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Indoor Mask Mandate Lifted In New York, Joining Growing List Of States; States Lifting Restrictions At Rapid Pace As CDC Keeps Guidance; Activists: 14th Amendment Means GOP's Cawthorn Can't Run Again. Aired 7:30-8a ET

Aired February 10, 2022 - 07:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[07:30:00]

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: Yes. Sanjay, thank you so much for hitting on all of those topics. We appreciate it.

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: You got it. Thank you.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: So this morning, New York joins a growing list of states easing mask mandates. So, what is taking the CDC so long to make this decision?

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Clip from "Lord of the Rings."

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KEILAR: The "Lord of the Rings" franchise is up for sale. The cost of admission, only about $2 billion. We're going to tell you who the leading contender is.

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KEILAR: This morning, New York is lifting its statewide mask mandate for businesses. However, the mandate will remain in effect in schools for now. Several states have announced similar rollbacks against the CDC's advice.

[07:35:04]

And CNN's Athena Jones is tracking all of this. What are you seeing, Athena?

ATHENA JONES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Brianna.

New York Gov. Kathy Hochul citing tremendous progress in COVID case numbers and hospitalizations. Cases in the state of New York down some -- more than 90 percent since their January peak. She says it's time for a new phase of the pandemic. In this new phase, businesses that don't require proof of vaccination will no longer have to require masks. Now, individual businesses, cities, and counties can make their own rules.

And so, we should note that there are still places that you're going to have to still wear a mask, according to the statewide rules -- schools, mass transit, healthcare settings, congregate care settings like nursing homes, and childcare settings.

But I should note it's not at all clear yet just how much this is going to change here in New York City. As I said, cities and counties, and businesses can make their own rules. We could see more of a patchwork of rules and regulations from city-to-city, business-to- business.

The mayor of New York is still -- the mayor's office is still encouraging masking indoors and in crowded places. And, of course, proof of vaccination is still required to enter restaurants, and fitness centers and gyms, and the like.

So, it's just unclear. We're still seeing a lot of people wearing masks. And we know that the CDC has not yet changed their guidance. They are still requiring masking indoors. So we'll have to see just how quickly things change around here.

I took a walk around this entire Union Square, a popular retail destination. Almost every store still had their masking sign up. We'll see how quickly those come down -- Brianna.

KEILAR: Yes. We are in a confusing period, I will say.

Athena, thank you for that.

BERMAN: So, the White House and CDC are standing firmly by their masking recommendations but more states are lifting these mandates.

Joining us now, CNN correspondent Tom Foreman. Tom, where do things stand nationally, and what's changing?

TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: John, just like Sanjay said a little while ago about incomplete data, the truth is when you look around the country right now it's a little hard to pin down exactly where it's all happening because it's different place to place.

But we know that the remaining states that do have indoor mandates are clusters over here in the west and a little down here -- not many. A little more than a half-dozen or something like that.

Look at the ones that are dropping right now -- that are changing. New York -- Athena just mentioned. Delaware -- a different schedule for indoors and in schools -- Rhode Island, California, Connecticut, Illinois, Massachusetts, New Jersey, Oregon. Several of these are blue states -- the notion being that places that were really trying very stringently to control this are now finally saying we think that we can change. It doesn't have to be the way it was.

BERMAN: So, Tom, what's the calculation being made by governors at this point?

FOREMAN: Well, really, it's a three-pronged calculation here.

First of all, there is simply the science of it all. Look at the drop- off that we've had here in new coronavirus cases. And if you look at hospitalizations, you have the same phenomenon. Peaked really high and now is dropping off. That's the science part of it.

The second part of it is sheer fatigue -- the notion that public officials say we do know the public is simply worn out by this. If we can give them a break -- if we can move a different direction, that's good.

And the third one is -- frankly, John, this wall of resistance to those who simply will not get vaccinated, will not get boosted. They are the ones who are suffering from all of this.

And to a degree, I think there has been a lot of states saying we cannot move these people. We can't change them. There's no reason to keep containing all the people who have done the right thing who are protecting themselves. They want some release and now with these new numbers they can give them, especially with spring just around the corner and more ability to be outdoors and not so pushed together.

BERMAN: So, what about the CDC guidance?

FOREMAN: Well, that's where it gets tricky. If you look at what the White House and the CDC are saying it does seem to be in direct contravention to everything else we're hearing. To protect yourself and others from COVID-19, CDC continues to recommend that you wear the most protective mask that can fit will and wear it consistently.

So, they're still saying wear a mask, be careful, while the states are saying enough already. We're ready to get closer to normal.

This, John -- many, many health and public policy experts will say has been a problem from the beginning. Yes, the science has changed. Yes, it's been difficult.

But also, this constant conflict of messages where one health official, one public official says one thing; another one says something else. Even people who are trying to comply in the best way very often are throwing up their hands, saying I just don't know where we stand.

Where we stand now is we're moving out from all of the mandates, generally nationwide. But depending on what business you're in and what setting you're in -- federal building, state building, private business -- you may still be facing some kind of mandates. You just have to look around and sort it out.

BERMAN: All right, Tom Foreman, appreciate it. Great to see you this morning.

FOREMAN: You're welcome. Good seeing you.

BERMAN: So, the legal battle underway against Congressman Madison Cawthorn as efforts to bar him from office for stoking the insurrection gain traction. The congressman's lawyer will join us. Plus --

[07:40:03]

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DOLLY PARTON, SINGER-SONGWRITER: Singing "Nine to Five."

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KEILAR: Service and devotion. The incredible way that Dolly Parton is showing it to her Dollywood employees even if they don't strictly work nine to five.

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KEILAR: One of Donald Trump's staunchest supporters is facing a real threat to his political future. This week, North Carolina's State Board of Elections said it has the power to block Congressman Madison Cawthorn from running for reelection because of his role in the January sixth insurrection.

Liberal activists filed a challenge to his candidacy last month and their argument revolves around a little-used disqualification clause. This is part of the U.S. Constitution that was ratified after the Civil War to prevent Confederate officials from returning to office.

[07:45:03]

And it reads, in part -- this is section 3 of the 14th Amendment. "No person shall hold any office who having previously taken an oath to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof."

And joining us now is Madison Cawthorn's attorney, James Bopp Jr. Sir, I appreciate you being with us this morning.

And I'm just trying to understand this here. Your client has said publicly that running for office is a right protected by the Constitution. He's saying that's being violated by this challenge and by the North Carolina statute.

Where does the Constitution guarantee that right?

JAMES BOPP JR., ATTORNEY FOR REP. MADISON CAWTHORN (via Skype): It's in the First Amendment. The freedom of association that is protected by the First Amendment protects the right to run for office. So, any activity that would restrict -- you know, governmental activity that would restrict -- that would be subject to strict scrutiny. And, of course, we have both a procedure and a claim here that both violate the First Amendment and other due process rights.

So, that's the reason we have filed a suit in federal court to enjoin this unconstitutional effort to really undermine democracy by preventing people from running for office and therefore denying the voters their choice. KEILAR: Well, let's pull up this 14th Amendment, section 3 again -- the disqualification clause. I mean, you do admit that the Constitution also places limitations on who can run for office, right?

BOPP: Of course. There's age limitations. And then this is a disqualification section regarding anyone who engage -- engages in insurrection or rebellion. Now, engage is not talking about speech. It's talking about conduct. And, of course, it has to be a bona fide insurrection and rebellion. And obviously, the people who adopted the 14th Amendment right after the Civil War was thinking about that exact event.

And, you know -- so, you know, Rep. Hawthorn -- the claim against him is he spoke at the rally that occurred -- you know, about 100,000 people on the Mall. He spoke to that rally. Then a few thousand of them went the mile or two to the Capitol, and then a few hundred of those then attacked the Capitol -- trespassed -- you know, broke in and trespassed.

When that happened, Rep. Hawthorn was at the floor of the United States House of Representatives --

KEILAR: OK. Well, but hold on. Let --

BOPP: -- performing his constitutional duties.

KEILAR: OK, but let me -- let me just --

BOPP: He wasn't engaged --

KEILAR: OK, so --

BOPP: -- in that attack at all.

KEILAR: That's not all the 14th Amendment, section 3 says. Yes, it says "engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same." I think that is up for debate if that covers your client.

It also says "or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof." I think that is also --

BOPP: The (INAUDIBLE) also requires conduct. For him to say -- I mean, what they say he said at the rally -- and no other place. He didn't go and --

KEILAR: Well, let's --

BOPP: -- join the mob at the Capitol.

KEILAR: OK, let's listen --

BOPP: He said -- he said --

KEILAR: Then let's listen, James. Let's listen to what he said at the rally on --

BOPP: Sure.

KEILAR: -- January sixth and -- let's listen to that first. We're also going to listen to some of the other things that he said.

BOPP: All right.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MADISON CAWTHORN (R), THEN-NORTH CAROLINA CONGRESSMAN-ELECT: Wow, this crowd has some fight in it. And at 12:00 today, we will be contesting the election. Our Constitution was violated, my friends. I want you to chant with me so loud that the cowards in Washington, D.C. that I serve with can hear you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: He'd also tweeted January fourth that it's time to fight. He had said, "Get ready. The fate of a nation rests on our shoulders -- yours and mine."

And I also want to play something that he said before January sixth about lightly threatening members of Congress. Let's listen.

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CAWTHORN: Get on the phone and call your congressman and feel free -- you can lightly threaten them. If you don't start supporting election integrity, I'm coming after you. Madison Cawthorn's coming after you. Everybody's coming after you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: James, is an argument to be made that he's encouraging violence and that he was reasonably expecting it that day on January sixth?

BOPP: Oh, my gosh. I went to an I.U. ballgame the other day and the cheerleaders led a cheer, "Go! Fight! Win!" Now, if a fight had broken out among -- in the crowd, are they responsible for that? People use the word fight all the time and they don't mean violence. They don't mean literal fighting -- physically fighting.

[07:50:06]

And if we are going to punish people for that sort of First Amendment- protected speech -- well, then who -- Biden said let's go fight COVID. What happens if somebody goes and invades the CDC? Is he responsible for that --

KEILAR: Well, let me ask -

BOPP: -- because he said go fight COVID?

KEILAR: Why did -- why did you client, then, in his own words, bring weapons onto the House floor on January sixth if he didn't have a reasonable -- he said that. He said that -- he said to Charlie Kirk that.

BOPP: He said what?

KEILAR: That he was armed.

BOPP: He's entitled under the Second Amendment to protect himself at all times. And you may know things in D.C. are pretty -- you know, they have a lot of crime in D.C. now and -- particularly because of the Democrat policies. And -- so, there's --

KEILAR: No --

BOPP: -- nothing wrong or untoward or evil about --

KEILAR: No, there is. You're not -- you're not allowed --

BOPP: -- defending yourself --

KEILAR: You're not allowed --

BOPP: -- on the floor of the United States Senate.

Now --

KEILAR: I do not believe you are allowed to bring weapons on to the floor of the United States House or the Senate for that matter, but he did that. And James, afterwards he was explaining --

BOPP: Whatever he was carrying -- whatever he was lawfully carrying --

KEILAR: He was explaining why --

BOPP: Whatever he was lawfully carrying, he's entitled to do that.

KEILAR: He was explaining why he wasn't afraid because he was armed. And it seems a reasonable argument to be made that certainly, he was aware of the risks here with his language and with the concerns that he was arming himself.

BOPP: About his language? Of course, he would be concerned when people were breaking into the U.S. Capitol. Of course, he would be concerned about that. That doesn't mean he did it or engaged in it. And that he is fearful and wants to protect himself from the people that are attacking the Capitol --

KEILAR: Then why --

BOPP: -- indicates he had nothing to do with this.

KEILAR: Why did he then, James, go on in the summer following, talking about bloodshed? Why did he go on knowing what had happened to encourage this?

Let's listen to what he said in August of 2021.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CAWTHORN: If our election systems continue to be rigged and continue to be stolen, it's going to lead to one place and that's bloodshed.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right.

CAWTHORN: And I will tell you as much as I am willing to defend our liberty at all costs, there is nothing that I would dread doing more than having to pick up arms against a fellow American. And the way that we can have recourse against that is if we all passionately demand that we have election security in all 50 states.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: Even after he's --

BOPP: He is talking about -- he is talking about preventing bloodshed and what we need to do to prevent it that people don't engage in it.

You know, this is a sort of radical left-wing attack on people's free speech that is despicable.

KEILAR: No, no, James. Excuse me. James, August 29th -- no, no. James, that's just not true. James --

BOPP: It's despicable.

KEILAR: -- August 29th of 2021, Madison Hawthorn -- the Second Amendment was not --

BOPP: You are calling him someone who is engaged in insurrection or rebellion --

KEILAR: -- the Second Amendment was not written so that we can go hunting or shoot sporting clays. The Second Amendment was written so that we can fight against tyranny. He said that.

He also went on -- the same comment. At the same time he made those comments -- when tyranny --

BOPP: Well, that's a true statement there.

KEILAR: James, pardon me. When tyranny becomes law, rebellion becomes your duty. And when talking about his political opponents he said we all need to be -- he said we all --

BOPP: That's exactly what the Declaration of Independence says.

KEILAR: When talking about his political opponents, he said we all need to be storing up some ammunition.

So he actually saw what happened on January --

BOPP: That's is no doubt a distortion (ph) of anything.

KEILAR: So, let me ask you the -- this is a quote. I'm reading a quote here.

BOPP: You weren't quoting him. You were paraphrasing him.

KEILAR: No, no -- I was quoting him, James, which means perhaps this is a problem for you in court. That is what he said.

BOPP: No, it isn't a problem.

KEILAR: James, he said --

BOPP: He --

KEILAR: -- this is -- may I ask my question, please? He said on the sixth -- right? We heard what he said.

On the seventh, he then went on to tell Smoky Mountain News about the "disgusting and pathetic group of people who are storming the Capitol." He also said at that point, changing his tune, "I can't personally prove fraud and I have really not seen an overwhelming amount of evidence for it."

And yet, he then goes on to use language that reinforces the violence and to say again that there was fraud. You just heard him say that if the election systems continue to be rigged and continue to be stolen. He's continuing to use this language even in the wake of January sixth knowing what happened after that crowd heard it.

BOPP: Yes, and, of course, he was saying that in the context of how do we prevent bloodshed and violence. And that is to make sure that our elections have integrity and are safe.

[07:55:05]

KEILAR: He said they had integrity.

BOPP: So here's the answer. He's condemning -- you're interrupting me, ma'am.

January seventh, he was condemning the people that attacked the Capitol. He wasn't praising them, he was condemning them. He spoke to 100,000 people about fighting for our -- you know, our political rights. That wasn't calling for violence. That wasn't calling for physical fighting.

And that a few people did that later on while he was on the floor of the House of Representatives is not his fault and he was not engaging in insurrection or rebellion.

To call what happened to the Capitol, as despicable as it was -- and I think it was despicable that anyone would break in or trespass at the Capitol.

Think of the Civil War. Six hundred thousand people died. That's what they were talking about when they talked about in the 14th Amendment, passed in 1870 -- when they talked about insurrection or rebellion -- not free speech -- KEILAR: I am -- James --

BOPP: -- or big terms like fighting.

KEILAR: -- I am going to interrupt you just to make a point, which is to be very clear about what your client has said. You say that he condemned them on January seventh.

He went on months later in August of 2021 to call those January sixth defendants, quote, "political hostages and political prisoners." And I have to say, sir, I don't know what gives defendants of an insurrection more comfort or aid than defending them as political hostages or political prisoners.

I really do thank you for being with us this morning. We're going to continue to track this story.

BOPP: Thank you for not letting me answer that.

KEILAR: Go ahead, please.

BOPP: That -- there's a lot of controversy over how the -- those people who have been charged have been treated. Many of them have been in solitary confinement for months for a trespass, committing no violence, no breaking and entering, no anything other than trespass. It's illegal, we agree. But they've been held in solitary confinement for months and months and months.

There's a good argument that some are making that they're not being treated like Antifa thugs who burn down government buildings, that riot and kill police officers for weeks or months in some cities that have been simply let free.

KEILAR: Their conditions are not extraordinary, James, though they do seem to protest them and want special treatment. That is very clear.

BOPP: Well, I know -- I -- to be in solitary confinement or --

KEILAR: James?

BOPP: -- being in jail for months for a trespass --

KEILAR: He --

BOPP: -- is obviously disproportionate --

KEILAR: James, I'm going --

BOPP: -- when people who commit --

KEILAR: We're --

BOPP: -- arson -- left-wingers that are actually trying to take over like they did in Seattle, a whole part of the city. But these people are really occupying and kicking out the police and taking over whole areas of cities and they're let free. KEILAR: James, James --

BOPP: That's controversial.

KEILAR: We appreciate you being with us. We are talking about the Capitol as Congress was certifying an election -- a free and fair and secure election -- a very different thing than you're talking about.

This story will continue. We're going to keep talking to you if you'll talk to us. James Bopp, thank you so much.

We do have some breaking news this morning. White House staff telling Maggie Haberman that former President Trump would routinely flush wads of paper down the toilet.

BERMAN: And a member of the Russian Olympic figure skating team, a minor, has failed a drug test. We have the latest explosive details from Beijing.

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