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Sen. Chris Van Hollen (D-MD) is Interviewed on White House Imposing Significant Sanctions Against Russia. Aired 8-8:30a ET

Aired February 22, 2022 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:00:00]

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: Secretary of State Tony Blinken calls the move a clear attack on Ukraine's sovereignty.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: So the administration's language has been tempered, at least so far. The White House has yet to call the new Russian troop movements an invasion. The United States has promised swift sanctions, but we are waiting to see exactly what they are, and if they are the full slate available. This is a deeply serious situation that threatens to upend decades of order in Europe. U.S. officials have already had conversations with Ukraine's President Zelenskyy about the possibility of evacuating Kyiv should it become necessary.

CNN has teams this morning in Kyiv and across Ukraine, into Russia. We are also monitoring the latest developments from the White House, the State Department, and the Pentagon. We do want to begin with Matthew Chance, who is live this morning in Ukraine's capital city of Kyiv. And, Matthew, as we have been saying, the next few hours are crucial.

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely, because the fact that Russia has recognized these two separatist areas in the east of Ukraine has heightened concerns in the U.S., and in, amongst the other western allies as well, there could be a more broad military invasion, military attack by Russia into Ukraine.

The reason for that is this -- the rebel areas, the rebels control just a small part of the broader area that they claim. So they control the small area, but there are other cities that are under Ukrainian control that the rebels say is really part of this territory which has now been recognized by the Russians. So the concern is that with the backing of Russian tanks, they could restart that conflict in the east of the country, and attempt to seize back some of those territories that are outside rebel control at the moment. That would be a major escalation and a proper, full-scale sort of invasion in that area of the country. It's not clear, I have to say, John, at this point, whether the

Kremlin backed that or whether they don't back it. There has been ambiguous messages coming out of Moscow over the course of the past 12 hours or so. We have been watching what they have been saying about what they're actually recognizing. But, again, there is concern that -- a question, rather, about whether this recognition of these rebel areas in the east of the country is the end of this escalation, or whether it could be just the start of something much, much bigger and more dangerous.

BERMAN: And we could get clues to that in the next several minutes or hours. Matthew, Germany announcing that Nord Stream 2 has been halted. How much will that assuage some of the concerns that Ukrainian leaders have?

CHANCE: Well, it is a massive development. This is the biggest geopolitical project that the Russians had. It would massively increase the amount of gas that Russia can sell to the European Union. This is a pipeline, of course, that carries gas from Russia to Germany. And it bypasses, of course, the pipeline network that runs across Ukraine.

The concern was that if that pipeline was given the OK, and the green light, it would mean that Russia no longer needed the pipelines that run across Ukraine to deliver its gas from its gas fields in Siberia to its biggest markets in the European Union. The fact that that pipeline is has now been put on hold is a major blow to the strategic ambitions of Moscow. And you're right, it might, it might discourage the Russians. And I think this is part of the thinking. It may deter the Russians from moving any further into Ukraine and escalating this conflict.

BERMAN: Matthew Chance, terrific to have you there in Kyiv for us this morning. Thank you for helping to explain what we're seeing.

KEILAR: And joining us now to talk about this and give us the very latest is White House Principal Deputy National Security Adviser Jonathan Finer. Jon, thank you so much for being with us at this critical time this morning. Is this, as you see it, as the White House sees it, an invasion?

JONATHAN FINER, WHITE HOUSE PRINCIPAL DEPUTY NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: Look, Brianna, we think this is, yes, the beginning of an invasion, Russia's latest invasion into Ukraine, and you're already seeing the beginning of our response that we have said would be swift and severe. Within minutes of President Putin speaking yesterday, we issued an executive order that effectively blocked all economic activity in the two provinces of Ukraine that Russia has now says belong to somebody else. And then overnight, in a very significant development that you just discussed, the Germans, in close coordination with us and in fulfillment of what the president said would transpire, have told the world that the Nord Stream 2 pipeline will not go forward. You're going to hear from us later today additional sanction steps that we're going to take that go directly at Russia in response to the egregious step that they took yesterday away from diplomacy and down the further path toward war. [08:05:00]

KEILAR: And if Putin has just kind of built that in, the idea that Nord Stream 2 being canceled at least for now, then what?

FINER: Well, I think what the Russians are seeing is exactly the opposite of what they say they want. They say they want, for example, fewer NATO forces closer to their border. What they're getting is a NATO buildup in NATO countries along the Russian border. They say they wanted this geopolitical project, Nord Stream 2, to go forward, to increase European's dependency on Russian gas. Now that is also going to be paused. And they want a vibrant economy for the Russian people, and the steps that we're going to take are going to make that much more difficult as well.

So the question really is, how much and how many of these costs are they willing to endure to continue down this path toward invasion of Ukraine? That's a question only they can answer. But we are very ready with additional responses the further that they move.

KEILAR: So you called this the beginning of the latest Russian invasion of Ukraine. Is that different than an invasion?

FINER: I think latest is important here. Invasion is an invasion, and that is what is under way. But Russia has been invading Ukraine since 2014. They have been occupying large pieces of Ukraine since 2014, including, although they have denied it, Russian troop presence in exactly the two what they call republics, but they're really provinces of a sovereign Ukraine that they recognized yesterday. So Russia is essentially making overt what it has denied for some time, which is Russian troop presence in these places, and we're taking steps in response to that.

KEILAR: Why not call it an invasion? Just call it an invasion instead of this talking point of the beginning of the latest Russian invasion of Ukraine.

FINER: I don't know how much more clear I can be, Brianna. This is the beginning of an invasion --

KEILAR: OK. You could just call it an invasion. I only ask this, because let us play what the administration has talked about before. They didn't talk about the beginning -- this is how they described an invasion. I want to listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, (D) PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: If any, any assembled Russian units move across Ukrainian border, that is an invasion. But, and it will be met with severe and coordinated economic response that I have discussed in detail with our allies as well as laid out very clearly for President Putin.

ANTONY BLINKEN, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: If any Russian military forces move across Ukraine's border, that's a renewed invasion. It will be met with swift, severe, and a united response from the United States and our partners and allies.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What is the definition of "invasion" there, though?

JAKE SULLIVAN, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR: Well, President Biden -- President Biden has spoken to the fact that if a Russian tank or a Russian troop moves across the border, that's an invasion. That is an invasion, and the result of that from our perspective would be the imposition of severe economic consequences.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: I think the distinction here may have to do with the response that an invasion triggers. Why not just call it an invasion?

FINER: I mean, again, I guess for the third or fourth time, I am calling it an invasion. We are taking a severe response, including sanctions on Russia that we'll be rolling out in a matter of hours. We've already taken one significant step, which is this executive order that was announced really within minutes of President Putin declaring these republics independent yesterday. Overnight, to repeat, the Nord Stream 2 pipeline, which has been rightly the focus of a lot of attention both in Russia and Washington and in Europe, the Germans took that off the table as the president said they would if Russia continued to go forward. And we will have additional sanction steps to announce in response to this latest Russian invasion of Ukraine.

So I don't think anything is -- should be left unclear. Very consistent with the statements that you just played.

KEILAR: All right, I did just want to be clear, because some clarity was lacking, actually, from members of your own party, I think, in Congress, including one that we had just interviewed, Congressman Tom Malinowski. So I did just want to pursue that, because I think it is important when it comes to what the response is going to be.

Do you see, then, the staggering of sanctions, of having this first kind of tranche? And mind you, we've had many hours, I think, at this point since Putin has said what he's going to do, recognizing these territories as sort of breakaway, as Russia. Do you think that staggering sanctions of different severity will deter Putin rather than just hitting him with one big hammer?

FINER: Whether or not it deters him, this is going to impose significant costs and consequences on Russia for what it has done. We've always envisioned waves of sanctions that would unfold over time in response to steps Russia actually takes, not just statements that they make. We have always said we're going to watch the situation on the ground and have a swift and severe response according to Russia's actions. Today we have already begun those actions in response, and we have more that we will be rolling out in really just a matter of hours.

KEILAR: The ones that have been announced so far are separate and additional to the swift and severe, correct, is that right?

[08:10:00]

FINER: Yes, the executive order we announced just in response to the action that Russia took yesterday. Again, Nord Stream 2 taken off the table by the Germans in close coordination with us overnight and then we will have additional economic sanctions to announce in the coming hours.

KEILAR: Those are the swift and severe ones?

FINER: They will be significant sanctions against Russia. And I don't want to get ahead of the announcement, but we will have more to say, including all the details, very soon, and they will be significant.

KEILAR: Significant -- this is really important, Jon. I know you know why I'm trying to drill down on this. Does that mean that these will be significant, and then later comes swift and severe?

FINER: Again, these are just -- this will be our severe and swift sanctions response to a Russian invasion. And we will retain the right to impose additional steps, additional sanctions if Russia continues to move forward. That has been our approach all along. We envisioned waves of sanctions that we would roll out on Russia if and as it continues to take steps down the path of war which we believe that they are doing.

We have said that there's another way to do this, that they could pursue diplomacy. The action they took yesterday was a big step, frankly, away from diplomacy and toward conflict, and we're going to impose sanctions in response to that.

KEILAR: In that vein, do you see this Blinken-Lavrov meeting happening on Thursday?

FINER: I think what Russia has done has made a diplomatic path much harder to walk down and much less likely. Frankly, I will leave it to the State Department to determine whether that meeting goes forward. We have been in close consultation with our partners and allies about what the next diplomatic step should be, but they have closed the door even further to diplomacy by the way that they have conducted their business yesterday.

We are not going to slam that door shut. We continue to believe that that is the best way for this conflict to de-escalate, rather than Russia continuing down the path to war. But they are giving every indication that they're on a different course.

KEILAR: Do you have plans to back a Zelenskyy government in exile, Jon?

FINER: Look, we have been in close coordination and consultation with President Zelenskyy. He's still in the chair, in Kyiv, spoke to the president yesterday by phone. We have provided them with $650 million over the last year in just security assistance alone to help the Ukrainians defend themselves, and we are in full support of both Ukraine's sovereignty and territorial integrity and President Zelenskyy's efforts to defend and protect his country. KEILAR: Jon, really appreciate you being with us as we're trying to

navigate what is going on here today. Jon Finer from the White House, appreciate it.

FINER: Thank you.

BERMAN: I want to bring back in retired Major General James "Spider" Marks, CNN military analyst and head of geopolitical strategy at Academy Securities. Obviously, Spider, this is the map we have been looking at, all the troops surrounding Ukraine. I want to focus in, and this is the area that Brianna was really just talking at length, drilling down, as she, put with Jon Finer at the White House. This is the area we're talking about now. These are these two provinces where Vladimir Putin has ordered troops into. What are we seeing right now?

MAJ. GEN. JAMES "SPIDER" MARKS (RET), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, troop buildup continues. There is no -- what we're not seeing is a retreat. What we have indicated is that there will be sanctions, et cetera. But we haven't seen any response to that. And in fact, those troops remain in place, and they're maneuvering. They're moving around, which would put them into more advantageous positions that would allow them to be within effective range of their capabilities. So they could begin operations, excuse me, from where they are right now without crossing the border.

BERMAN: What's clear, though, is that the first movement is from Russia here into this area right here. These are the breakaway provinces, all this -- I'll even circle it. This area here is the area claimed by the Russian-backed separatists. This area here is what they actually control. This is where we think the Russian troops may already be in force as of right now, right?

MARKS: And they are. They are. The Donetsk region and Luhansk regions, there are Russian forces there, and they have been there for eight years. So the additional forces that they bring in, these railheads exist, these lines of communication exist, the road network has been used for years. So it's an easy movement in. And we're seeing forces in these areas preparing for additional movement.

BERMAN: I think we actually have some video that we can look at here. Let's swing the camera around and take a look at some of the things we have seen here. You can explain to us exactly what we're seeing here.

MARKS: These are support vehicles. What you're going to have in the back of this is ammunition. You may have some troops, probably not, but this is logistics stuff. And important to point out, these videos are in this area, right here. In Russia.

BERMAN: OK. So they're moving from Russia into this province. Can I ask, Spider, if they want to go, if the Russian troops that are moving in want to go from this area -- and I'll clear this so people can see it -- if they want to go from this area right here to this area, how do they do it? What happens? How bloody is that?

MARKS: This becomes a fight. This area right here has Ukrainian forces in place. We have a separation line that exists right now. [08:15:01]

Separatist forces, Ukrainian forces, separatist forces backed by Russians today. They have been there for eight years. So fighting occurs along here, not extensive, but fighting -- this is a separation line. So, in order for Russian forces to move from here into the greater Donbas region, this is a fight.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: And there is another fight beyond that, you're watching very carefully. You're looking to see if the Russian troops come down here as well. Why?

MARKS: Absolutely. That would connect this region with Crimea. Putin wants to create a land bridge right here in between this area and Crimea. It connects this entire region.

Let's just do this. It connects that entire region with Russia. That's a strategic advantage that he wants to achieve.

BERMAN: Again, if that starts to happen, what forces does he have? Not just the troops, you also start to deal with naval power as well.

MARKS: Well, you do, you have -- he's got naval forces down here, in here, and he also has built up some forces that are in locations that have been vacated for up to eight years. He has attack helicopters. He's got transport helicopters.

So he is positioning forces in order to facilitate this kind of movement.

BERMAN: What is the next military action you are looking for, Spider, that will indicate where this might go?

MARKS: Definition of invasion, by this administration, is crossing from Russia into this area. This is Ukraine. Although it is Donbas, it is being challenged, this type of a movement is an invasion.

It would be additional forces, you would see logistics, you would see artillery, you would see infantrymen, what Russia wants to try to do is create security as an initial step and you do that with boots on the ground.

BERMAN: Retired Major General James "Spider" Marks, a pleasure to have you here and understanding what we're seeing here. It really is an education. Thank you.

MARKS: Thanks, John.

BERMAN: So, the White House just told us, Brianna's interview with the key national security official, just told us significant sanctions against Russia will be coming soon.

What exactly does that mean? What does that mean for diplomacy? Is there still a possibility for that? A key U.S. senator joins us coming up.

Plus, jurors are now deciding the fate of Ahmaud Arbery's killers at their federal hate crimes trial. The latest on the case, just ahead.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: And swift punishment from Michigan basketball coach Juwan Howard after he took a swing at an opposing coach. How long will the Wolverines be without their coach?

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[08:21:10]

BERMAN: Vladimir Putin ordering troops into Eastern Ukraine, creating a perilous situation and really raising questions about European order.

Joining me now is Democratic Senator Chris Van Hollen who sits on the Foreign Relations Committee and just returned from the Munich Security Conference.

Senator, a pleasure to see you. Is this an invasion?

SEN. CHRIS VAN HOLLEN (D-MD): John, good to be with you.

Yes, this is an invasion of Ukrainian territory. It is a violation of their sovereignty. The real question as you've been discussing this morning is, what do we do next?

BERMAN: Answer that for me.

VAN HOLLEN: Well, I am glad to see the Biden administration impose sanctions on anyone doing business or involved with these breakaway regions. But we do need to go further and I was glad to hear deputy national security adviser Jon Finer say they will be imposing swift and tough severe sanctions on Russia itself, and then the question is how do you -- how do you implement those?

I do believe we should immediately be imposing sanctions on some key exports from the United States and other countries to Russia, things like semiconductors, and then, you know, we'll have to decide how to roll out the other swift and severe sanctions, but some of those need to begin today.

BERMAN: Basically, you think the line has been crossed at this point, that it is time to, you know, drop the hammer metaphorically. I don't mean to be glib here. But it's something that needs to be major, not measured.

VAN HOLLEN: It needs to be major, but that doesn't mean you impose all of your punishing sanctions at once. You can begin very tough sanctions and still hold some very tough sanctions in reserve.

But I do believe that the moment requires the imposition of some of the tough sanctions now. I was pleased to see the German chancellor earlier today announce that they would stop the process of moving forward with Nord Stream 2.

BERMAN: Yeah, that's a big deal. I mean, that's one of the biggest deals, one of the biggest things that can happen to Russia here. That was a German announcement.

I guess the risk here, though, is by being measured or calibrated and no perhaps issuing all the sanctions you could at once or the harshest ones, Senator, is that Vladimir Putin could get a sense of, okay, we can have this part of Donbas and have only a few bad things happen to us, that didn't hurt that bad. What is the risk of sending that message to Vladimir Putin?

VAN HOLLEN: Well, John, I'm not suggesting that we don't ultimately impose all the toughest sanctions for the action already taken. But I -- that doesn't mean you can't roll them out, starting today, with -- as I -- I would suggest, although the administration obviously may have other ideas -- beginning to impose some of those. Blocking of key exports that are essential to Russia's economy.

And the key, really, is to be acting in unison, right? I mean, if we block, say, semiconductor exports but another of our allies continues to provide them, obviously we're not accomplishing that goal. And that's why at the Munich conference that I just returned to, there was such an emphasis on unity because we have to avoid leakage in our sanctions.

And that's why, John, it is so important that the administration have a part with our allies and that will be part of their calculation as to which of the severe sanctions to impose and in what order, because you need that unity in order for them to be effective.

[08:25:02]

BERMAN: And, look, we heard from Ian Bremner, who was at the conference moderating panel. He says he's never seen so much unity at one of the Munich security conferences. That's one of the ironic results of the Russian action here is he's brought the West and NATO perhaps closer together than they've ever been.

I noted, you said you were pleased to hear Jonathan Finer talk about swift and severe actions. It made me wonder, do you think the White House response has been quick enough here?

VAN HOLLEN: Well, I do think that, yes, I mean, I think they are moving -- there were some question maybe earlier today about whether or not the administration planned to take the swift and severe actions immediately. But we got our answer in that interview. So I am pleased to see the administration moving quickly as they have announced.

BERMAN: And do you -- do they -- do you think they're going far enough? Again, would you go further? I know you're not in charge -- but were you in charge, would you be doing things in a bigger way than the administration right now?

VAN HOLLEN: Well, as I said, I'm really glad to hear they're going beyond the sanctions that they have already imposed on the breakaway territories. I think that was the really big question for today.

Are they going to also impose some swift and severe sanctions on Russia itself? To make it clear to Putin, you know, that the pain is not going to be felt just in these breakaway territories, the pain is going to be felt by Russia and by Putin. That was the question. I think we got an answer to that this morning, in the interview that you did.

And that's what I would be doing, is putting in place and getting our allies to put in place some of those swift and severe sanctions right away, today.

BERMAN: I think we got an answer. I think you along with us are waiting to see exactly what is in those announcements that we're told will be within the coming hours.

Senator Chris Van Hollen, it's always great to see you. Thank you for coming on. Appreciate the discussion.

VAN HOLLEN: Good to be with you.

BERMAN: U.K. Prime Minister Boris Johnson set to lift COVID restrictions in the U.K., shifting toward a strategy of just live with it.

KEILAR: And another Trump White House official has been asked to voluntarily cooperate with the January 6th committee. So will he?

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