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Stacey Abrams Says Criticism of Maskless Picture in School is Silly; Interview with Rep. Adam Kinzinger (R-IL). Aired 8-8:30a ET

Aired February 07, 2022 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:00:00]

JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: So investigating January 6th is recast as effort to destroy Donald Trump. And they describe the House select committee as showing disregard for minority rights, traditional checks and balances, due process, and adherents to other precedent. The jokes write themselves, right, if only this was funny.

And then there's the most damning lot, which rightly dominated the headlines. The RNC saying that the January 6th investigation was engaged in the persecution of ordinary citizens engaged in legitimate political discourse. That's the normalizing of political violence. And make no mistake, legal accountability is nothing resembling persecution. Here's Trump's former National Security Advisor H.R. McMaster to clear up any confusion.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

H.R. MCMASTER, FORMER TRUMP NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR: It was illegitimate political discourse because it was an assault on the first branch of government.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AVLON: This whole condemn condemnation of Cheney and Kinzinger is an Orwellian exercise designed to protect a cult-like cohesion around a party now committed to defending a lie.

And that's the real deal here, because the reason cults hunt down heretics is try to make an example of them, to discourage other people from thinking for themselves and speaking their minds. So their insistence is a measure of how scared they really are.

And here's the thing. Cults end, truth prevails eventually, facts matter. Or, as the RNC chairwoman's uncle, Senator Mitt Romney, "Shame falls on a party that would censure persons of conscience who seek truth in the face of vitriol. Honor is attached to Liz Cheney and Adam Kinzinger for seeking truth even when doing so comes at great personal cost." That's right, and that's your "Reality Check."

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: John, thanks so much for that. And we should note, we are going to speak with Congressman Adam Kinzinger live in just a few minutes.

NEW DAY continues right now.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning to our viewers here in the United States and around the world. It is Monday, February 7th, and I'm Brianna Keilar with John Berman. We do begin with some breaking news out of New Jersey. For the first time since the start of the pandemic, Governor Phil Murphy is about to announce an end to mask mandates in schools, which is a dramatic shift. So let's go right now to CNN's Miguel Marquez. Miguel, what are you learning about this?

MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Look, it's hard to say how dramatic this is, because I think a lot of health professionals out there say it might be too early to do this sort of stuff given how many curve balls the coronavirus has thrown at us. But the New Jersey governor this afternoon is going to announce that mask mandates for schools starting mid-March will end. This follows what the governor in Pennsylvania has done, the governor in Colorado has started to dismantle a lot of those rules. New York, Connecticut, they're also looking at similar rules, dismantling some of those rules coming up.

Essentially, this means that governors believe that the end of the pandemic, at least the pandemic phase of the pandemic, is here, and now, we are moving on to some other phase, endemic, or whatever you want to call it. The hope is that this won't ban mask mandates, as some states have done, but it will allow schools, parents to make their own decisions about whether their kids should wear masks in school. Some kids may continue to do so, others may not. But who ever knew that the little mask would be such a rallying cry for so many and become so controversial. New Jersey, which got hit so hard at the beginning of the pandemic, the cases now during the Omicron phase went way up, and the deaths across New Jersey have also been, were very high at the beginning of the pandemic, and now they are hopeful that all of that is behind us. Back to you guys.

BERMAN: Miguel, can I ask, because every state, there are many different ways that states do this. And I know that New Jersey's plans are still developing right now. Pennsylvania, a month ago, a few weeks ago, said it was ending its statewide mask mandate. Is New Jersey saying that school districts can decide? Or is New Jersey saying what Florida has done in saying you can't require masks?

MARQUEZ: Right. So unlike Florida or Texas or Virginia, where the governors have banned mask mandates, saying you cannot order kids to wear masks in schools, and they try to keep kids from wearing masks in schools, this sounds like, and they haven't announced all the detail yet, But it sounds like he is going to allow at a lower level either city, county districts to make their own decisions. And then parents at the end of the day, if a parent wants their kid to wear a mask in school, some kids will probably be wearing masks for quite some time to come, regardless of what the state says.

KEILAR: It's a very interesting development, Miguel. Certainly, there are, perhaps, repercussions here. We appreciate the report.

[08:05:00]

MARQUEZ: You got it.

BERMAN: So a crucial morning of diplomacy as world leaders try to ward off a Russian invasion of Ukraine. French President Emmanuel Macron is in Moscow right now for talks with Vladimir Putin. That meeting begins any minute, and we expect a news conference after where everyone will be listening for any kind of possible change in Putin's language.

And later today, President Biden will host Germany's new chancellor Olaf Scholz at the White House to discuss a potential Russian invasion and the consequences for Europe, and what Germany is going to do and say about this. It comes as new satellite images show Russian military forces advancing closer to Ukraine's border with Belarus. According to U.S. officials, Russia is 70 percent ready for a full-scale invasion of Ukraine.

Joining me now, CNN senior global affairs analyst Bianna Golodryga. And Bianna, I just want to start with the idea of the current military situation around Ukraine right now, and the direction this has all gone the last few days.

BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN SECURITY GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Right. Well, we actually started seeing Russian troop movement moving from Siberia towards Ukraine last spring, right, and that's what led up to the summit between Vladimir Putin and President Biden. Then subsequently over the last few months, we've really seen a concentration of troop movement around the country, right? And you're going all the way down from Crimea here to the eastern part of the country and from the north.

And where we're seeing a massive concentration is in Belarus, right. And the question is whether or not those troops will actually ever even leave Belarus if and when there would be an incursion into Ukraine, given how close Russia and Belarus are at this point.

But the concern is that there's been such a mass concentration of troops, movements that we haven't seen in decades. And just to give you a sense of the newfound relationships that you've seen between President Xi and Vladimir Putin, we haven't seen a thinned out concentration of troops along the China-Mongolia border with Russia in over 100 years. So it tells you that that is where this movement is going despite what we're hearing from the Kremlin.

BERMAN: One reason for that is because these two guys are now chummier than ever. And to give people a sense, also, of what's happening at the border there, we showed the units in Belarus you were talking about. And we also have the satellite imagery. You can see the level of readiness is said to be much greater than we've seen to this point.

GOLODRYGA: And we've seen an increase even in just the past few weeks, right. The battalion tactical groups, as they're known, just a few weeks ago, the number was around 63. They're now estimating around 83. So that's giving you a sense of what's happened just over the last few weeks.

BERMAN: I do want to ask about the diplomacy today, because this is fascinating. There are two separate meetings, both with huge implications. First, this meeting is about to take place, and at least what I'll be listening to is what he says after. What are you watching for there?

GOLODRYGA: I'm also curious as to what role this man wants to take. He has got upcoming elections in France. And since we've seen Merkel leave the stage, it does appear that Emmanuel Macron wants to replace her as the Putin whisperer, as the person Putin can turn to diffuse the situation. And some of the comments he's made have raised eyebrows over the last few weeks, specifically saying yes, we do have to be sensitive to Ukraine's concerns right now. It is a sovereign state, and we cannot allow for incursion. But Ukraine is not a member of NATO. And that having been said, he has suggested that some of Vladimir Putin's concerns are legitimate. So perhaps there is a third way out here.

BERMAN: And then this meeting at the White House today is really important. President Biden meeting with the new German Chancellor Olaf Scholz. And so many people, leaders, countries, they want to know how firm will Germany be here vis-a-vis Russia.

GOLODRYGA: The largest economy in Europe, the largest contributor to NATO, right, outside of the United States, military spending-wise, and they send 5,000 helmets to Ukraine. Now, German officials will say that's what the Ukrainian officials have been asking for. That having been said, we know what the speculation has been over the past few weeks, that there's a lot of concern about just how intense Germany will be in its approach towards Russia given how much it relies on the country for its natural resources, namely oil and natural gas.

And it's interest, because Olaf Scholz is not a name familiar to many people in the United States, especially after 16 years of Angela Merkel. The first meeting between the two of them, and there is a concern, there had been a leaked memo from the German ambassador to the United States, suggesting that there is an SOS moment here in the U.S., a lot of Republicans and Democrats questioning where Germany stands on this really crucial issue right now.

BERMAN: I think what the United States would like to see is some more heat from him and a little more cooling off from him.

GOLODRYGA: We all would like to see a little more of that.

BERMAN: Arrow down there, arrow up here in terms of what the United States is after. Bianna Golodryga, thanks so much, great to see you here.

KEILAR: Happening overnight, Spotify CEO is finally addressing Joe Rogan's use of racial slurs in previous podcasts over the years. In a memo to employees, Spotify CEO Daniel Ek writes in part "While I strongly condemn what Joe has said, and I agree with his decision to remove past episodes from our platforms, I realize some will want more.

[08:10:07]

And I want to make one point very clear -- I do not believe that silencing Joe is the answer. We should have clear lines around content and take action when they are crossed, but cancelling voices is a slippery slope. Looking at the issue more broadly, it's critical thinking and open debate that powers real and necessary progress."

Here's Rogan apologizing for using those racial slurs.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE ROGAN, HOST, "THE JOE ROGAN EXPERIENCE": I know that to most people, there's no context where a white person is allowed to say that word, never mind publicly on a podcast. And I agree with that now. I haven't said it in years. But for a long time, when I would bring that word up, like if it would come up in conversation, instead of saying "the n-word," I would just say the word. I never used it to be racist because I'm not racist. But whenever you are in a situation where you have to say, I'm not racist, you -- up. And I clearly have -- up.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: Joining me now is Peniel Joseph, the founding director of the Center for the Study of Race and Democracy at the LBJ School of Public Affairs at the University of Texas at Austin, where he is also a professor of history. I have a number of questions, sir, about Joe Rogan's response there. But where he was saying, first, that this was taken out of context, his use of the n-word, what do you say to that?

PENIEL JOSEPH, PROFESSOR OF HISTORY, UNIVERSITY OF TEXAS AT AUSTIN: I understand his defense. I think at times, he's used the full word while trying to talk about people using in a negative context. And I think in those situations, he thought to himself, he can say it.

But I think there's a larger problem here. When Joe in terms of when you listen to the podcasts that have been deleted, when he lands in Philly, a predominantly black neighborhood with friends by accident, and he is saying it's planet of the apes, and he was trying to show it was like Africa. "Planet of the Apes" is a 1968 movie with Charlton Heston about a future where apes have taken over our reality. It has nothing to do with Africa, it has nothing to do with black people, unless, of course, you have a racist stereotyping of black people as apes, which historically has occurred. They called Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., Dr. Martin Akun (ph) Jr. in the south during the 1960s.

So there's a troubling pattern here of not just anti-black racism, but also Mr. Rogan has introduced Gavin McInnes as a great guy, who is the leader of the Proud Boys, a white nationalist group that has proactively tried to foment racial violence and racist violence in the United States. He's been onboard with the folks who are vaccine deniers and other kind of deniers. So I think there's a larger context here.

Now, Spotify has the right to say that this is OK. But I think it's important that the 11 million people who listen to him, I think advertisers have to own up to what exactly he's doing. So this is not a call to somehow cancel Joe Rogan because, if anything, what we've seen is that the rightwing is much better than progressives at cancelling people when we think of the anti Critical Race Theory legislation that actually is cancelling speech and cancelling black history and the history of the holocaust and the history of injustice in this country. So I think this is a complex issue, but I think we have to admit what he is actually doing.

KEILAR: And I wonder how you think Spotify is handling this, because this isn't one episode. This is more than 100 episodes when you're talking about racist language and you're talking about misinformation. That is a lot.

JOSEPH: Yes. And I think what we have to all admit is that there's an audience for this. We have an audience for conservative radio and television. We have an audience for liberal or progressive radio and television. The audience for what sometimes people call movement conservatives, it dwarfs that of liberals and progressives. So there's a bottom line here.

Spotify, this is not Spotify's greatest moment in terms of moral clarity and vision. But they're saying they want to defend Rogan because, really, Rogan, bottom line, gives them -- makes them a lot of money. They invested $100 million in Rogan because they're going to get a return that's much bigger than the $100 million investment, right? What consumers can do and activists can do is say, look, we shouldn't stand on this ground morally and politically.

[08:15:00]

And it is not just about speech. Of course, we should have speech where people disagree with each other, people have debate debates with each other, but when people are spreading and fomenting divisive language and talking about whether it's anti-Black racism, whether it's anti-Semitism, this is fueling that. This is fueling that.

This is fueling the lie of the stolen election, it's fueling the lie that the vaccine is some kind of plot. You know, he has been connected to people fueling the lie of Obama not being born in the United States.

So a lot of this has to do with those 11 million podcast listeners who think to themselves: Hey, I'm not racist. We all have to be honest, that look, there's a pattern here and you may be implicated in that, whether or not you like it.

Does that mean canceling and getting rid of Joe Rogan? That's up to Spotify. But certainly consumers can make their own decision of do they want to be part of this ecosystem, where he's saying this is real talk, but if that real talk includes this racist vision of America, do you want to be a part of that?

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR Look, it's about business, too. We see the stock price, you know, this is no coincidence. Peniel, it's great to see you. Thank you. JOSEPH: Thank you.

KEILAR: New overnight, Chinese tennis star, Peng Shuai breaking her silence at the Beijing Olympics, giving a rare interview though, she answers questions about her sexual assault accusation against a top Chinese official, but a lot more questions maybe than answers here.

Plus --

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GREG LOCKE, PASTOR: You might get rid of that "Harry Potter" mess in your house. That is full blown witch craft. It is witch craft.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: A Tennessee Pastor holds a book burning event throwing "Harry Potter" and "Twilight" into the fire.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: And Stacey Abrams taking heat for this now deleted photo of herself maskless with a group of school kids. Now, she is firing back this morning.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:20:34]

BERMAN: Georgia gubernatorial candidate, Stacey Abrams, pushing back this morning after being criticized for this now deleted photo of her maskless in a classroom full of elementary students.

The Abrams Campaign says: "It is shameful that her opponents are using a Black History Month reading event for Georgia children as the impetus for a false political attack, and it is pitiful and predictable that our opponents continue to look for opportunities to distract from their failed records when it comes to protecting public health during the pandemic."

Joining us now, political reporter from "The Atlanta Journal- Constitution," Patricia Murphy. They say all of that, yet they took the photo down because clearly, they seem to know something about that.

PATRICIA MURPHY, POLITICAL REPORTER, "THE ATLANTA JOURNAL- CONSTITUTION": Yes, I would say this has been not a great moment, early stages of the Stacey Abrams campaign. This was meant to be a very innocuous happy visit to an elementary school, but it really exploded over the weekend into a giant political controversy. It's a controversy about masks, hypocrisy, COVID, mandates, and it is something that I'm sure we will continue to hear a lot about.

Stacey Abrams's competitors have already started fundraising off of it. David Perdue has launched a mini website about it. So, I think they certainly see it as a big vulnerability for her right now. KEILAR: So look, her opponents, they're not good messengers on

criticism of being careful about COVID. And yet at the same time, Stacey Abrams, Patricia, made a mistake and she is not admitting to it. You know, where are we supposed to be in the post Trump era of people just saying like, yes, I screwed that up?

MURPHY: Yes, nobody in this entire debate, I think in this moment has just issued a normal reaction.

Stacey Abrams in an elementary school where we know all children are not vaccinated at that younger age just don't take off your mask. I don't think it's that complicated. I have two kids in elementary school. I saw that picture and I was honestly just recoiled about that.

I don't want to see an adult in an elementary school without a mask on. At the same time, Republicans rushing in to pile on Stacey Abrams is a little ridiculous because Republicans in the state have pushed against mask mandates.

Governor Brian Kemp has asked state and local governments not to require mask mandates, although schools can have mask mandates and that school did have a mask mandate. And then other Republicans have made huge political cries about masks and schools -- masks anywhere in public buildings. And so Republicans are not the perfect messengers here, but I think Abrams could have just said, I made a mistake. I wish I hadn't done it and this would have been over much more quickly.

BERMAN: Patricia Murphy, it is always great to get your insight. Thanks so much for being with us this morning.

MURPHY: Thanks.

BERMAN: So fresh off of firing a Black coach after two winning seasons and now facing discrimination lawsuits, the Miami Dolphins, they made a new hire.

KEILAR: Plus, the Republican National Committee putting their stance in black and white that the January 6 insurrection was legitimate political discourse and that Congressman Adam Kinzinger should be punished. We're investigating it. He is going to join us live next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:27:42]

BERMAN: The Republican National Committee voted to censure Congressman Adam Kinzinger and Congresswoman Liz Cheney for serving on the Committee investigating the January 6th insurrection. The central resolution accused Cheney and Kinzinger of quote, "... participating in a Democratic-led persecution of ordinary citizens." And this is key, "... engaged gauging legitimate political discourse."

Joining me now is Republican Congressman Adam Kinzinger. He is a member of the January 6 Committee. Congressman, thank you so much for being with us. You are a freshly censured Congressman. How does that feel this morning?

REP. ADAM KINZINGER (R-IL): What is this like my baker's dozen of censures now from between local parties and now the national, it feels great. You know, actually, it makes me pretty sad because I think it says a lot for the party and it says a lot to call January 6 legitimate political discourse.

But you know, it's actually just made me even double down in my intensity to get to the bottom of this because that's really frightening when you know, half of the -- in theory half of the country's party is focused on complete denial of truth.

BERMAN: You say it says a lot about the party. What does it say?

KINZINGER: Well, I think it says that they are completely unmoored from truth. I think it shows that they have pledged allegiance to one man over any kind of principle, and they can call that like loyalty, they call that conservatism.

Conservatism is no longer about what you actually believe. It's about how intensely you're loyal to Donald Trump, a RINO now, a Republican in name only as somebody who maybe actually holds to real conservatism and not to Donald Trump.

I think it shows that this party is not committed to the rule of law, despite what they say, and it is not committed to democratic principles small D to get, you know, to one vote, one count and whoever gets the most votes wins.

It's pretty frightening and to see, you know, the chair of the R.N.C., Ronna McDaniel, stand up and try to now recover and say, oh, we only meant legitimate political discourse with non-violence. Well, that's insane because we would not be having a January 6 Committee that I'm being condemned for if it was all nonviolent.

I mean, nobody denies your First Amendment right to have an opinion. We do deny your ability to break, destroy, and try to overthrow an election.

BERMAN: Guys like Marco Rubio, Senator Rubio from Florida. He calls the committee a partisan scam. What else did he say? He said, "You're trying to embarrass and smear and harass as many Republicans as you can get your hands on," on the Committee.

[08:30:09]