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Contenders for President Biden's Pick to Replace Justice Stephen Breyer on Supreme Court Profiled; Tennessee Schoolboard Bans Teaching of Graphic Novel "Maus" Depicting Holocaust. Aired 8-8:30a ET

Aired January 27, 2022 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:00:00]

NINA TOTENBERG, LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT, NPS: And now President Biden has pledged during his campaign that he would name a black woman to the bench. The leading contender, I would say, is probably Ketanji Brown Jackson, who has been on the D.C. court of appeals for less than a year, but prior to that was a trial court judge, federal trial court judge, for eight years. She served on the sentencing commission as vice chairman during the Obama administration. And that was a time when, with the assent of Republicans and Democrats, the commission dramatically reduced sentences for drug offenses.

She is, I think, the great, great or great granddaughter of slaves. She is married to a surgeon, and as one married to a surgeon, I think that's always a very good thing. And she is the mother of two or -- two daughters, I think. And she has a long and very stellar academic trail, having graduated from Harvard and Harvard Law School, then clerked on the Supreme Court, then was in private practice for a few years, and then as I said became a -- maybe I didn't say, became a public defender, which is very important because Biden has stressed that he wants to have a diversity not just of demographics but of experience.

And so she represented indigent defendants accused of crimes. Several of the members of the court are former prosecutors, but I don't think there has been anybody who represented people who were accused of crimes since Thurgood Marshall, and that's a long time ago. He was the first African American justice on the Supreme Court.

So the other leading contender is Leondra Kruger. And she is a justice on the California Supreme Court. Like Ketanji Brown Jackson, she has stellar legal credentials. Interestingly, she was hired by the Republican solicitor general of the United States to be an assistant solicitor general. This is prior to her becoming a justice on the state Supreme Court. And she then went on to serve six more years after that in the Obama administration, becoming the deputy solicitor general and arguing 12 cases. So at the age of 38, she was plucked by Jerry Brown onto the State Supreme Court of California, where she has earned a lot of acclaim and has a record that is very kind of moderately liberal cautious record.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: And, Nina, if you look at the two leading candidates, Judge Jackson is 51, Judge Kruger is 45, how much is age going to play into this selection process? And would it play in enough that even those six years make a difference?

TOTENBERG: I don't think so. I think both of them are young enough to serve on the Supreme Court. I think that, for example, Neil Gorsuch Justice Neil Gorsuch was just going to turn 50 at the time he was named to the Supreme Court. Justice Kavanaugh as well, over 50. They're right there in the range, if anything, Leondra Kruger is young, so that if there became another seat, she might be a contender again if she didn't get it this time.

It's very interesting, because you -- I am already hearing from the two camps, the Kruger camp and the Jackson camp, and they are internal, I would say, Democratic camps who each make a very good case for the person they want to see on the Supreme Court.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: I'm interested in the arguments that these two camps are making. What are the differences?

TOTENBERG: Well, the Jackson camp says we need somebody different who has represented little people. The Kruger camp says this is one of the true judicial stars of our time, said she can go toe to toe with any of the conservatives, and like Breyer, try to bring along some consensus on a court where liberals, even moderate liberals, are incredibly outnumbered. This is a conservative, super conservative super majority.

BERMAN: Nina Totenberg, thanks so much for being with us this morning.

TOTENBERG: It's my pleasure.

KEILAR: A Tennessee school board has banned the critically acclaimed graphic novel "Maus." It is a true story about the horrors of the holocaust by Art Spiegelman, and it depicts Jews as mice and Nazis as cats. One school board member commenting on the book saying, quote, "It shows people hanging, it shows them killing kids. Why does the educational system promote this kind of stuff? It is not wise or healthy being in the schools. Educators and stuff, we don't need to enable or somewhat promote this stuff."

[08:05:07]

We teach this material to be clear so that we don't forget. Joining us now is the Pulitzer Prize winning graphic novelist who wrote "Maus," Art Spiegelman. Art, how are you reacting to this?

ART SPIEGELMAN, AUTHOR, "MAUS": Well, I've moved past total bafflement to trying to be tolerant of people who may possibly not be Nazis, maybe, because having read the transcript of the school board meeting, the problem is sort of bigger and stupider than that. They really genuinely focused, listening to -- or reading this 20-minute document, they're totally focused on some bad words in the book, like I can't believe the word "damn" would get the book jetsoned out of school on it own. But that's really where the genuine focus seemed to be.

And despite the quote that you presented, it wasn't really like -- there wasn't any hint of, well, I think the author might Jewish or something, we don't want to have Jewish books in our schools or something. It is not like that exactly, at least. So I'm trying to, like, wrap my brain around it. It certainly hijacked that brain sometime around 7:30 last night and hasn't let go since.

BERMAN: Yes. I can understand why it is hard to wrap your brain around it. First of all, it's an honor to meet you, just a giant fan of your work, had a profound impact on me. The specific complaint was naughty language and nudity.

SPIEGELMAN: Well, the nudity was --

BERMAN: To me, you're talking about the holocaust. If your problem with discussions about the holocaust are bad words and nudity, I'm just not sure you're getting the point.

(LAUGHTER)

SPIEGELMAN: I agree, which is why I'm still trying to go, how did this exactly happen? But the nudity is specifically a small image that has my mother right after having slashed her wrists in a bathtub being found. So it is seen from overhead. You can see -- it's a tiny image. So you have to really, like, want to get your sexual kicks by projecting on it. It seems like a crazy place to get them.

So I think that it has more to do with -- I think there are so myopic in their focus, so afraid of what's implied un having to defend the decision to teach "Maus" as part of the curriculum that it led to do this kind of daffily myopic response. And daffy would be easy. The problem, of course, is that it has the breadth of autocracy and fascism about it, and it has a real problem with asking the parents to be on board to decide what is OK to teach the kids, and the values are too far away from those I can recognize to see how they got there.

I'm still trying to figure out how could this be, just as limited as it is as a problem, especially after reading at least about some educators who were doing their best to try to explain why this was being taught in the curriculum, so that it could be the linchpin book for unit of conversation that allows a lot more perspectives. And as you were just saying, just focusing on the bad words and the nudity thing is almost absurd. I can't quite get that explained.

KEILAR: Because your novel is about the experience of your family, of your father and your mother, and the legacy, too, just in your individual family, about what the holocaust wrought. And I wonder, Art, if part of the reason they're being so myopic is because of a bigger problem, which is that so many people seem to just not be seeing the holocaust for what it is these days. SPIEGELMAN: Well, what would you say it is? I think of it as a

harbinger of things to come.

BERMAN: That's disturbing.

KEILAR: Just terrifying.

BERMAN: Which makes it all the more troubling if you don't want to teach it and don't want to use the tools available to discuss it.

SPIEGELMAN: Agreed. On the other hand, like I said, the teachers who are trying to make their case really were trying to explain why it's important to deal with this topic. And I remember when I was a kid, quite a while back now, it was kind of a given that we -- the holocaust wasn't the subject. I started school in about 1952 or 53, kindergarten. But it just wasn't a subject.

[08:10:08]

And my wife was French. I don't think it was really being taught in the schools either. And I got to say, and this is strange, but true, I never did this book to teach anybody anything. I was trying to find a story important enough to spend time drawing, and it turned out to be 13 years to do that. And it wasn't about being didactic. None of that. It wasn't like I've really got to teach people that they must never forget. I just knew I had a story worth telling. When I first started in 1972, with a three-page version of this, it just wasn't a topic. It isn't like what it has become where I think every year the Oscars have at least one best holocaust movie award. And it wasn't made that way. It wasn't thinking like we must teach people to be better people.

BERMAN: Art and memory have a way of affecting people in different ways, sometimes, than you don't fully imagine, and this book clearly has. And I also want to note that you've talked about the impact and the fear that people have had about this book. Look, it was banned in Russia for one thing. But you also talked about the idea of banning books here in the United States, and one of the things you've written is keep your nose in a book, and keep others people's noses out of which book you choose to stick your nose into.

SPIEGELMAN: Right, that was made as a bookmark to be given away on banned book day in libraries. Yes, well, I agree. If anything, my problem is staying focused on this problem because the problems are vast. This is your news cycle now. But every day there is another sign that what kids ought to be reading as well but can't because probably too many big words, and I know in that part of Tennessee the reading level, only 30 percent of the students in the schools are at reading level. But I would recommend "On Tyranny" by Timothy Snyder which connects the dots admirably. He's an estimable historian who wrote "Bloodlands." And this bestselling pamphlets books has just come out in an illustrated edition. I didn't look through it to see if there's a body part that shouldn't be seen somewhere, and I don't remember that, but it could be, the graphics. And as a matter, you not only know what happened, but connected somehow what is happening to us now.

KEILAR: You were talking about maybe this is a harbinger of what's to come, and you mentioned, when you were in school, maybe there wasn't much taught about the holocaust. I think there really was more of a reckoning in the 60s and 70s about the importance of talking about it more honestly. And it seemed for decades now that was the prevailing thought, the importance of remembering so that we don't forget. What do you worry is on the horizon if there is a part of this country that cannot be learning about the holocaust in the way it happened?

SPIEGELMAN: Well, I think it is already started happening, like I said. The dog whistles abound. I think there is a moment in there where I thought Jews were honorary white people. But it seems that after coming against Critical Race Theory as the accusation against books that deal with our history, never facing up to studying the genocide of Indians, it seems that we're back in a category of -- and I say that not as a religious Jew, but clearly a Jew of some kind, even though I don't subscribe to that notion.

Anyway, I'm sorry, I warned people it was 8:00 and I wouldn't be that articulate.

(LAUGHTER)

SPIEGELMAN: So, all I'm saying is that, I guess, this is an issue, it's an issue that is way broader than any one group issue, although that's certainly happening. I was looking at Twitter last night that today is Holocaust Remembrance Day, International Holocaust Remembrance, which adds to the poignancy, irony, and madness of this to some degree because it's -- one would think the word "remembrance" is important.

And I sympathize with the teachers who very sincerely have tried to do this and baffled by a schoolboard that must, on some level, have just grown up with themselves. And the statistic I read last night was just in the county, only 30 percent of the students read at the grade level. And I guess they were brought up by that educational system themselves.

KEILAR: Art, I will say you are more articulate in the 8:00 a.m. hour than really anybody that I know. I don't know if I can handle you then at 3:00 p.m. But look, we just really appreciate you.

[08:15:01]

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: We really appreciate you joining us today. This is really -- it's a huge development. Your book is a gift and it should not be turned away.

Art Spiegelman, thank you so much.

ART SPIEGELMAN, AUTHOR: Thank you. Have a good day.

KEILAR: All right. You too, sir.

Just in, the Kremlin reacting to Secretary Tony Blinken's written response on the escalating conflict in Ukraine. What is Putin thinking? We're live in Kyiv. And Boris Johnson remaining defiant as he desperately tries to hold on

to his job. Former British Prime Minister Tony Blair joining us to discuss.

And a second longest winning streak in "Jeopardy" history coming to an end.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KEILAR: Secretary of State Tony Blinken says the U.S. has delivered a response to Moscow security concerns with a serious diplomatic path forward aiming to prevent a Russian invasion of Ukraine.

Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov of Russia says the response fails to address Moscow's concerns.

CNN's Clarissa Ward live in Kyiv, Ukraine.

Clarissa, tell us the response that you're getting from the Kremlin this morning, because it just seems there is no hope of overlap between what is acceptable to the U.S. and to Russia.

CLARISSA WARD, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah. I mean, it is not looking great, Brianna, to be honest. We know that President Putin has seen and read through the written response that was provided by the U.S.

[08:20:06]

His spokesperson Dmitry Peskov didn't elaborate, but just said it's safe to assume it won't be tomorrow or the next couple of days that you'll hear some kind of response. So, we might have to wait until next week to learn more.

But as you mentioned, it was the foreign minister, Sergey Lavrov, who sounded distinctly pessimistic with his tone. He basically said it is clear there are areas that could be explored, diplomatically, on the secondary issues. That's things like improved transparency, military exercises and maneuvers, arms control.

But on the primary issues for Russia, which are the NATO open door policy, Ukraine possibly being able to join the union at some point and on the issue of NATO pulling its troops and weaponry from countries that have joined the union since 1997, he said that he was much more pessimistic essentially because obviously the Russian side does not feel that there has been any movement or compromise really from the Americans. And that's not entirely unexpected.

Because from the get-go, Brianna, the U.S. said that certain issues or certain of the Russian demands are simply put nonstarters. So the question now becomes when do we hear from President Putin? It has been a month now since we heard him actually speak about the Ukraine issue. And we know that Foreign Minister Lavrov is going to be giving a live interview on Russian radio tomorrow, potentially. We'll learn a little bit more there. But, of course, everybody wants to know at this stage does this mean

that diplomatic efforts are now at an impasse? Have they reached a dead end or is there still a possibility to try to salvage something from this to try to end this crisis.

And probably there is only one man who really knows the answer to that, President Vladimir Putin. We haven't heard from him in a while. It is entirely at this stage he has yet to make his mind up, Brianna.

BERMAN: What are the Ukrainians saying this morning, Clarissa?

WARD: The Ukrainians have said they are pleased with the written response that the U.S. sent in. They indicated that they had a role in shaping it, alongside the U.S. they said they think it is well thought out. And so, they're hopeful that potentially that something can come out of it.

They want for these talks to continue. They want to find a diplomatic solution. Not just because of the threat of an all out-out invasion but also because even the speculation about an invasion and the optics of having more than 100,000 Russian troops amassed along your border is terrible for Ukraine in terms of its ability to attract foreign investment, to project to its citizens the image that it is, you know, in control, that it is a sovereign nation, that it is not under threat.

And so for various reasons, they are very much dedicated to trying to find some kind of a diplomatic solution to this. At the same time, when we interviewed the foreign minister, he was very clear, we will not make any concessions. Anyone who says we have to make a concession will be escorted back to the airport.

So with neither side understandably willing to make those kind of concessions and with no real understanding of whether the Russians are actually engaging in this diplomatic process in good faith or whether it is simply a diverse or a delay tactic, it is difficult to see at this stage how these diplomatic negotiations could really bear fruit.

KEILAR: Yeah, it feels very much like the clock is ticking here. Clarissa Ward, thank you so much.

Are Boris Johnson's days as British prime minister numbered? We will ask one of his predecessors, Tony Blair, next.

BERMAN: And LAPD officer jumping into action, saving a little girl from choking to death. We have the dramatic bodycam video.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:28:01]

BERMAN: This morning, Downing Street anxiously awaiting a much anticipated report into parties that took place during the UK's strict COVID lockdown. Prime Minister Boris Johnson and his team are defiant saying he will not resign over this scandal. It all comes amid high tension in Europe as Russia troops are amassing at Ukraine's border. Joining us now is the former British Prime Minister Tony Blair. He is

the executive chairman of the Tony Blair Institute for Global Change, which is supporting a new initiative to approve vaccination around the world through global health security consortium, which will talk about in a second.

Mr. Prime minister, look, I want to start with what peace's going on London now with the current prime minister. What do you see is the possible tipping point here?

TONY BLAIR, FORMER BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: Look, I guess it depends what happens. There is a report being done on breaches of the rules in Downing Street. There is a report that is going to come out soon. I think we have to wait for that. The prime minister has made it clear he's not going. It is really a decision for the conservative parties as to whether they want to mount a challenge to him and frankly, you know, nothing much people like myself can add to it.

BERMAN: Why do you think that this issue or these issues have been so resonant with people in the United Kingdom?

BLAIR: Because people in the UK underwent a very strict lockdown. So people were more or less confined to their homes. They weren't mixing, even with closed family. Many people weren't able to be present when their loved ones were either sick or even dying. And so, obviously, if then transpires has been breaches of the rules right at the very top, people feel very angry about it.

So, that's the reason for it. But there is a report that's coming to come out in the next few days and we'll have to wait and see what that says.

BERMAN: Maybe even today. Look, I do understand this is a conservative party issue. That's how it works in the United Kingdom.

I also read an interview from you about a week and a half ago where you said you didn't want to weigh in on whether or not you thought he should resign. That was like four parties ago and three revelations. So, I'm just wondering if you changed your opinion since then about whether or not you think he should resign?