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Reporting Indicates Former President Trump Directed Rudy Giuliani to ask Department of Homeland Security If It Could Legally Take Control of Voting Machines in Swing States; Michigan Attorney General Interviewed on Video of Michigan State Senate Candidate Citing Second Amendment in Connection to Preventing Voter Fraud. Aired 8- 8:30a ET

Aired February 01, 2022 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:00:00]

JONATHAN KNIGHT, GENERAL MANAGER FOR GAMES, "THE NEW YORK TIMES": Thanks for having me. Thanks so much.

BERMAN: NEW DAY continues right now.

Good morning to our viewers here in the United States and all around the world. It is Tuesday, February 1st. I'm John Berman with Brianna Keilar. And we do begin with a CNN exclusive. Donald Trump's advisers drafted more than one executive order to seize voting machines during the former president's final weeks in office. There was one order for the Pentagon, we had known about that. But overnight, CNN reporting on another for Homeland Security. And we're just learning about the Homeland Security request right now.

So "The New York Times" also reporting overnight that Trump himself was directly involved, quote, "President Donald J. Trump directed his lawyer, Rudolph Giuliani, to make a remarkable call. Mr. Trump wanted him to ask the Department of Homeland Security if it could legally take control of voting machines in key swing states.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: Some of the White House records that were turned over to the January 6th committee arrived torn up, we have learned, and it was Trump who personally ripped them to pieces. They had to be taped together by National Archive staffers. And sources also tell CNN that Marc Short, former vice president Mike Pence's chief of staff, testified before the House Select Committee last week in response to a subpoena. It is the most significant sign to date that Pence's team is cooperating with the probe.

BERMAN: Joining me now is former attorney general and former White House counsel under President George W. Bush, Alberta Gonzalez. Thank you so much for being with us. You heard what "The Times" is reporting, that Donald Trump directed Rudolph Giuliani to call Homeland Security about seizing voting machines. Your reaction?

ALBERTO GONZALES, FORMER ATTORNEY GENERAL: I'm not surprised, quite frankly, John. And it's sad that I feel that way, but given everything that has been reported about what happened in the Trump presidency around that period of time, I'm not surprised at all, quite frankly. It's obviously very disappointing. I said I think the weekend after the election, Donald Trump has lost the election. And I think this reflects an individual who is in denial, and I think he was assisted by people within his circle, and I think that's unfortunate as well.

And so I think it is good that we're finding out what actually happened. And we'll see whether or not there are any consequences. And I think there may be some decisions ahead for the attorney general in terms of whether or not to impanel a grand jury and whether or not to -- obviously, I think he's going to look into this and see whether or not there should be something that the Department of Justice should do in response.

BERMAN: All right, let's talk about that a little bit more. You said disappointing. Do you think something legally incriminating about this information?

GONZALES: Could be. Yes, obviously could be. From as minor as destruction of government records, but obviously that's minor comparison to the possibility that he in fact actively participated in trying to overturn the election, and obviously that's a very serious matter. And so the Department of Justice will look to see whether or not any federal laws have been violated and can be prosecuted. So we still have a long way to go, but obviously whether or not a crime was committed here, I think the behavior that's being described is extremely troubling.

And I think it, again, just reflects a personality that of an individual that, like a child unwilling to accept reality. And I think it is a reflection of a person who actually -- who is a loser. Donald Trump lost the election and is someone unwilling to accept that. And I think that's very, very unfortunate. And I think it's been harmful, certainly to the Republican Party, but more importantly harmful to this country. And it has made it more difficult, I think, for President Biden to govern. And I think, you know, he's -- President Biden is dealing with some extraordinary challenges, and to have this kind of distraction I think is very unfortunate.

BERMAN: Were you the attorney general this morning, would you empanel a grand jury?

GONZALES: I certainly would take a look at that, John. But again, there is going to -- the attorney general in the Department of Justice is always going to have more information in the public, certainly, at the outset. And so it's going to depend on what Merrick Garland is looking at, what his advisers are telling him. And so I don't know. I don't have the answer to that. I can't answer that question.

BERMAN: There's a lot of public information, though. I'm sure, one would think, one would hope Merrick Garland knows a lot more than we do right now because of the investigation going on. But there is so much out in public right now.

[08:05:00] And you mentioned if Donald Trump actively tried to overturn the election -- we have known for a long time he did, and he literally told us just yesterday, like, literally in writing that that's what he was doing. He put out that statement about Mike Pence, where he said that Mike Pence could have overturned the election, which is what he was urging right there. It's almost a letter of intent.

GONZALES: Well, look, let's be clear. Mike Pence does not have the authority, did not have the authority or responsibility to overturn the election. It just didn't exist. And, again, this is another indication of an individual unwilling to accept reality and looking to blame anybody. And that's what he's doing today. Blaming Mike Pence, blaming the Florida secretary of state -- I mean the Georgia secretary of state and other elected officials because unwilling to accept the fact that he is a loser. He lost the election.

And you keep pressing about what the Department of Justice is going to do. I don't know, quite frankly. I have confidence in Merrick Garland in terms of looking at the evidence. This is obviously a very important decision, and it is one that he'll take with -- taking into consideration all the facts, hearing advice from the advisers. And so I'm not in a position to make that call.

BERMAN: No, but you can appreciate it. You're one of few people who have actually held the job of attorney general. It is not like we have hundreds of attorneys general of the use United States that we can all and say, hey, and what do you think, you had this job before. So you're uniquely qualified, I might suggest, to talk to us about this situation.

GONZALES: Well, and I am talking to you about the situation, and I'm telling you that what I would do is what Merrick Garland is doing, which is to evaluate the situation. And I don't have all the information that he's going to be evaluating, John. So I can't comment on that. I think you want me to say, I wouldn't prosecute him, I wouldn't empanel a grand jury. I can't say that. I don't know.

BERMAN: I want you to speak your mind. I'm just curious based on your experience and based on your view of the facts that are in the public domain right now what you think. But I appreciate your reticence on that.

Let me ask you about your experience as White House counsel, because apparently Pat Cipollone was in the room at various times, or at least had knowledge of some of these requests. How high would your level of alarm have been had you heard the president say, call and see if Homeland Security can seize these voting machines?

GONZALES: It would be extremely troubling. And I would have a very serious conversation with the president to advise him that I think this would be a bad, bad idea. And from my perspective, as someone who worked with George W. Bush, this scenario is so impossible to even think about. But if I had to, hypothetically, in the room with Donald Trump when this directive -- when I hear this directive, I would have a -- I would quickly have a conversation with the president. And I might even tell everyone stand down. Let's not do anything until I have this conversation with the president, because I would want to make sure the president understands exactly what he was doing and the possible consequences of this kind of directive.

So John, I'm really am glad to be on this show because there are so many important things on tap right now. Can I have -- I just want to make one comment about the last segment about Ted Cruz's comment about the Supreme Court. Obviously, I was involved in the selection and appointment of John Roberts and Sam Alito to the Supreme Court, so I know what the process is from the inside. The notion that -- Ted's comment, Senator Cruz's comments, who I respect, are nonsensical. There is nothing wrong with saying as a president, I'm going to -- my hope is -- my intention is to nominate someone, a black woman, a woman, a Hispanic, there is nothing wrong, I think, in my judgment, in the president saying that.

The problem becomes if the president nominates someone who is not qualified. I have every expectation that President Biden is going to nominate a black woman to the Supreme Court who is extremely qualified based upon the names that have been mentioned, and I've looked at their resumes and their backgrounds. These are extremely well- credentialed individuals, and from my perspective, more than qualified to serve on the Supreme Court. And so I just find Senator Cruz's comments really kind of silly.

BERMAN: Alberto Gonzales, terrific answers to the questions I asked, and answers to the questions I didn't ask, which makes news in and of themselves. I really appreciate you coming on. Thank you so much. Great to see you this morning.

GONZALES: Thank you.

KEILAR: Meanwhile, the lie that pervasive voter fraud is somehow affecting the outcome of elections is leading to dangerous language from some Republicans. This

[08:10:01]

is Mike Detmer, a Republican candidate for Michigan State Senate, this is what he said when asked what can be done to protect Republican ballot observers.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What can we do to prepare for that event that's going to occur again?

MIKE DETMER, MICHIGAN STATE SENATE CANDIDATE: I have some thoughts, unless you want to say anything there? Are you armed? I say that in all seriousness.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can be.

DETMER: The Second Amendment isn't there for hunting rights. It's not there for self-defense. The Second Amendment is there, the founders put it there to protect all the others. The ideal thing is to do this peacefully. That's ideal. But the American people at some point in time, if we can't change the tide, we need to be prepared to lock and load.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: So that video was posted by the campaign of Ryan Kelly who is a Republican candidate for governor of Michigan. And joining us now to discuss this is Michigan Secretary of State Jocelyn Benson. Thank you so much, Secretary, for being with us. I know that you said you referred these comments to the Michigan Attorney General's Office. Do you think that there is a crime here?

JOCELYN BENSON, (D) MICHIGAN SECRETARY OF STATE: Yes. I think that when you're arguing or threatening to intimidate voters with actionable specifics, that law enforcement absolutely needs to investigate to ensure, again, that we're doing everything we can to protect American citizens when they go to the polls in any election from any threats or fear of harm.

KEILAR: Does what he said -- does that encourage armed conflict at polling places, in your view?

BENSON: It is pretty clear that's what he's calling for. And I think we have to realize this conversation, this call to arms, if you will, is taking place in a greater context, a greater context of attempted coups, of attempted efforts to overturn the will of the people. This very conversation took place in the context of also telling people to unplug voting machines if they don't like what they see, which is tampering with election equipment.

So there is a number of potential legal violations. There's a number of unsafe violent consequences that could result. And what we know, what all the research shows is that violent threats and particularly calls to violence can lead to violence at the polls. And, of course, that's what the January 6th committee is also investigating with regards to the violence at the U.S. Capitol on January 6th.

KEILAR: The danger of being involved in elections, it's not an abstract one to you. To be clear to our viewers, you were at your house in December of 2020 when a few dozen armed protesters surrounded your house. You were there with your young son. Do you worry that it -- that this sort of encourages that, the targeting of individuals like yourself? And just speak to what that was like.

BENSON: Yes. And thank you. It was harrowing. For me in particular, in that moment I recognized, while dealing with trying to keep my son safe and create an air of calm in our house, that also these attacks aren't necessarily aimed at me as an individual, they're aimed at our democracy, they're aimed at that point trying to overturn the will of the voters and reaction to that.

So I have a responsibility as the state's chief election officer to stand guard over the will of the voters, whatever it may be, whoever they may vote for. And in some ways, it only made me more determined to do that work and to do it with integrity and to do it with determination to ensure our democracy prevails.

However, those threats and these calls to action for violence at the polls and everything else that is part of the misinformation and the lies right now circulating around our democracy are also manifesting themselves in real threats to local election officials who don't necessarily have the same spotlight or the same even protection that someone like myself at the statewide level does. And that's what I'm really concerned about. The election workers, the poll workers, which in part are those who have been targeted in the conversation we were just having, and the threats to their livelihood and what could happen if we lose the ability of these professionals to do their jobs with integrity and with determination. Then our democracy really does become threatened.

KEILAR: They're taking on a whole world of worry that was never part of the job and they are not compensated for and shouldn't have to deal with in the U.S.

So you -- I want to ask you, you sent a letter to the January 6th committee that had details on efforts to overturn Biden's victory in your state in Michigan. We have now learned that there are actually two versions of an executive order to seize voting machines, one to the Pentagon, one to DHS. What is your reaction to learning that?

BENSON: I'm disappointed and frustrated and angry, like everyone else hearing and being reminded of this.

[08:15:02]

But -- I mean, I also lived through this in December of 2020, where every day, almost hourly, there were stories like this coming out, indications that this could happen and, you know, we had issues where there was clear coordination between the Trump campaign and his attorneys and a lot of our efforts in Michigan to protect the vote and efforts at the local level interfere with those protections.

So my view is all of this was coordinated and all of this was coordinated within an effort to overturn the will of the people in Michigan and around the country and nullify the votes of millions of Americans.

And recognizing that, the importance of the federal government right now, the Justice Department, the January 6th Committee, investigating, gathering more evidence, unveiling more truth and seeking accountability for everyone involved in this un-American effort to overturn an election needs to be held accountable and we need to get to the truth.

STELTER: I appreciate you joining us this morning, Michigan Secretary of State Jocelyn Benson.

BENSON: Thanks for having me.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: All right, countdown is on for the Beijing winter Olympics, now just three days away.

Team USA bobsledder Elana Meyers Taylor says she tested positive for COVID upon arrival, but she's optimistic she'll be able to compete. She's one of two dozen new cases detected despite the events closed loop bubble.

Selina Wang live in Beijing with the latest -- Selina.

SELINA WANG, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, John. The games haven't been started yet, but already, around 70 positive COVID cases involving athletes or team officials and for the athletes, we talked about this during the Tokyo games, it is heart breaking and frustrating since some of them feel perfectly healthy.

So in addition to Elena Mayors Taylor, there's also a Russia biathlete. She actually had to withdraw, confirmed because of a positive COVID case. Hong Kong skier, Audrey King, she's stuck in isolation, but asymptomatic. And U.S. bobsledder Josh Williamson, he couldn't even leave for Beijing because he tested positive before he left.

Now, any positive case in the closed loop, they immediately get sent to isolation at a facility or a hospital, cannot leave until they clear two positive COVID tests at least 24 hours apart.

And in some cases, John, that can take as long as weeks, but these games not just difficult for the athletes. It is also very tough on the local Chinese staff inside the closed loop. Today's a lunar Chinese New Year. It is by far the most important holiday, like Christmas, and Thanksgiving, combined, and important time to be with family.

But all the staff here, they're stuck inside this loop, and earlier today, I spoke to this woman who was standing over on this side of the fence, so she could be as close as possible to her family, they were outside of the closed loop on the other side of the fence, her two young son sons, waiting for her meters away, saying how much they missed her, how much they loved her.

This woman, she also worked during the 2008 Games, she said back then, the mood was different. Everyone was excited. It was like a big party. But this time, she says this time everything is so tough -- John.

BERMAN: It's nerve-racking, it's just flat out nerve-racking for the athletes and I think for the spectators. Selina Wang, thank you so much for your reporting. We look forward to more from you in the coming weeks.

Development overnight, we are monitoring this huge fire at a fertilizer plant in North Carolina. Wake Forest canceled classes over fears the entire plant could explode. We have new details ahead.

Plus, why are efforts to ban books in schools spreading across the United States? And what can be done about it? A reality check, coming up.

KEILAR: Plus, a shocking case of road rage. A man opening fire on a fellow driver. We have details ahead.

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[08:22:10]

BERMAN: Legislators nationwide are drafting bills to restrict curricula, that is the plural, Brianna Keilar, to control the conversation of race and to remove books from library shelves.

John Avlon with a "Reality Check".

JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Remember when Republicans were running on protecting free speech, good times. Turns out what they really meant was free speech for me, but not for thee, because fueled by fear of critical race theory, conservatives are responding with speech codes of their own.

Latest example, a new bill pushed in New Hampshire which seeks to expand prohibition on teacher advocacy of subversive doctrines. Now, if that sounds creepily McCarthyite, it is partly because it throws cold water on the teaching of communism, Marxism and socialism, no word from Bernie Sanders on how he feels about that.

But the bill goes farther, targeting any doctrine or theory promoting a negative account or representation of the founding history of the United States of America, including a ban on teaching the United States was founded on racism.

Now, someone should remind these folks that their state motto is live free or die. Just in case that needs some clarification, the dictionary definition of freedom is the power or right to act, speak or think as one wants, without hindrance or restraint -- which, of course, is the opposite of what's being proposed.

Look, you can be deeply patriotic and not pretend our country is perfect, but that common sense balance seems to be in short supply, because this isn't an isolated incident. Take Florida, where Governor Ron DeSantis is backing a bill that would prohibit public schools and private businesses for making people feel discomfort or guilt based on their race, sex or national origin.

It makes me wonder, whatever happened to the whole "facts don't care about your feelings" thing? I mean, this is literally trying to legislate around people's feelings. Should really be called the trigger warning for white guys bill. There is similar examples in Texas where new laws restrict the way history and race are taught, a Lone Star State legislator submitted a list of 850 suspect books to school superintendents, including works by William Styron, Margaret Atwood and Ta-Nehisi Coates, resulting in hundreds of books being removed for review in districts like San Antonio.

In Virginia, the new governor, Glenn Youngkin, following through on campaign ads highlighting a conservative activist who complained about the Pulitzer Prize-winning Toni Morrison novel "Beloved" with an executive order banning divisive concept CRT, setting up a snitch line where parents can lodge complaints about teachers.

Moral panic has been catching. According to a study by Pan America, in the first nine months of last year, 24 state legislatures introduced 54 bills and restricted teaching in public schools, higher education and state agencies. At least 11 passed and nearly half are still pending.

[08:25:01]

And local school boards have been following the censorious route, most recently when the Pulitzer Prize-winning graphic novel "Maus" was pulled from eighth grade curriculum in Tennessee school board, allegedly the shelves. You would think a chronicle of the holocaust would have caught their attention. But their action only succeeded in rocketing the book back to the top of the best-seller list, which is a healthy response.

On the flip side, getting far less attention, Washington state school board last week decided to drop the classic "To Kill a Mockingbird" from the ninth grade required reading list. It's apparently a common target of book bans because of racist language, the marginalization characters of color, and white savior complex. Wait until they get to Huckleberry Finn.

Now, banning books looks bad in the rear view mirror. It is a sign of weakness, not strength. In this rush to the culture war ramparts, we're losing sight of common sense. We need to try to apply common standards, rooted in objective facts, and not be so quick to take offense when confronted by ideas we disagree with. That's a little democracy 101, folks.

So don't complain about cancel culture and then try to cancel voices on the other side. Because if you really love this country, then have the confidence to recognize the good and the bad in our past. If you really love freedom, then have the courage to extend that principle consistently, beyond politics, especially on campus.

And that's your "Reality Check".

BERMAN: You know, as a student told us the other day, history has not ever looked fondly on people who ban books.

AVLON: That's exactly right. That's a universal truth.

BERMAN: It does not age well. John Avlon, thank you very much.

A bipartisan group of governors is telling President Biden the country needs to move away from the pandemic. We're going to speak to a Democratic mayor who is lifting COVID measures in his own city.

KEILAR: And breaking this morning, Pfizer is about to seek FDA authorization for its vaccine for kids under 5. We'll have everything you need to know ahead.

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