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Ocasio-Cortez: "Real Risk" U.S. Won't Be Democracy In 10 Years; Assassination Attempt: Mayoral Candidate Targeted In Headquarters Shooting; David Axelrod To Biden: "It's Time For A Little Humility". Aired 7:30-8a ET

Aired February 15, 2022 - 07:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[07:33:37]

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez sounding the alarm on the future of American democracy in a new interview with "The New Yorker."

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DAVID REMNICK, EDITOR, THE NEW YORKER: You used a phrase earlier in the midst of this "if we have a democracy 10 yeas from now." Do you think we won't?

REP. ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ (D-NY): I think there's a very real risk that we will not. I think what we risk is having a government that perhaps postures as a democracy, and may try to pretend that it is, but isn't.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: And David Remnick, who did that interview, is with us now. He spoke with the congresswoman as part of "The New Yorker's" first digital-only issue, "The New Yorker Interviews."

This is an illuminating interview that you did here, David. It's really, really insightful to read. Let's talk about that comment that you seized on where she's talking about maybe not a real democracy in 10 years. What did you think of that?

REMNICK (via Webex by Cisco): Well, it's -- on the one hand, it's startling to hear that from someone in Congress. And at the other -- on the other hand, it's what we're talking about all day on this network and elsewhere. This is the condition that we're in right now.

[07:35:00]

First of all, we have some constitutional structural situations that are antidemocratic. We have a Senate that underrepresents heavily populated areas in the country and way overrepresents less populated areas. So we have all kinds of structural barriers to real democracy -- representative democracy. We have a country that finally seemed to begin to achieve multiethnic, multiracial democracy with the Voting Rights act in the mid-'60s and that's being rolled back at this moment.

Elections are in question. People don't believe -- half the country, which is a large part of the country, chooses to believe Donald Trump's notion about cheating in elections when cheating never took place. And so, there's that kind of rebellion happening.

Look, you see this all over the world -- antidemocratic, illiberal trends, both structurally and ideologically taking place and the United States is not immune -- far from it. We no longer can consider ourselves the oldest continuous democracy in -- according to some outside institutions of real value and real insight.

So, she's not alone in saying this.

KEILAR: Yes. That's a quick timeline, though. She's putting a timeline on it of 10 years.

And there's another part in the interview where you say to her -- and pardon my French on this -- that looking at Congress from the outside, it looks like a shitshow, and she agrees with you that it is and that it looks that way from the inside, too. What did you make of that?

REMNICK: Well, she's in discussions inside the caucus, but you don't have to be inside to see the shitshow that she's talking about. I mean, when you have an institution when Marjorie Taylor Greene or people like that are becoming a normal fact of daily legislative life. When you have even much more powerful people in Congress insisting on believing and repeating the lies that former president comes out with every day, that looks exactly like what Ocasio-Cortez is describing.

You know, there's also real frustrations that she's facing as somebody who's on the left wing of the Democratic Party. We're now seeing, really, the major part of the progressive agenda disappearing from view. So there's real frustration there when it comes to climate change or the ability of working people to get along decently in this country. That is -- that's in real jeopardy.

KEILAR: Yes. And look, she talks extensively in detail about that.

I would encourage anyone, no matter what they think of Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez -- love her or hate her -- to read your interview. It is just incredibly insightful. You cover everything. And I really appreciate you being on to talk about it, David -- thanks.

REMNICK: Always a pleasure. Thanks so much.

KEILAR: A gunman firing multiple shots into a campaign headquarters of a Louisville mayoral candidate, and the candidate narrowly made it out. He's going to join us live, next.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: And the breaking news this morning, Russia announced that some forces surrounding Ukraine are returning to their bases. What does this really mean though, because major military exercises do continue. We'll talk about it, coming up.

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[07:42:42]

BERMAN: A developing story out of Louisville this morning. The alleged shooter in an assassination attempt against the Democratic candidate for mayor, Craig Greenberg, has now been identified. He is 21-year-old Quintez Brown, a civil rights activist and former intern and editorial columnist for the Louisville Courier Journal.

He allegedly walked into Greenberg's campaign headquarters and opened fire. Miraculously and thankfully, no one was hurt. But Greenberg does say a bullet grazed him so closely that it ripped his shirt and sweater.

According to the Journal, Brown disappeared last summer but was found safe in July after he was missing for about two weeks. In a statement after he was found, the family said "We are asking for privacy and would appreciate everyone's patience and support while we tend to the most immediate need, which is Quintez's physical, mental, and spiritual needs."

Joining us now is the mayoral candidate, Craig Greenberg. Thank you so much for being with us. I am so glad that you are OK this morning.

Just take me back to yesterday. You were in your campaign office. The shooter walked through the door, then what?

CRAIG GREENBERG, (D) LOUISVILLE MAYORAL CANDIDATE, TARGET OF SHOOTING: That's right. Thank you for having me. And I think your words about it being a miracle that I'm here today are very fitting.

An individual walked into our campaign office yesterday morning. There were five of us gathered for a morning meeting in my office. We asked if we could help him and he pulled out a gun, aimed it directly at me, and opened fire.

I was fortunate that one of my brave teammates slammed the door shut. They were able to throw some desks on top of the door, and the suspect fled.

So we are very blessed to be here today. All of us on the team are.

BERMAN: What did you think was happening? What was going through your mind?

GREENBERG: It was a surreal experience. I was, in that exact moment, just -- you know, you don't know what's going on. You're just hoping for safety and it all happens in an instant.

And then we immediately called 911 and the Louisville Metro Police Department responded very quickly. And we're very fortunate to have them and their support working to keep our community safe. But it was -- it was a quick blur. BERMAN: Now, I know you say that you weren't physically harmed, rather -- you know, except for maybe some clothes that may have been grazed or ruined, but how are you doing this morning after going through something like that?

[07:45:02]

GREENBERG: It's -- well, fortunately, I'm fortunate to be here. I know that many others in Louisville and around the country are -- their situation with guns ends much differently than mine. And so, my team and I were feeling blessed yesterday. We're feeling blessed today.

But yesterday, mostly what I wanted to do was to get home and hug my wife and sons and be with my family. And it's -- that -- I woke up this morning feeling the same way as well -- just blessed to be here and blessed to be with my family.

BERMAN: Now, we are learning more this morning about the alleged shooter Quintez Brown. He was running for local office. He was an activist -- someone who was known in the community. As far as you know, had you ever met him?

GREENBERG: I don't believe so. I don't think I know this individual. I -- he clearly -- I hoped that -- I wish he would have gotten the help that he might have needed before this incident occurred. Now we need to let the judicial process play out.

But really, it focuses me on the root causes of crime. We have too much senseless gun violence in Louisville and across the country. And I hope that incidents like this can bring people together as opposed to divide us further apart.

Bring us together to work on violence intervention programs. To work on addressing the root causes of crimes. To work on providing mental health treatment to those who need it. These are the things we need to be doing as a city.

BERMAN: Were you aware --

GREENBERG: And I'm more committed than ever -- I'm sorry.

BERMAN: Were you at least aware -- were you at least aware of him or who he was?

GREENBERG: I recall the media reports from last year regarding some things that he had done, but I don't believe I knew anything more than that.

BERMAN: And are investigators talking to you at all about what -- I know it's just been barely a day at this point -- about what they've uncovered or what leads they're following up on?

GREENBERG: So, yesterday we -- my team and I that were all in the office -- we spent the day with the Louisville Metro Police Department going through the interview process. They were very careful to do that in an extremely professional and careful way.

So I don't have many details yet. When I got home last night I mostly wanted to be with my family.

BERMAN: Yes.

GREENBERG: And so, I'll learn more as the day goes on here today. But I'm mostly now going to be focused on the safety of my team, their well-being, and then getting back out to really discuss the needs for working together as a community to end this senseless gun violence. It's just -- it's way too much.

BERMAN: I have two sons, both 14. I don't know how old your -- how old is your son?

GREENBERG: Just older than yours. I have one who's 16 and one who's 18.

BERMAN: What do they --

GREENBERG: One who's in college, so he's not even with us, and that made it even more difficult.

BERMAN: I can't imagine. I mean, just what did -- what did the 16- year-old who was home -- you know, what did he say to you when you got back home finally after you were that close to maybe being killed?

GREENBERG: It was -- it was mostly hugs. It was mostly hugs and tears and trying to answer questions, and just talking about how lucky that we all are knowing that other people don't end up as blessed and as fortunate as I did yesterday and my team did yesterday. So it was a very emotional evening, particularly for my son who's off at college. Doing that by Facetime was also challenging. But it's good to be here this morning.

BERMAN: I've got to let you go, but you were the target? Did the police or authorities say it was clear you, personally, were the target? Was that your impression as it was happening?

GREENBERG: That was my impression. I mean, there were five people in the office and the shooter aimed directly at me and fired at least five shots -- I'm not sure how many -- directly at me. And so, I do believe that to be the case but I don't know anything more than that at this time.

BERMAN: All right, it's terrifying.

Craig Greenberg, I'm so glad that you're OK. I'm so glad that you got to be with your family last night. Best to you and best to your staff as well.

GREENBERG: Thank you very much. I really appreciate it, John.

BERMAN: So, a former senior Obama administration official is encouraging President Biden to exercise caution in his first State of the Union address in two weeks. Why David Axelrod is asking the president to show some humility.

KEILAR: And a historic new crackdown measure enacted in Canada in response to the ongoing trucker-inspired protests. Why some fear that this could add fuel to the fire.

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[07:53:53]

KEILAR: President Biden's first State of the Union address is two weeks away and former senior adviser to President Obama, David Axelrod, is arguing that Biden should proceed with caution when touting the administration's successes and instead, recognize the challenges that still remain, writing in a new op-ed, "Mr. President, it's time for a little humility."

Joining us now is CNN senior political commentator and host of "The Axe Files," David Axelrod.

David, you know, there's a feeling I think and you are sort of running counter to this in what you're saying here. There's a feeling I think that perhaps things at the White House haven't been sold well enough. But you're saying, actually --

DAVID AXELROD, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, HOST OF THE AXE FILES (via Webex by Cisco): Yes.

KEILAR: -- don't go out touting it; use some humility.

AXELROD: Yes. I'm not saying that he shouldn't note the progress that has been made. He's going to talk about the things he's done and he should. But I think it's important not to oversell where we are as a country. We have made progress objectively in the last year but we've been through a terrible trauma and people are still feeling that trauma.

[07:55:00]

You look at the right direction number in polls when you ask people are you going -- are we going in the right direction or wrong direction. It's profoundly negative right now and for good reason. I mean, these last few years will be looked back at by historians as an epically traumatic time for the country.

And whether you're the parent of a schoolchild or someone who has a business that's been affected by closings, or any number of other things, not the least of which is the people who have lost loved ones, we have been jolted.

And really, Joe Biden's greatest strength is empathy and connection, and that's what he needs to show.

I wrote the piece after I watched his press conference on the day before his anniversary of his inauguration. And he was very much selling and talking about how things are so much better than they were a year ago. And people just aren't in the mood to hear that. They want a reckoning of where we are and realistic talk about how we're going to get out of it. And I think if they come away from that with that sense -- if they come away with a sense that he's connected and that he feels what's going on in their lives, I think that will get a long way down the road to being a successful speech.

BERMAN: There is some risk though, David, right? When a president starts -- it's not acknowledging that the country is under stress, but to start to maybe dwell on it, right? Because when Jimmy Carter does it or tried it --

AXELROD: Yes.

BERMAN: -- he ended up getting labeled with the malaise speech even though he never used the word malaise.

But there is that --

AXELROD: Exactly.

BERMAN: -- risk there of not being sunny enough.

AXELROD: Yes, I noted that very thing in the piece. You have to strike the balance. You have to give people hope but it has to be realistic hope.

Listen, I still have the tire tracks on my rear end from the first couple of years of the Obama administration when we were going through another traumatic period during the Great Recession. Joe Biden was there so he'll remember this.

And our instinct was, understandably, to tout every bit of progress we could. Every time the jobs numbers improved, we wanted to tout that. We talked about green shoots and recovery summer, and so on. And it actually backfired on us because it felt to people like we weren't in touch with what was going on in their lives. And we learned how to hit that right balance to talk about progress, but also to talk about all that people had been through and where we need to go in the future.

We set up a contrast, frankly, with the other party when the president was running for reelection about who was fighting for the besieged middle class.

And so, I think you don't want to go to the malaise place on the meter, but I think you do want to acknowledge that we aren't we need to be yet. We're moving in that direction. We understand people's frustration. We understand the trauma that people have been through and here's how we're going to move forward.

I think that's the most important thing he can do.

KEILAR: I think it's really interesting. Look, don't talk people out of their feelings. It very rarely works. So, address them and then kind of pivot maybe to a solution or what you're doing to fix it.

I do want to --

AXELROD: Exactly.

KEILAR: I do want to switch gears and talk about --

AXELROD: Yes.

KEILAR: -- obviously, as we are watching the challenge that the Biden administration is facing with Russia poised to invade Ukraine, we're, of course, looking back to a moment in 2012 where current senator and then-presidential candidate Mitt Romney said this and got criticized for it.

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MITT ROMNEY (R), THEN-PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: These are very unfortunate developments. And if he's planning on doing more and suggest to Russia that he has things he's willing to do with them and he's not willing to tell the American people -- this is to Russia -- this is, without question, our number-one geopolitical foe. They fight every cause for the world's worst actors. The idea that he has some more flexibility in mind for Russia is very, very troubling indeed.

BARACK OBAMA (D), THEN-PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Governor Romney, I'm glad that you recognize that al Qaeda's a threat. Because a few months ago when you were asked what's the biggest geopolitical threat facing America, you said Russia, not al Qaeda. You said Russia. And the 1980s are now calling to ask for their foreign policy back because the Cold War has been over for 20 years.

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KEILAR: Biden himself, David, said "Romney acts like he thinks the Cold War is still on and Russia's still our major adversary."

How do those things age to you?

AXELROD: Well, obviously, not well. I mean, Russia is a maligned force and especially, given some of the tools they have now -- cyber tools and so on. They are a major, major problem and we're going to experience the impact of that for some time.

So, yes, it was -- looking back, it didn't age well, Brianna. I think the president was right.

[08:00:00]