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U.S. Justice Department Investigating Fake Electoral College Certifications from 2020 Falsely Declaring Former President Trump Winner of Presidential Election; Ukrainian Ambassador to United Nations Interviewed on Possible Russian Incursion into Ukraine. Aired 8-8:30a ET

Aired January 26, 2022 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:00:00]

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: The department is reviewing the fake Electoral College certifications from 2020 that falsely declared Former President Trump the winner of seven states, states that he lost. Deputy Attorney General Lisa Monaco told CNN's Evan Perez the Justice Department will address conduct of any kind and at any level that is part of an assault on our democracy.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: The fake Electoral College certifications were signed by Trump supporters who falsely claimed to be the rightful electors in Nevada, Arizona, New Mexico, Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Georgia. And some of the bogus certifications were actually sent to the national archives in mid-December of 2020 by top state Republican Party officials.

BERMAN: -- federal prosecutor and the author of the wonderful new book "Just Pursuit, A Black Prosecutor's Fight for Fairness," Laura Coates. Laura, CNN broke this yesterday. The Deputy A.G. Lisa Monaco confirming there is an investigation, an active investigation into these fake Electoral College certificates, which were something we know that Rudy Giuliani and other senior players in Trump world were involved with. So how significant is the fact that we now know such an investigation exists?

LAURA COATES, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: This is extremely significant, and one that should actually be happening. Remember, it is not just the hypothetical conversations that were happening in some backroom or war room about I wonder what it would look like if he tried to overturn an election or derail a certification process. You had actual steps, actual overt steps in the action in trying to create the perception that the lawful, the real legitimate slate of electors were not actually that. And so you had but for the actions and decision of the then Vice

President Mike Pence to not follow the advice, not to go through this, even having him on the floor that day use particular language, as you recall, John, to suggest that there was essentially two different sets and this is what was going to be looked at and this was legitimate, it was far more nefarious and thought out and strategic than we even believed. And so it is right that in a country where we have laws against trying to interfere with elections, laws against fraudulent activity, that the DOJ would look at this issue.

BERMAN: Can I ask you, the fact that the Deputy Attorney General Lisa Monaco said this to Evan Perez in this terrific interview, again, this was something that CNN broke, the fact that she said it doesn't seem accidental. It seems she wouldn't have answered the question unless she wanted that information out there, the whole DOJ did. Why would they want this public at this point?

COATES: Well, think about the idea of how the public is viewing the -- what perceives as the contemplative action of the Department of Justice, questions about the length of the investigation, is anything really getting done? There have been accusations levied against Merrick Garland, the attorney general, about whether or not he was contemplative to the point of being paralyzed in his thought or whether he was really dotting every "i" and crossing every "t." So I suspect in part it was said to essentially say, listen, this is transparency, we're not sitting on our hands doing nothing. We are doing things. But she very well could have said what is more a customary thing, which is we don't comment on the existence of any investigation whether it's there. She said that I won't talk further about this ongoing investigation, which is very, very telling, given she is known for her precise and deliberate language.

BERMAN: As I said, Rudy Giuliani is known to have been involved with this effort for the fake certificates, which were out of the public. To be clear, this was not something that they tried to hide. But how nervous should Giuliani be this morning?

COATES: Well, this and you add that to the pile of other things going on, since the big lie and his role in it, ideas about the Dominion voting machines, ideas about metastasizing the big lie, whatever role he may have had in individual jurisdiction as well, it is a pile-on, and not one that's not justified.

Remember, it is talking about the anatomy of the big lie here. It wasn't just said one time, it wasn't spewed in one conference room or even one courtroom. This was part of a concerted effort, it's appearing more and more, to try to subvert the will of the people and the certification process of the Electoral College. And so anyone who had a hand in it, don't think that by virtue of being an attorney that somehow a privileged argument will shield you. If you're involved in criminal behavior, if somebody else knows about it, of course, the privilege, of course, is then conditional and qualified, or if you engage in the behavior yourself.

There are many people now we're seeing whose fingerprints are all over it, and I'm looking more and more, John, to what the January 6th committee is doing and the timing of the people they have chosen to ask of late to come and appear, after hundreds of people have already given information. I wonder now if they are corroborating what they already know, or they're actually having revelatory information from any of these people. I suspect it is the former.

BERMAN: I will tell you, and this is a discussion for another time, court after court after court has decided that privilege does not shield a wide range of people who are being investigated for the January 6th insurrection at this point. That's worth watching going forward.

[08:05:08]

Laura Coates -- Laura Coates, thank you very much for being with us this morning.

(LAUGHTER)

COATES: Thank you.

KEILAR: President Biden says he made it clear to Russian President Vladimir Putin that any invasion of Ukraine would bring severe consequences to Russia, including severe sanctions against Putin himself. This morning, Russian troops are amassing on the border as the U.S. calls the invasion threat imminent. Ukraine, though, disagrees.

So let's discuss this with Ukraine's ambassador to the United Nations, Sergiy Kyslytsya. Ambassador, I just want to thank you so much for being with us this morning. Your country is saying an invasion is not imminent. The U.S. says it is imminent. So which is it?

SERGIY KYSLYTSYA, UKRAINIAN AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED NATIONS: In fact, first of all, good morning, everyone. And I would need to say that there is no contradiction between the Ukrainian and American assessment of the position. That's basically playing with words. The invasion is possible, and we are all on record alert. So there is no different between the U.S. administration and the Ukrainian administration about what is going on at the borders of Ukraine.

KEILAR: But there is. One is saying, yes, it's imminent. One is saying, no, it's not.

KYSLYTSYA: I would need to repeat that we agree with the intelligence assessment that the Russian troops are amassed at the Ukrainian border at very impressive, unprecedented numbers, which is not still in for the Russians to go in Ukraine and to hold the Ukrainian territory for prolonged period of time, which does not mean they cannot do that.

KEILAR: OK. There is a different characterization. So I think especially for audiences that are trying to make sense of where things are, I just wanted to kind of get to the bottom of that. But nonetheless, how soon are you expecting a potential invasion?

KYSLYTSYA: The invasion can take anytime now, but we should not panic, and we do not panic. I can only speak about what we do here with the partners in the United Nations in New York. And I need to assure you that all the partners, all the members of the Security Council have daily consultations, and we are ready to act anytime soon.

KEILAR: President Biden was pretty clear when he was talking about personally sanctioning Vladimir Putin, something other presidents have shied away from. He is really looking at that. Would that deter Putin?

KYSLYTSYA: The sanctions needed even as preemptive measure, and we welcome what the White House is saying, and we commend to the very strong position of the White House as well as position of the Prime Minister of the U.K. Boris Johnson, and he repeated that today speaking to the House of Commons.

KEILAR: You spoke on Monday, I know, with your German counterpart. Germany has been pretty vague about how much they'll support Ukraine, raising doubts, then, about how much they will actually support you. Do you think that Germany, though, will give you more support than they have committed to publicly?

KYSLYTSYA: I personally think that Germany has no other option than sooner than later, they make the only right decision, and that is the decision to do everything possible to avert the military confrontation on the continent with potentially global implications. And I have confidence with respect to the Germany position. I'm in contact with the German ambassador here in New York. The Normandy four, including Germany, meets today in Paris, and we are all looking forward to the outcome of the meeting in Paris today.

KEILAR: Because what happens if Germany doesn't -- you're talking about Germany, obviously, just needs to do -- needs to do this. What happens if Germany doesn't? What does that look like?

KYSLYTSYA: What happens if -- I'm not going to discuss hypothetical situations. I'm very much confident that sooner than later Berlin will make the only right choice, and the choice is the favor of peace and doing everything possible to avert another war in Europe.

KEILAR: Look, I don't know that it's hypothetical. You're looking at Russian forces amassed on three sides of your country. And look, I ask you this because Americans are looking at this, trying to make sense of it, and trying to understand why they should be paying attention to it. What happens if you don't have countries like Germany and other European nations providing you the support you need?

[08:10:01]

KYSLYTSYA: Look, we are getting the support, both militarily and politically. And even if Germany will procrastinate in expressing its support verbally or by action, the Ukrainians will fight anyway. And Ukrainians are determined to protect their country. And it will result, unfortunately, in many, many casualties. And that is a responsibility of everyone, to do everything possible to avoid this bloodshed in Europe.

KEILAR: There is a lot at stake. This is a key moment in time, and Ambassador, I really appreciate you taking the time to join us. Ukraine's Ambassador to the United Nations Sergiy Kyslytsya, thank you.

KYSLYTSYA: Thank you. Have a good day.

KEILAR: You too, sir.

Moments ago, Prime Minister Boris Johnson taking an absolute grilling from parliament as he is awaiting a government report that could determine his political future.

And not for sale, a Texas woman arrested. She is accused of trying to buy a baby from another Walmart shopper.

Plus --

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm still standing better than I've ever been

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BERMAN: So he's still standing, just not on stage. Won't you come out to play? Why some Elton John fans are going to be disappointed this morning.

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[08:15:00]

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BERMAN: Moments ago, embattled British prime minister Boris Johnson facing a barrage of criticism from members of Parliament after London police announced they're investigating multiple parties he threw during lockdown that possibly break the law, laws that he helped set.

All this while he awaits a government report that really could determine his political future.

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BORIS JOHNSON, U.K. PRIME MINISTER: I welcome The Met's decision to conduct its own investigation because I believe this will help to give the public the clarity it needs. And we've got to leave the report to the independent investigators he knows (ph).

And, of course, when I receive it, I, of course, I will do exactly what I said.

KEIR STARMER, U.K. LABOUR LEADER: The reality is that we now have the shameful spectacle of a prime minister of the United Kingdom being subject to a police investigation, unable to lead the country, incapable of doing the right thing. And every day his cabinet fails to speak out, they become more and more complicit.

IAIN BLACKFORD, SCOTTISH NATIONAL PARTY: How much longer will Tory MPs let this go on for?

How much more damage are they willing to do?

And it is time to get this over with. Show the prime minister the door.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: Joining me now, CNN's Salma Abdelaziz and Sonia Purnell, a former colleague of Boris Johnson and the author of "Just Boris: A Tale of Blond Ambition."

Salma, tell us where the investigation stands because we are expecting the possibility of some news today.

SALMA ABDELAZIZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: John, this is make or break for prime minister Boris Johnson. We are expecting one of the reports -- remember, there is now two investigations ongoing into multiple allegations of parties behind me here at the prime minister's residence and offices.

One of those reports being led by a senior civil servant, the name Sue Gray. It's called the Gray report here. That Gray report is set to be released any minute now. Opposition lawmakers have wanted it to go out before prime minister's questions.

Of course, that didn't happen. And it is that report, John, that is going to outline for lawmakers minute by minute a breakdown of what occurred inside Downing Street. That information is going to be critical to prime minister Boris Johnson's own party because right now they're making a very tough decision, John.

They're deciding whether or not Johnson is still their man, whether or not he's still fit to lead this country. And if that inquiry shows that prime minister Boris Johnson is in any way implicated in, again, these multiple allegations of partying at Downing Street, that's when they could make the decision to push him out, to stop supporting him and trigger the moves for a no confidence vote.

BERMAN: One of the things that American viewers need to know is the Conservative Party holds all the cards here in terms of Boris Johnson's future. It is the party that gets to decide whether or not he will remain as prime minister.

Sonia, you've called Boris Johnson Houdini for all of his political escapes. But this time you think may be different.

Why?

SONIA PURNELL, AUTHOR AND FORMER JOHNSON COLLEAGUE: Well, I mean, he has -- it really has been a scandal a day for most of Boris Johnson's life. And he has always got away with this until now. I do think this is different. I think the reason is, it is about emotion, it is about the nation's

heart, the nation's soul. The fact was what we discovered was that here was a prime minister, setting rules to get through COVID. And remember Britain had one of the worst death tolls in the world from COVID-19 and indeed one of the worst economic hits as well.

But we went along with these rules because we thought they were sensible and that the prime minister himself would be obeying them. So the day before the famous -- now famous Downing Street garden party, for instance, I buried my own mother.

She died from COVID-19 and we were allowed only 10 people at the funeral. I mean, it was heartbreaking, so many family, friends, neighbors couldn't come.

And then we discovered that the prime minister of Great Britain, setting those rules, was in the garden of Downing Street with 30-40 other people, drinking wine, eating cheese and all rest of it.

This has become -- this is a real shock. It is something that everyone can understand, everyone can feel. And I think that's why this is a different scandal from all the others. It may seem trivial to you, particularly with all the other things that are going on in the world. It cuts through to all of us. That's why it's different.

BERMAN: I'm glad you brought that up because I think you could hear some of the American audience say, well, wait a second. We all now know that being outside with people is pretty safe.

So why is he being punished for something we know is pretty safe?

But your own personal story -- and, first of all, I'm very sorry for your loss, to have to go through that during the pandemic on top of everything else would be very painful -- but this is something that people connect to and relate to.

[08:20:00]

PURNELL: Well, it absolutely is. And you say, yes, of course, they were outside and, of course, being outside was -- it was and is safer.

But it was against the law. If you met someone, more than one person from outside your household, and got within two meters of them, you were breaking the law.

And many, many people were prosecuted and had to pay fines; some of those people, you know, really hard up. There was an absolutely heartbreaking story of an elderly gentleman, going to the allotments where he grew his vegetables, meeting up with someone else who was growing vegetables.

He had no one else in his life and he was fined 100 pounds, which is about $150. And now this guy just didn't have $150.

But meanwhile, in the same day, the prime minister is the Downing Street garden with 30-40 other people, drinking wine. BERMAN: Sonia Purnell, Salma Abdelaziz, I thank you, both.

Again, a huge day.

What will this report say and will Boris Johnson's own party turn on him?

We could know within a few hours. So thank you very much for being with us.

So here in the United States, the Omicron surge seems to have peaked in large parts of the country.

So what does this mean?

How do we plan for what, hopefully, is a much, much better future?

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Big Papi adding a Hall of Fame induction to his three World Series rings. That was a given.

But then who didn't get in?

The controversy, we'll talk about it.

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[08:25:00]

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BERMAN: New signs this morning that cases of the Omicron variant may have peaked in the United States, which has many people wondering, what's next?

Joining us now is the dean of Brown University School of Public Health, Dr. Ashish Jha.

Thanks so much for being with us. You wrote an op-ed that is so important because I do think we need to start asking, OK, what now?

I know that there are still Omicron cases; hospitalizations and deaths are still high but we also know that we're past the peak in cities that were hit first and worst here. So we can now talk about the future. And you say it is very important that, when the cases get down low enough, that we lift some of the restrictions, like indoor mask wearing and whatnot.

Why?

DR. ASHISH JHA, DEAN, BROWN UNIVERSITY SCHOOL OF PUBLIC HEALTH: Yes, good morning. First of all, thank you for having me back.

First of all, we're two years into this pandemic and people I think are feeling rightly exhausted by all of this. What I lay out is that we need a new strategy moving forward. And that strategy does not have us in emergency mode all the time, because none of us knows how long this pandemic is going to last.

We don't know which variant is going to come.

Second, we got to get out of the prediction business of knowing which variant will hit us when. None of us have been able to do that very well. So let's relax things when infections get better; signal to people, if we see another surge, we're going to need to go back and put some more public health restrictions in place.

And let's prepare for future surges. If they never come, terrific. But the bottom line is, we need to have a much more aggressive preparation mentality.

BERMAN: If cases are low and things are good, act like it so that, when things get bad, you can make the changes you need.

JHA: Exactly.

BERMAN: So how do you prepare for the possibility of a surge in cases?

JHA: Yes. So you know, again, because we're two years in, we know a lot about this virus. And every variant, even though they're all a little different, they're still the same underlying virus and we know how to manage it. So you know the list.

What we need to have lots and lots of tests, we need to ramp up production, we need to have it in stores so, the next time we have a surge, we can get them out to people and flood the zone with tests.

We need to develop -- and we have some great therapeutics; we just don't have enough doses -- we have got to really build up our stores of that as well. We should start working on future generations of vaccines.

The vaccines we have now are terrific but they were developed for the original variant. We should start thinking about kind of broader vaccines, broader protection. And then the key here, I think, is communicating with people.

We're not going to be in a forever emergency; we'll be able to manage future surges. Let's relax when we can and then let's manage the surge when it hits us again.

BERMAN: Again, I think it is interesting that people aren't talking more about the fact that we're past the worst of it in places that were hit hard by Omicron. I think would actually help. It might help.

What are the chances that, after Omicron, given how many people are vaccinated in the U.S. and how many people have had Omicron infections, that we could hit a stage -- you know, I hesitate to use this language -- but is the best ever for all of us in terms of coronavirus since it started? JHA: Yes, I'm pretty optimistic that that's what we're going to see.

Obviously, again, you have to be a bit humble about what happens in the future. But look, we have got 60 some odd percent of people fully vaccinated. We have probably 100-120 million Americans will have gotten infected by Omicron alone in this surge.

Put it all together, we'll very high levels of population immunity. That should mean that the spring is reasonably good and the summer, too; obviously, assuming we don't get a new variant.

BERMAN: Again, now is the time to start talking about this. Talk about things that they might get better. It will help people. Dr. Ashish Jha, thank you very much.

JHA: Thank you.

BERMAN: A surge in gun violence has New York City's mayor cracking down.

But do his tough on crime tactics conflict with the new district attorney?

Manhattan D.A. Alvin Bragg joins us next.

KEILAR: And Robert Kennedy Jr. rightly getting some major backlash for comparing vaccine mandates to Nazi Germany, including from his famous wife. We'll tell you what she said.