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New Day

Putin's Alliance with China; Ukrainian Village Hit by Shelling; Emily Haber is Interviewed about Germany Halting the Pipeline; Daleep Singh is Interviewed about Ukraine's Plea to the World. Aired 8:30-9a ET

Aired February 23, 2022 - 08:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:30:00]

JULIA DAVIS, RUSSIAN MEDIA ANALYST: The United States as well.

BRIAN STELTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: But this is how autocrats use the free press to the American's disadvantage. I'd much rather be in a society where you've got the Tucker Carlsons of the world going off on conspiracy theories rather than in a propaganda regime that I think they use that free press in some ways against America by picking up on the sound bites from the Tuckers.

Look, I think ultimately Tucker Carlson, and figures like him, are being isolationist, saying focus on the U.S., just focus on our borders, focus on the southern border, not the border between the Ukraine and Russia. So, that's the reason for some of this right wing media narrative in the U.S. But it comes across as if it's just so reflexively anti-Biden, anti-Democrat, so that, in a way, as Julia is saying, it does serve the purposes of Putin.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Julia and Brian, great discussion. Thanks so much for being with us this morning.

STELTER: Thanks.

DAVIS: Thank you, John.

BERMAN: The breaking news this morning, Russia has pulled all diplomatic staff from Ukraine. Ukraine has told its citizens to leave Russia immediately. We are live on the ground.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: And Germany putting a stop to a crucial pipeline. Crucial to Russia. We're going to ask a -- the German ambassador to the U.S. what else they're prepared to do.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:35:07]

BERMAN: So, as most countries in the west rush to condemn Vladimir Putin's Russia from moving troops into Ukraine, China's response stands out for its unwillingness to say much of anything about Russia's actions. The move highlights the delicate balance between Russia and one of its most important allies.

Joining us now, Bianna Golodryga, CNN's senior global affairs analyst.

This has been remarkable. China has been very specific and careful about not condemning what's going on in Ukraine.

BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN SENIOR GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: And remarkable given that China has historically always valued the sovereignty of other countries, right, in not invading them. Also notable that in 2014, after Russia annexed Crimea, China never acknowledged that as well. But we've seen a lot change in those past few years and we've seen some strange bedfellows now come out of it. And these two call each other best friends. They share a lot of common interests, and a lot of common autocratic views, right? They both extended their terms. Now they can be rulers for life. And they've met some 38 times. The balance has shifted, historically, between the Soviet Union and China's relationship. China was sort of the weaker country. The Soviet Union was a dominant. That's changed now. But we're seeing a lot more shared interest, particularly economically, between these two.

BERMAN: You know, I just read a statistic yesterday that half of Russia's exports go to Europe. And so, obviously, it would be a big loss if Europe were really to tighten the belt and issue harsh sanctions. But if China is on board, they've got somewhere else big to turn.

GOLODRYGA: Well, and you look at those exports, there's not a wide diversity of them. They're all natural resources, in particular gas. But if you look at what Russia and China's relationship has been economically, now China is Russia's biggest trading partner and they give them a lot and sell a lot of natural gas and resources to China as well. China also is a recipient of European assets and European resources. And he -- the belt and road initiative that has been so important for President Xi leading up to the pandemic is really in question now if these sanctions that have been levied against Russia would possibly impact China too.

BERMAN: I guess that would be my next question then, how much rope is Xi willing to give Putin here? Right now I think he's giving Putin everything he wants with relative silence. But is that indefinite? Do you think that will last forever?

GOLODRYGA: Something else these two leaders shared is their own interest come first. So there's a relationship of convenience. Not what we heard from President Biden yesterday when he said, listen, Americans may suffer, but this is for the better -- the good of democracy and freedom around the world. That's not how these two think. They think of how this is best for their country, namely how it's best for them. So, if China sees itself in a position where their economy is going to be hurt by these sanctions, I wouldn't see much love lost between Xi and Putin in terms of China cutting Russia off. At least momentarily as things hopefully cool down.

BERMAN: If Xi starts to lose in Europe a lot, maybe he -- he gets a little sour.

GOLODRYGA: Of course. And he has a relationship with Ukraine as well. They have a $15 billion economic tie between the two of them as well. That's not something that he's looking to sever any time soon.

BERMAN: That's a really good point. Ukraine is not weak. It's not helpless on the economic front either.

GOLODRYGA: Exactly.

BERMAN: Bianna Golodryga, thanks so much. Great to have you here this morning.

GOLODRYGA: Sure.

BERMAN: We'll see you at the top of the hour.

So, parts of eastern Ukraine have already paid the price for Vladimir Putin's actions. CNN has a look from the ground, next.

KEILAR: Plus, Germany pulling the plug on a pipeline that Russia really needs, but for how long? The German ambassador to the U.S. joins us live, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:42:31]

BERMAN: Breaking overnight, Ukraine set to declare a state of emergency as Vladimir Putin gets more aggressive in both rhetoric and the movement of Russian troops.

CNN's Alex Marquardt got a firsthand look at the damage in a small village not far from the separatist area in eastern Ukraine.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ALEX MARQUARDT, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: The situation here in eastern Ukraine, right near the line of contact, which is just over a mile that way, just under 2 kilometers, has been fragile at best. And it is deteriorating significantly.

In just the past few moments, we've been able to hear rounds of artillery fire not too far away. You can see the damage that some of that artillery has done to this tiny village. And you can see how random it is, hitting something like this farmhouse, the roof falling in, this door, which is metal, shredded by shrapnel. There's a field just behind here which is covered in craters. We're told that 16 shells fell on a very small field over the course of just two days last week.

Now, one of the residents who we spoke with, who has a son in one of the separatist-held areas and family in Russia says he doesn't believe that a war is going to start. He says he's not going to leave. That the violence we're seeing is just a provocation.

But there is a real fear among NATO members that soon Russian troops could be right here. President Putin recognizing not just those two breakaway Russian-backed enclaves, but the provinces, these areas that they are in, which, for now, are still controlled by Ukraine.

Alex Marquardt, CNN, in eastern Ukraine, near the line of contact.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KEILAR: Alex Marquardt there on the ground just moments ago.

Now, after the Russian invasion of Ukraine, Germany has announced that it will halt the certification of the much anticipated but controversial Nord Stream 2 pipeline that connects Russia to Germany through the Baltic Sea and that would have supplied Germany with an additional 50 percent of its current annual consumption of natural gas. It is a lot. That pipeline represented a $15 million value to a Russian state-owned company, as well as billions of dollars invested by five European firms.

Joining me now to discuss this is Germany's ambassador to the U.S., Emily Haber.

Emily, thank you so much for being with us.

Can you tell us, Ambassador, how significant a sacrifice this move is for Germany?

EMILY HABER, Germany AMBASSADOR TO THE U.S.: The decision to halt the certification process has been taken yesterday.

[08:45:01]

It has been taken in the face of a major encroachment of international law, of a beginning invasion, of the recognition of two breakaway regions in Ukraine and, by all accounts, the influx of Russian troops into these regions. All of that amounts to a major infringement of international law and of bedrock principles of the post-world war European peace order.

The decision we have taken and we have -- we had committed ourselves last summer, in the joint statement, to take these decisions and others should Russia take aggressive action. We have followed up on that promise. And that will not be the only thing. Today the European Union will adopt sanctions that will target over 300 people in Ukraine that had been involved in the recognition decision (ph) in duma, in the Russian administration. It will affect Russian banks. It will affect Russian sovereign debt and more. That, all in all, is already a major blow to Russia. And it's the beginning response to beginning invasion.

KEILAR: It's also -- it's also going to be tough on Germans. I mean that's the reality of sanctions, right? U.S. sanctions, Americans will bear some of the brunt of that. Same with some of the German actions that you're talking about here as well. And I know that you said that you're making good on a promise

publicly. This -- I think what was a little surprising to Americans was that publicly Germany had not said this was definitely going to happen. There was some assurances coming from American officials. But then it, obviously, came to be.

So, you had said that when the German Chancellor Olaf Scholz was in Moscow last week, he made clear that this was going to happen, that the Nord Stream 2 pipeline would be out. Russia knew exactly what would happen, you said. And yet they still went ahead, declaring these sovereign territories, making plans to send troops in.

What does that tell you?

HABER: It tells us that so far our announcements and our statements on what was going to happen have not been able to deter Russia. That's why it's important to make very clear now. The sanctions we're adopting today will be the beginning. Should Russia decide to pursue its invasion, there will be a next round of sanctions. And there will be unprecedented and massive and will hit Russia hard. It's about deterrence.

Whether we'll be successful or not, I cannot say as yet. But what I know is that at this stage we cannot afford to forgo deterrence in order to prevent development that we certainly don't want to precipitate by taking early punitive action.

KEILAR: How long will this pipeline remain paused for, or will it remain paused until Russia fully leaves Ukraine, even if gas prices spike, even if Germans are feeling the cost, even if Ukraine leaves the headlines and the Russians are still in Ukraine?

HABER: But, look, the pipeline has not been operational. So, halting the pipeline will not contribute to gas spikes. The -- the surge in gas prices happen because Russia is using the energy market before its --

KEILAR: But will -- so then let me just be very clear, how long -- how long will it remain paused? Will it remain paused under those conditions that I described?

HABER: The pipeline has been halted because Putin has crossed a Rubicon (ph), which has altered the international geopolitical environment, along with the security environment, and I don't see Putin -- and that, in turn, has triggered a change of course and I don't see Putin walking back the decisions and steps and transgressions that have triggered our change of course.

KEILAR: OK. And so as long as he remains on that course, the pipeline remains paused, is that what I'm reading from you?

HABER: The foreign minister, only minutes ago in a press conference she has given, stated her resolve and stated the German resolve to follow up on the promise.

KEILAR: All right, Ambassador, really appreciate you being with us this morning. Thank you.

HABER: Thank you for having me.

BERMAN: So, this morning, the Ukrainian foreign minister is urging for more sanctions against Russia. This is what he wrote. To stop Putin from further aggression, we call on partners to impose more sanctions on Russia now. First decisive steps were taken yesterday, and we are grateful for them. Now the pressure needs to step up to stop Putin. Hit his economy and cronies. Hit more.

[08:50:01]

Hit hard. Hit now.

Again, that was a tweet from the foreign minister.

Joining me now is the deputy national security adviser here in the United States, Daleep Singh.

Thank you so much for being with us. Hit more, hit hard, hit now. How do you explain to the Ukrainian foreign minister why you are not hitting harder now?

DALEEP SINGH, DEPUTY NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: Well, John, you know, sometimes I wonder if there's almost a blood lust out there for sanctions unto themselves.

Let me just -- let me just be really clear, we did hit hard yesterday. And it was only a demonstration effect. We shut down an $11 billion natural gas pipeline. We took out two of the major banks in the Russian banking system that controlled $80 billion in assets. We cut off Russia from western financing in terms of government debt, and we put on notice the oligarchy in Russia that no one is safe, and there's a chilling effect now for any oligarch or any crony or their family members that have gained from Russian kleptocracy. They're not going to share in the pain.

But the point -- the point the Ukrainians are making is right, these costs are going to escalate from here. The two largest banks in the Russian economy are $750 billion in assets under management. That's ten times larger. Our export controls, which can deny all of the critical technology inputs to Russia, have yet to be unveiled. We can unveil those at any moment.

And let me also say this, Russia is already feeling the pain. Their inflation rate has spiked higher to almost 9 percent. Their central bank has hiked rates eight times in the past year to 9.5 percent. This is all because of the signaling of sanctions and now we're starting to deliver.

BERMAN: When you say there's a blood lust for sanctions, by whom?

SINGH: I hear it -- I hear it from many in the media, why didn't you impose all of your sanctions on day one? And so what I'm saying to you is, we saw the beginning of an invasion yesterday and -- BERMAN: I was -- I was quoting -- I was quoting the Ukrainian foreign

minister. So, does the Ukrainian foreign minister have a blood lust for sanctions?

SINGH: No. No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying, I hear from questions out there and commentary, people wondering why -- why didn't we implement the full package of sanctions yesterday. And what I'm saying to you is, yesterday was a demonstration effect. And that demonstration effect will go higher and higher. Russia's already feeling the pain. And let's remember the bigger purpose. Our purpose is not to max out on sanctions. That serves no purpose to itself. Our purpose is to prevent a large scale invasion that involves the major seizure of large cities in Ukraine. Our purpose is to prevent human suffering that could involve tens of thousands of casualties. And our purpose is to prevent a puppet regime taking over in Kyiv that bends to the will of Moscow. That's what this is all about.

BERMAN: Is it working?

SINGH: You know, day one is not the way to judge whether it's working. Our purpose here is to make this as costly a strategic choice as possible for Russia. And we do that by imposing economic costs immediately. We do that by degrading Russia's productive capacity, and its access to technology inputs. We do that by fortifying NATO's eastern flank. We do that by helping Europe diversity its energy supplies away from Russia. And, over time, we think this is a very bad, strategic hand that we're dealing Putin. And, in the meantime, the west is more energized, determined and unified than at any point in the post-Cold War era. We think we have the winning hand.

BERMAN: Have the Russians moved troops, Russian troops, into Donbas in the last few days?

SINGH: Here I defer to the Defense Department, John. We're still looking at the evidence. And I would defer to them in terms of their conclusions.

BERMAN: OK. So that's a non-answer, and I respect your choice not to give me an answer, but that's a big deal, right? Either they moved forces in or they haven't, correct?

SINGH: Well, they 've been moving little green men into the Donbas and Crimea for eight years now, into the occupied territories. It appears from reports, open-source reporting, that that continues. But I would defer to my colleagues in the Defense Department to give you a definitive read.

BERMAN: And what have you seen in terms of a change in Russian military posture over the last 36 hours, since Vladimir Putin made the announcement that he did want to send troops, more troops, further invade, as you would say, what have you seen since he made that announcement and now? Has there been a change in positioning or military posture?

SINGH: I would say the summary statement here is, they still are poised and positioned to launch a major invasion, a large-scale invasion across much of the territory of Ukraine, from the north, from the east, and from the south. That has not changed.

BERMAN: What's the situation going forward if things remain static? What happens then?

SINGH: What happens is over time Russia's ability to exert influence and project power on the world stage continues to atrophy. As I mentioned before, look at the baseline conditions in Russia.

[08:55:00]

Inflation is already 8.7 percent. Government borrowing rates are already above 10 percent. The ruble, the Russian ruble, is the worst performing among any emerging market currencies. As we implement sanction and export controls, Russia will take a major hit. It will go through a negative feedback loop in which inflation spikes, interest rates rise, economic growth slows, and their ability to diversity and modernize their economy gets shut down.

Meanwhile, NATO will be fortified. Europe will diversify away from Russian energy. This is the strategic hand that we'll deal Putin.

BERMAN: OK.

SINGH: And it's a bad choice.

BERMAN: Again, we have just about 30 seconds left here, but if Russia -- if there's no further action, if they don't cross the contact line, for instance, if they stay where they are, that would mean no further sanctions at this point?

SINGH: No costs continue to ratchet higher. The violation of Ukraine's territorial integrity and its sovereignty are unacceptable.

BERMAN: Daleep Singh, I do appreciate you being with us this morning. Thank you so much. Obviously, we're all watching this situation very, very carefully, including with our reporters on the ground there. Thank you for your time.

SINGH: Thanks, John.

BERMAN: As we said, CNN following the breaking developments in Ukraine. Ukraine telling its citizens to get out of Russia. Russia pulling its diplomats from Ukraine. Our coverage continues, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KEILAR: On today's CNN's "Homefront," where we bridge the civilian military divide, landmark legislation facing a vote in the House next week. The bill with an estimated price tag of $281 billion aims to expedite benefits and primary care for veterans exposed to toxic substances and burn pits while serving in Iraq and Afghanistan. This could benefit up to 3.5 million veterans if it passes.

During a House Veterans Affairs Committee roundtable, Jon Stewart spoke as an advocate.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JON STEWART, COMEDIAN: There is a great deal of suffering through the veterans community, based on toxins we exposed them to. And they can't go after the contractors who put the burn pits in place when they could have used incinerators because they have sovereign immunity. They have nowhere to turn. They're on their own.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: So, currently, all troops who have a post-9/11 exposure claim to these giant pits of burning trash, right, that were used in so many bases, so many places of combat zones, they have to prove a connection between their illness and their military service to the V.A., which reviews them on a case by case basis.

And the thing, Berman, is, it's almost impossible, you know? And so this is something incrementally that the government is trying to address, but if you listen to veterans advocates, they say, this isn't enough for the people who need the help now.

[09:00:01]

BERMAN: Not enough, but a step -- as step, as I've learned from you and your reporting on this.

KEILAR: Yes, a step in the right direction.

And Jon Stewart is hoping, I think, to make that a bigger step. So, we'll see what happens.

CNN's special coverage continues now.