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Lawyer: January 6 Rioters Aware That Trump Is Offering Potential Pardons; Michigan GOP Candidate: Rape Survivors Shouldn't Have Abortions; 19 HBCU Campuses Terrorized By Bomb Threats. Aired 7:30-8a ET
Aired February 02, 2022 - 07:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[07:30:00]
ROBERT JENKINS, ATTORNEY FOR JANUARY 6 RIOTER ANTHONY ANTONIO: Well, I don't know if it would necessarily give me leverage. But certainly, I don't think that there is any criminal defense attorney in the country that would advise a client to turn down a pardon.
A pardon results in the ultimate best-case scenario for any given client who is facing a criminal prosecution, so it would be ill- advised. It would be irresponsible, I believe, on that part of any criminal defense attorney to recommend that a client decline accepting a pardon.
JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: I see that. I guess what I'm asking --
JENKINS: (INAUDIBLE) or not.
BERMAN: I guess what I'm asking is even before that point if you have a solid possibility of a pardon, it's just -- you know, goes to reason that it would affect your behavior during the investigation, the prosecution, discussion with prosecutors, yes?
JENKINS: Yes. I mean, certainly it would. I mean, knowing that is awaiting you at the end regardless of the risk you might take by moving forward with the litigation -- absolutely, it would impact not only the attorney's perspective but certainly the client's also.
BERMAN: So less likely to cooperate, potentially?
JENKINS: Far less likely to cooperate and probably more likely to proceed to a trial.
BERMAN: What you're telling me is that the former president is directly impacting the course of prosecutions here. JENKINS: I think the former president continues to motivate, to impact, to suggest the actions of those who support him. He did on January the sixth and I don't think anything has changed since that time. He continues to be a very influential person in many of Americans' minds, unfortunately.
BERMAN: I get that. I get it. It just sounds like what you're saying -- you're describing to a tee witness tampering.
JENKINS: I don't know if it would rise to the level of witness tampering because this is not a situation where I think he's offering something of value to someone who is necessarily a witness but a potential defendant, or an actual defendant. So I don't think this would qualify as witness tampering. But he certainly is putting his fingers on the scales. I'll say that.
BERMAN: Well, and you're -- and you're saying this is as someone who's representing some of the clients involved there, so I think that is an extraordinary --
JENKINS: It's true.
BERMAN: -- admission that you're making right now. And I think people should listen to what's going on here because this is having a direct impact.
While I have you, before I let you go, I also want to ask you about something else the former president said. He said to his supporters if some of the prosecutions against the president or investigations result in charges, he says, quote, "I hope we're going to have the biggest protest we ever had in Washington, D.C."
Now, your client, Anthony Antonio -- what he said is that last year, he put Trump above Jesus Christ as my Lord and savior. So when you have a guy with that much influence -- Trump telling people take to the streets -- what potential impact do you think that will have?
JENKINS: Well, it certainly gives a potential for a repeat of the events of January the sixth. You know, Mr. Trump has been, in my view, reckless with many of his public statements and comments directly to his supporters and others and unfortunately, many Americans have taken them to heart. Some have acted upon those words and now they find themselves in legal difficulties.
BERMAN: Robert Jenkins -- Counselor, I do appreciate you being with us this morning and I look forward to speaking to you again in the future.
JENKINS: Well, thank you for having me.
BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: I mean, that's pretty fascinating, Berman --
BERMAN: Yes.
KEILAR: -- because he's saying it does affect these defendants. And we also heard from another lawyer yesterday, so now you have two lawyers representing January sixth defendants who are saying that this is welcome news and it does have an effect.
BERMAN: He said less likely to cooperate -- finger on the scales. I mean, that's pretty --
KEILAR: A big headline.
BERMAN: -- that's pretty extraordinary from someone inside the process right now.
KEILAR: Yes.
BERMAN: All right. Just in, the fraud prediction from the fraud groundhog.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: From my shadow, I have cast a long, lustrous six more weeks of winter.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BERMAN: I mean --
KEILAR: I don't even care about this guy. I care about "Pantsatawney Phil" who is going to tell us if Harry Enten will sneak into your office and put your clothes on again in the next six weeks.
BERMAN: I think it's a high chance of that. I really do. But Harry says -- Harry says that this groundhog -- this rodent is wrong 60 percent of the time. So the point is --
KEILAR: Yes.
BERMAN: -- if the rodent just said six more weeks of winter, chances are there's a greater chance it won't happen now. So we have our actual prediction.
KEILAR: So if Phil says one thing, we should actually just go with the opposite and then 60 percent of the time we'll be right. That's --
[07:35:00]
BERMAN: Exactly. That's a good bet in Vegas, man. You could make a lot of money that way.
KEILAR: That's what I'm doing. Yes.
BERMAN: All right, back in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[07:39:24]
KEILAR: Comments by a Republican candidate for governor of Michigan are drawing condemnation from Democrats in the state. Garrett Soldano shared his views of what should happen with rape victims if they become pregnant as a result -- listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GARRETT SOLDANO, (R) MICHIGAN GOVERNOR CANDIDATE: There is a lot of situations out there when you talk about rape and everything else. And hey, maybe they deserve an abortion. We're always going to fight for life. Or how about we start inspiring women in the culture to let them understand and know how heroic they are and how unbelievable that they are? That God put them in this moment and they don't know that little baby inside them may be the next president -- maybe the next person that changes humanity.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[07:40:05]
KEILAR: Joining us now to discuss this is CNN senior political correspondent, and the anchor of "INSIDE POLITICS SUNDAY," Abby Phillip. Abby, what do you think of this comment?
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT, ANCHOR, "INSIDE POLITICS SUNDAY": Hey, Bri. Hey, John.
So look, I mean, I think that this is where many Republicans in the country are -- those who oppose abortion. The Republican Party, in particular, has been moving further and further away from this idea that there should be exceptions to abortion and partly because they believe that abortion rights in this country are on the verge of being overturned. And with the Supreme Court about to take up a case on Roe v. Wade, they may very well be correct.
But the other side of this issue is that almost 70 percent of Americans support Roe v. Wade being the law of the land. They support a woman's right to an abortion. And so, the disconnect here between what's being said in that clip and what a majority -- a large majority of Americans believe is pretty large. And I don't really know how that's going to play out for this country if, in fact, the court does what conservatives want it to do later this year.
BERMAN: But do they seem emboldened to talk about it in ways --
PHILLIP: Yes.
BERMAN: -- that they haven't before, maybe because of where the court is headed.
PHILLIP: Yes. I mean, I -- you know, years ago, it used to be commonplace that Republican candidates for office would be clear about an exception for rape and incest when it comes to their belief that abortion should be restricted.
You all probably remember a few years ago in the 2016 campaign when then-candidate Trump said at a debate that he believed that women should be punished -- KEILAR: Yes.
PHILLIP: -- for seeking abortions.
Those were kind of thought to be going too far and I think today that really has changed. There is a perception now that the push to ban abortions should go all the way, and I think that's what you're seeing here in that clip.
KEILAR: We'll keep an eye on it because I'm very curious to see if there is any fallout from any Republicans on this.
I do want to ask you Abby about some news that was just made in this interview Berman did with a lawyer for one of the January sixth defendants who said Trump dangling these pardons in front of January sixth defendants -- that it actually does reduce the chance that they'll cooperate.
PHILLIP: Yes. I mean -- sorry, I thought we were going to play the clip, but --
KEILAR: We don't have the clip yet.
PHILLIP: We don't have it? OK, that's OK.
You know, I think that President Trump is dangling these pardons because he knows that his supporters want him to support these insurrectionists. And I think it's interesting that -- I mean, you heard the attorney. He said, rightfully so, that any lawyer would say hey, take a pardon if one is offered to you.
But at the same time -- I mean, I do think that President Trump is trying to do more signaling than anything else, which is to say I don't think that January sixth was as bad as it was. That's part of the whitewashing of what happened. And also that not only do I not think it was as bad as people are saying that it is, I'm going to stick up for these people because they're my people. And I think that that's incredibly poisonous and dangerous, and damaging.
BERMAN: It was just startling to hear an attorney --
PHILLIP: Yes.
BERMAN: -- for a guy representing the people being charged saying yes, what Trump says makes us less likely to cooperate.
PHILLIP: Yes.
BERMAN: It does put the fingers on the scales there. We're going to talk -- hopefully, get some attorneys in the next few days to figure out the legal implications of that -- if it does constitute witness tampering.
PHILLIP: Yes.
BERMAN: But it does seem rather startling. Lindsey Graham has criticized Trump. Lindsey Graham, the friend of the former president, has criticized Trump for these statements. This is what Trump says about the South Carolina senator.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Lindsey Graham's wrong. I mean, Lindsey's a nice guy but he's RINO.
What they've done to these and, in many cases, patriots -- they're soldiers, they're policemen. What they have done to them compared to what they've done to the other side -- you know, you have to have equal justice and this isn't equal.
ROB SCHMITT, NEWSMAX HOST, "ROB SCHMITT TONIGHT": No.
TRUMP: So I would absolutely be prepared. And Lindsey Graham doesn't know what the hell he's talking about.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BERMAN: So the guy who goes to golf with him whenever he can, who sticks up for him whenever he can -- now, Lindsey Graham is a Republican in name only.
PHILLIP: Yes. I mean, shrug emoji. I mean, there's no loyalty here for -- when it comes to Trump.
Lindsey Graham, as you know, is still -- I mean, considered -- widely considered to be one of Trump's closest allies and he was just thrown under the bus. This is the same Lindsey Graham who shortly after January sixth said you know what, I'm done -- and then proceeded to go to Mar-a-Lago to pay his respects to the former president. So, I don't really know what the game is here for Graham.
[07:45:00]
The reality is that Trump is making the choice very clear for Republicans. They either support him and the coup attempt or they don't. And if you are on the wrong side of that, for Trump, you are a RINO. There's no middle ground here. There's no placating him here.
He wants people who back him to also back the insurrection attempt. To also back the coup attempt. And if you try to push back against the coup, then you are pushed out of the Republican Party.
And I think that's what you're seeing here with Graham. It's what you're seeing with Adam Kinzinger in the House, and Lindsey -- and Liz Cheney in the House. There is no middle ground.
There is no threading of this needle when it comes to Trump and what he attempted to do and what he's been clear he is willing to do again if he -- if he should be in another position to try to overturn the results of a free and fair election.
KEILAR: Yes. You took me back to what Graham said there on January sixth.
PHILLIP: Yes.
KEILAR: I think it was --
PHILLIP: Yes.
KEILAR: -- count me out. OK --
PHILLIP: Count me out, right.
KEILAR: -- we'll see. Count me out.
PHILLIP: He was not counted out. He went right back, so --
KEILAR: Sure did. Sure did.
Abby, great to see you this morning. Thank you so much. And you can, of course, catch Abby on "INSIDE POLITICS SUNDAY" at 8:00 a.m. eastern.
It's a disturbing trend. Nineteen historically Black colleges and universities -- 19 are being terrorized with bomb threats as Black History Month begins. So who is behind this?
BERMAN: And what in the world happened in the buffet line of a Golden Corral that led to this 40-person brawl?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[07:50:48]
KEILAR: We are seeing an alarming and very widespread trend, which is 19 historically Black colleges and universities are reporting bomb threats -- 14 yesterday alone -- on the first day of Black History Month, prompting many of them to go into lockdown or to postpone classes.
Joining me now is the president of Tougaloo College, Carmen Walters. And we're also joined by a student from Howard University, Lauryn Donovan. I want to thank both of you for coming on to talk about this. We've been watching this go on and I just can't even imagine what you're going through.
Lauryn, to you first. What has it been like? What have you experienced?
LAURYN DONOVAN, HOWARD UNIVERSITY STUDENT (via Skype): Honestly, I feel like the environment -- I feel like -- not that a lot of us are used to this, but this was kind of disappointing but not surprising, especially because like this is the beginning of Black History Month. But at the same time, we have gotten bomb threats before -- I think back in January.
So it wasn't -- I don't know. To me, it wasn't a shock. I know a lot my friends and I have been kind of like trying to lighten the mood by joking about it and stuff like that. But I don't know. A lot of us are kind of not surprised at this point and very desensitized.
KEILAR: So, Lauryn, what happens at Howard when there's a bomb threat?
DONOVAN: I know some people's classes got canceled. Like, I think the ROTC program didn't meet yesterday. But we get a lot of like updates from our Bison SAFE -- a lot of e-mails. They try to really keep us in the loop about things.
But I guess just staying cautious. Telling us to stay cautious. Be very vigilant of your surroundings.
KEILAR: And Carmen, what have you been through? What have your students at Tougaloo College -- what have they been through?
CARMEN WALTERS, PRESIDENT, TOUGALOO COLLEGE (via Webex by Cisco): Well, we had a total disruption in the morning. We had to shut down the entire campus. We had to do a sweep. We decided to do online classes and ask all of our faculty and staff to work remotely. It's a total disruption to our day.
And so, our response was how can we continue to do what we are required to do, educate scholars, while going through this really strange experience? We have not had a call at our institution but we have watched other institutions prior to yesterday have these kinds of experiences. So we've began to train and prepare, unfortunately, in 2022, for these kinds of disruptions.
KEILAR: It gets in the way of learning is what it sounds like you're saying, Carmen.
WALTERS: Absolutely, it does, and so we are resolute in our mission. And so, although this was a huge disruption and we locked everything down for a few hours, we did decide to continue the learning cycle using online modalities.
And we are saying to whoever is terrorizing historically Black colleges that this is not going to stop us from our mission. It's not going to stop us from teaching racial equity and justice and teaching that we need a healthy democracy. We are going to continue to educate students.
We are historically Black. We are not exclusively Black. So we have students from all countries and all races on our campuses and we're going to continue to do what we are required to do.
KEILAR: Lauryn, I hear you saying that you're just taking it in stride. But at the same time, these are HBCUs, all of them, having these bomb threats. It's the beginning of Black History Month. Do you think this is a hate crime?
DONOVAN: Honestly, I do think that it's racially motivated because it was February first and this happened -- the beginning of Black History Month.
But I also want everybody to keep in mind that like HBCU students are not martyrs for some grand cause, for some grand scheme or movement. We're just students -- Black students, for the most part, simply trying to exist. We're not requesting anything. We go to class every day like anybody at Georgetown or American, or Wash U, or Mizzou. We're not -- we're just not some martyrs for a larger cause.
[07:55:07]
Whether we came to be around Black students, whether we came for the Divine Nine, for the facilities, for the business school at Howard, for anything -- that shouldn't be -- that shouldn't put a target on our back.
I think it kind of -- I think it kind of goes to show what white supremacy does do to us in 2022. You know, this wasn't just something that our ancestors faced that -- you know, figures that are prominent to specifically white people when talking about the -- when talking about the Civil Rights Movement or any movement. We're not -- you know, the Martin Luther Kings of today. We're students simply trying to exist and this is what we have to face.
KEILAR: Yes. Well look, I'm really sorry you're facing it, and we're going to continue to focus on this story and hopefully see where this is coming from.
President Carmen Walters and Lauryn Donovan, I thank you both.
WALTERS: Thank you very much.
DONOVAN: Thank you.
KEILAR: Vaccines for kids as young as six months old could be right around the corner. So why are only a fraction of parents on board?
BERMAN: And CNN takes a look inside Beijing's Olympic Bubble equipped with -- get this -- robot bartenders.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
