalists around Donald Trump who are also helping with this campaign.

One thing that's really clear, you don't ask for a special grand jury. You don't go this far unless you are seriously looking at potential criminal charges against Donald Trump or those in his inner circle.

HUNT: Yes, no, it's a great point. Sara Murray, thank you so much for your reporting this morning. We really appreciate it.

BERMAN: Joining us now is Paul Rosenzweig, former Department of Justice Prosecutor, former Senior Counsel to Ken Starr. Paul, great to see you, a lot to talk to you about.

First, quickly, let's just talk about Georgia, the special grand jury, and what specific legal jeopardy the former president might be in there. PAUL ROSENZWEIG, FORMER JUSTICE DEPARTMENT PROSECUTOR: Well, Georgia law, as ever state law requires, prohibits interference with election activities along a broad range of prohibitions, most importantly fraud and false declarations relating to electoral counts. Obviously, it seems to me the Georgia state district -- Georgia district attorney -- Fulton County district attorney is trying to determine whether or not she will have enough evidence to back up a charge of that nature against either Trump or one of his employees, one of the other White House employees.

Clearly, the tape is an important, first piece of evidence. As you said, it would be exhibit 1. But prosecutors need to convince a jury with live witnesses, and that means Mr. Raffensperger, some of the other election officials in Georgia possibly, as well as people on President Trump's side of that telephone call, and other activity that that call might implicate.

HUNT: So, Paul, there's been some conversations among the political Twitter audio, if you will, reporters who have covered Trump that he might actually be convinced to run for president in 2024 to try and get out of some of the consequences of all of these investigations. Would becoming president in 2024, 2025, protect him from the Georgia investigation?

ROSENZWEIG: Well, as a legal matter, no. The president does not have legal authority to stop an independent state investigation. And so long as this district attorney is in office, she has the full authority of Georgia state law.

That having been said, a newly elected president will have a lot of political levers to pull, including, for example, possibly trying to convince the Georgia governor and the Georgia state legislators to change Georgia state law and using the tools of federal persuasion, if you will, to try and convince them to do so. So, no, he doesn't get to stop the Georgia investigation or New York ones for that matter, but an elected president is a very powerful man.

BERMAN: Paul, it's been such a busy week and so many things have happened, that the huge ruling by the Supreme Court, I think we're only beginning to understand the full consequences of it. Because what they decided was that the huge constitutional issue of who gets to determine executive privilege, former or current president, they didn't even have to weigh in on that because appeals court ruling, saying that Trump had to turn over -- the National Archives could turn over to the January 6th committee all of those documents, that Trump had no privilege over that information because of the actions that they entail. And if there's privilege regarding those documents, doesn't that expand the full range of who could be compelled to talk, why they could be compelled to talk, and just the nature of the investigation?

[07:10:03]

ROSENZWEIG: Oh, very much so. It is, as you said, actually a more significant ruling than the limitation of the archivist in the January 6th committee. It is pretty much a reaffirmation of the earlier holdings in the cases against Nixon that a president's criminal conduct is outside the bounds of the executive privilege and a president cannot assert a privilege to prevent investigation of his alleged criminal activity. This has implications both for the January 6th committee's legislative investigation and I think more importantly, for the Department of Justice's investigation.

To take but one example, I suspect strongly that they were waiting on this decision in order to make a determination on whether or not to bring the contempt charges against Mark Meadows for failing to testify. With this decision, Meadows has almost no legal defense to stand on, and the charges against him will be much easier to prove and he'll be in a much weaker position in defending against them.

BERMAN: Can I just follow-up on that, because I do think it's important. In other words, if the Supreme Court says there's no privilege around these documents from that day, it's highly unlikely they would think there is any privilege surrounding conversations on that day, correct?

ROSENZWEIG: That's absolutely right. No, the courts have generally not identified any difference in the form in which the advice to a president is given. The privilege protects important advice, like what Secretary of State Blinken might be telling President Biden right now about the Ukraine invasion, or something like that. But it doesn't matter whether Secretary Blinken is saying that orally to President Biden in the Oval Office or sending him a memorandum from his trip. And the same would be true of Mark Meadows and any one of President Trump's employees. The form of the advice doesn't matter. What the Supreme Court has said is that none of that advice as it relates to criminal activity is privileged in any way, manner, shape or form. And that's got to scare a lot of President Trump's confidantes.

BERMAN: Yes. I think it's really important, and it didn't get a lot of attention this week. Paul Rosenzweig, thank you so much.

ROSENZWEIG: Thanks for having me.

BERMAN: So, this morning's meeting in Geneva between Secretary of State Antony Blinken and his Russian counterpart has just ended. We're told it lasted about 90 minutes. The two sides sat down as the U.S. tries to defuse the threat of a Russian invasion in Ukraine.

CNN's Clarissa Ward is live in Kyiv, in Ukraine, this morning. 90 minutes, what do we know about this meeting?

CLARISSA WARD, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: So, what we are hearing, John, and we have only heard, I should say, from the foreign minister, Sergey Lavrov, who I believe is still continuing to talk, but he said, in terms of the fact that it lasted 90 minutes, the punctuality is not a bad thing, it was expected to last 90 minutes, that primarily he said the Russians were essentially articulating or clarifying some questions that the Americans had about the nature of their demands or requests. He said that the Americans have said they will now go away and formulate a written response, as the Russians had asked, and that will be presented sometime during the course of the next week. He also said that he did not rule out the possibility after that written statement or responses provided from the Americans of some kind of another summit between the two sides. So, reading between the lines early on, but it appears that possibly we have not yet reached a complete dead end with regards to the possibility of a diplomatic solution. Diplomacy is still continuing.

I will say, though, we haven't yet heard from Secretary of State Antony Blinken. We don't know exactly what his response will have been to the meeting. But it seems that this went pretty much as expected, at least in the sense that the Russians are presenting it, John.

BERMAN: Clarissa, I just want to follow up, because I think the question everyone has, is the situation better, worse or same right now? It seems what you are suggesting is if there is a possibility for further discussion, that means maybe incrementally better?

WARD: I think maybe because it wasn't worst, that that equals better, but, really, it's just the same, if that makes any sense whatsoever. And it's important to underscore what's happening in the background though. The Ukrainian Defense Ministry just released a statement today saying that the Russian military is continuing to move supplies by rail and by road to the separatists, pro-Russian separatists in the eastern part of this country. He said something like 7,000 tons of fuel, several units of tanks, artillery, ammunition, mortars. So, there's no sense at all that the pressure is being lifted.

Absolutely, one would be remiss to say that the specter of war or a potential invasion has been mitigated at all, but at least it does not appear that diplomacy has yet reached a complete dead end, John.

BERMAN: All right. Clarissa Ward, thank you so much.

[07:15:00]

Obviously, we're going to wait to hear from Secretary of State Antony Blinken, whom we could hear from any moment. That will be crucial.

HUNT: All right. Also joining us from Kyiv, Ukraine, the senior editor of Coffee or Die Magazine covering the conflict in Ukraine, Nolan Peterson. Nolan is also U.S. Air Force veteran who served in Afghanistan and Iraq.

So, you heard Clarissa's reporting there. What is your sense of whether diplomacy still has a chance here?

NOLAN PETERSON, SENIOR EDITOR, COFFEE OR DIE MAGAZINE: I think many Ukrainians are waiting with baited breath to see what happens. It's a scary time in Ukraine right now. And that's saying something because this country has already been at war now eight years. You have city officials in Kyiv now preparing bomb shelters and reviewing evacuation plans for the city. Air defenses are going up across the country and civilians are banding together to defend their hometowns.

Many Ukrainians now are starting to consider tough choices they may have to make in the coming weeks, such as whether to flee their homes in the dead of winter to ride out a possible Russian siege. We are looking potentially at a major conventional war between two industrialized adversaries, a type of conflict that this continent hasn't seen in generations.

The ongoing war in the Donbas has killed about 14,000 people. But that many people could die within a few days of the kind of war we're looking at. Right now, 44 million Ukrainians are living under the constant threat of potential Russian bombs or artillery or rocket attacks sometime in the next few weeks.

HUNT: And what do those people want from the United States of America and from NATO?

PETERSON: Well, I think a clear point that I think should be made is that, in 2014, when Ukraine had its revolution of dignity, the protesters braved sniper fire for the sake of a pro-democratic, pro- western future free of Russian oppression. And they had been fighting in the Donbas to keep that dream alive for eight years. But the reason they're fighting isn't to join NATO. They are fighting to remain a democratic, sovereign country, free from Russian oppression.

I think it's important to note also that over the eight years that I have covered this conflict, the majority of volunteer Ukrainian soldiers I have met have been Russian speakers from the eastern part of the country. So, Ukrainians from all regions have set their country on a cultural, economic and political divorce from Russia. And anything Moscow says to the contrary about a civil war or whatever is a lie. And there are many Ukrainians are dead set on seeing their country to become a prosperous, stable democracy.

And I think one more point that's important to make as well as a military veteran is that, while all the western military aid is extremely helpful and it means a lot as far as showing symbols solidarity between the west and the Ukraine with the threats that they are currently under, I think we should also start thinking about sending humanitarian aid. Because there is the potential now for millions of displaced people in the dead of winter, and at this point, the possible Russian reinvasion in the next few weeks, it may be too late at this point to measurably increase Ukraine's ability to militarily defend itself. At this point, we might need to start thinking about the human disaster that may be around the corner.

HUNT: Nolan Peterson with some dire but very important points about the people of Ukraine in the middle of all of this, thanks very much for your time this morning.

BERMAN: We have new reporting this morning on maneuvering among House Republicans, House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy, in a way, laying down the law.

CNN's Melanie Zanona, part of the team breaking this story. Melanie, what's going on here?

MELANIE ZANONA, CNN CAPITOL HILL REPORTER: Well, as you know, Kevin McCarthy is not usually known for his tough parenting-style with his conference, but my colleague, Mike Warren, and I learned about this episode that happened in December, in which McCarthy lashed out at some of the hard line members, like Marjorie Taylor Greene, who started laying out demands in exchange for a future speaker vote.

This is what McCarthy told members, according to Tom Cole, a member who was present. McCarthy said, if any of you come to me and tell me that you are not going to vote for me unless I do something, I'm going to do exactly the opposite, even if I agree with you. And then McCarthy went on to warn members that they might not get their desired committee assignments if they are publicly infighting and lashing out at each other.

So, I think this episode really just underscores the tightrope that McCarthy is walking in his quest to win a majority and the speaker's gavel. And I also think it's really telling, John, that it wasn't Greene's inflammatory rhetoric that set McCarthy off, it was the threat to his speakership that really touched a nerve, because becoming speaker has been a lifelong dream for McCarthy. He is perhaps closer than ever to fulfilling that dream.

[07:20:01]

But he has made a strategic calculation that he needs these hard line members and these Trump supporters in his corner in order to achieve that. And, I mean, he is probably right. Look at 2015, the last time he tried to run for speaker, it was the House freedom caucus that denied his bid.

But the problem is, as McCarthy has catered to these members, he has also emboldened them. So, they become more extreme, they become more vocal, they're harder to rein in, they're clashing with some of the party's moderates who you need to win back the majority if you're a Republican. So, it's created some of these nasty spats spilling out in public view. And that really is the perfect example of the balancing act, the tricky balancing act that McCarthy is going to have to do over these next ten months. John?

BERMAN: Interesting. It sounds like what you are saying is, Kevin McCarthy's priority is Kevin McCarthy.

ZANONA: Absolutely.

BERMAN: Melanie Zanona, thank you very much, interesting reporting.

HUNT: All right. Political party preferences in the U.S. appear to be shifting. According to a new Gallup poll out this week, Democrats started of 2021 with a strong standing, a nine-point edge over Republicans. But by the end of last year, that advantage had not only evaporated, it had turned into a five-point edge for Republicans. The last time things looked this good for the GOP was back in 1995.

Joining us is now Michael Smerconish, CNN Political Commentator and Host of CNN's Smerconish. Michael, it's great to have you on this morning.

What's your reaction to the shifts that this poll shows? MICHAEL SMERCONISH, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, Kasie, what you just identified is undeniable, right? There was definitely by the end of the year gain for Republicans where Democrats had a strong hand at the outset. But the burr in my saddle over this data and the way that it gets reporting is as follows. True that Gallup says 46 percent identify as D or leaning D in comparison to 43 percent who say R or leaning R.

But here's the problem. They asked two questions. When they first say to 12,000 people, big sample size, how do you self-identify? Guess what? 42 percent say, I'm an independent. I'm not a Republican or a Democrat. And then there's a follow-up and they say, well, yes, but, which way do you lean between the parties? And then it gets whispered down the lane as this, oh, the Ds have a slight edge over the Rs. And I guess the beef that I have with it is that there's been a trend for the last decade where an increasing number, and I'm going to say, of us, want to be regarded as independent.

And the last point I'll make is this. Yes, I understand, there is some cache that some people want to be perceived as independent, but some of us really mean it. And we are greater in number than the Republicans or the Democrats if only someone would seize the power that rests in the middle of the country.

BERMAN: Michael, First of all, I have to say with both you and Kasie here, it's altogether too much Philadelphia. There are FCC rules against this.

HUNT: There's never too much Philadelphia.

BERMAN: We're getting calls. The phones are ringing off the hook from viewers right now.

Michael, there's another poll number which struck me, and that's from NBC News and The Wall Street Journal, where they asked Republican voters whether or not they are more of a supporter of the Republican Party or more of Trump. And now 56 percent say the Republican Party, 36 percent say Trump. This is a change. This is different. And I actually think it's one of the more significant things that people need to be watching over the next 12 months.

SMERCONISH: So, it really caught my eye as well. And I think, John, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it's the worst that Trump has done on that affiliation question since NBC has been asking it in their survey.

Now, I guess if I'm the former president or his supporters, I say, well, out of sight, out of mind. And instead, this is much more referendum on Joe Biden than anything else because Biden's approval in that same poll is only at 43 percent.

But the question is when he's back in the public eye, does that number rise, or is it less his party today than at any point since he left the White House?

HUNT: Michael, my question sort of more broadly is what do you think these numbers mean? Are they really a reflection of the people that we're talking about, in this case, Trump and Biden, or are they more reflective of, especially in the case of Biden, people's general happiness with their lives, or unhappiness with their lives? What is your sense on the Biden disapprove, in particular?

SMERCONISH: Well, I think that there is a funk in the country. And I think that he gets held accountable for a variety of factors, some of which are frankly within his control, and he needs to be held accountable and some are probably not. But that just goes with the office.

But, Kasie, what I think most explains Joe Biden's diminishing approval numbers is the lack of a split screen. Because when he was elected, come on, it was a referendum on Donald Trump. And that's why I think, primarily, he was elected.

[07:25:01]

That side-by-side comparison is now missing.

So, when a pollster calls and asks you, what do you make of the job that the president is doing, you're no longer putting him in comparison to Trump. Instead, you're evaluating Joe Biden on the merits. And I think that's a worst position for him to be in.

What I'm really saying is his numbers will probably rise when there is a split screen comparison if we ever get to that point.

HUNT: All right. Michael Smerconish, thank you very much, sir. And it is wonderful to have another Philadelphian on the program this morning. We'll all be watching your show tomorrow at 9:00 A.M. Eastern.

SMERCONISH: Thank you.

HUNT: Coming up here, we're keeping an eye on Geneva. Secretary of State Antony Blinken will speak any moment now. The Russian foreign minister just said he doesn't rule out a Biden-Putin summit. We're going to have more ahead.

BERMAN: Plus --

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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I can't give you what I have right now and I don't get it. I don't get it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: That was Adele making a tearful announcement hours before she was set to start his Las Vegas residency.

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