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Petro Poroshenko is Interviewed about the Russian Invasion; John Sipher is Interviewed about the Russian Invasion; Russians Protest Against Ukraine Attack; Nina Khrushcheva is Interviewed about the Russian Invasion; Chris Krebs is Interviewed about the Russian Invasion. Aired 6:30-7a ET

Aired February 25, 2022 - 06:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[06:30:00]

PETRO POROSHENKO, FORMER PRESIDENT OF Ukraine: With us. We are fighting for democracy and freedom against Russian aggressive. Without any reason, Putin making attack of us. And this -- the maximum (INAUDIBLE), this is the main sanction from the hell (ph). This is direct message from the great leader of the western world. And Putin should feel himself in the hell. This is his future. And your sanction definitely help him to feel exactly like that.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Mr. President, can you tell me what you and the group you are with right now there are armed with and what your intention is if the Russians roll in, in the next few hours?

POROSHENKO: Ah, this is very easy. Just -- my assistants here -- here. This is the Shult (ph) Kalashnikov. We have just the -- let me see, maybe four Nlow (ph) on the 300 members of the battalion of the territorial defense. And we have two machine gun. And we have -- more or less that's it. We don't have any heavy artilleries. We don't have tanks. We don't have an armed personal carrier because we launched this process just a couple days ago.

But -- and we create that for the two days. This is the long life of the people who want a -- enlisted in the battalion but we don't have enough arms for that. And this is their only limit, why their single defense, their normal, ordinary people. Sometimes never be in the army, standing in line now to join us.

This is extremely touchable and extremely great demonstration how Ukrainian people hate Putin and how we are against Russian aggression. This is very clear.

BERMAN: How long do you think you can hold out?

POROSHENKO: Whatever. I think Putin never will catch Ukraine despite -- no matter how many soldiers he kills, how many missiles he has, how many nuclear weapons he has. We, Ukrainian, are free people with a great European future. This is definitely like that.

BERMAN: The former president of Ukraine, Petro Poroshenko, thank you for being with us. Please stay safe. POROSHENKO: Thanks a lot.

BERMAN: The former president of Ukraine on the streets right now as part of the territorial defense, armed, as you could see there, with a number of other people with rifles, also machine guns, waiting for the Russian invasion that could be coming just hours from now into the city center.

This is CNN's special live coverage. We'll be back right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[06:37:05]

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: Breaking news. CNN sources say that the U.S. is concerned that the Ukrainian capital of Kyiv could fall to Russia within days. The city is under attack right now. We just spoke to the former president of Ukraine on the streets who said that Vladimir Putin should consider himself in hell, going to hell.

Joining us now is John Sipher. He worked for the CIA's National Clandestine Service for 28 years and he's now a non-resident senior fellow at the Atlantic Council.

John, thank you so much for being with us this morning.

You tweeted something yesterday that really caught my eye. You said, I'm not a fan of old-fashioned covert action to destabilize governments. But if there have ever a time the CIA was created for, this is it.

What do you think the U.S. should be doing?

JOHN SIPHER, FORMER CIA DEPUTY CHIEF OF RUSSIAN OPERATIONS: Well, I -- it's clear that -- I think the administration's done a good job with a weak hand, to put together as much as they could with our allies to try to support Ukraine and push back against Putin. It clearly, you know, wasn't enough. Vladimir Putin, you know, decided to roll the dice and take this awful move, you know, essentially, you know, murdering people, innocent people in an innocent country that was no threat to him.

But, yes, it's clear that we need to do more. You know, and that's one of the strong arrows in our quiver. This is what Vladimir Putin does almost exclusively. He uses his security services to destabilize and subvert and do sabotage. And, you know, we saw it in our own country in our own election.

You know, we have to be very careful in this country about using those type of covert activities. But, you know, we saw yesterday that the Russian people were surprised by this and are willing to come out on the streets. And if the United States can sort of get information to the Russian people, support the Russian people here, I think that would be a useful thing. Because the thing that Vladimir Putin fears the most, the reason he's doing this, it's about survival. He doesn't want to be dragged through the sewer like Gadhafi was in Libya. And he fears his own people. And so if we can do anything to get information to those people, to use covert means to destabilize Putin, we should -- we should consider it seriously.

KEILAR: We're hearing a lot of new information about just ordinary civilians taking up arms, potentially being part of the resistance. We don't know how many people are left in Kyiv, but I'm wondering what your expectation is here in the hours to come. We heard from a "Wall Street Journal" reporter that we could see urban warfare here in the coming hours.

What do you think this will look like?

SIPHER: Well, I think it will happen. Ukraine has a long history of fighting back against Nazis in World War II, against Soviets and, you know, going to the -- going to the forest to fight.

You know, we shouldn't fool ourselves though. This doesn't mean they're going to stop the Russians or that this could do anything in the short term. You know, Russia has overwhelming power here and probably in a short time frame they're probably going to take over in that sense.

But the Ukrainians are very serious here and they're going to continue to fight and there's going to be a long-term insurgency. It doesn't, you know, it doesn't mean that, you know, Russia is going to lose, but Ukrainians are quite brave people.

[06:40:00]

KEILAR: Yes, maybe death by a thousand cuts over time. We'll see about that.

John, really appreciate your insight here. Thank you so much for being with us this morning.

SIPHER: My pleasure. Thank you.

KEILAR: So, we're going to take you back to the streets of major cities in Ukraine that Russian forces are, as we speak, closing in on. So, stand by for this. This is CNN's special live coverage.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KEILAR: Russian police have detained more than 1,700 protesters in more than 50 cities across the nation on Thursday. Thousands of demonstrators taking to the streets, rebuking their country's unprovoked invasion of Ukraine despite government warnings that participants would be arrested.

CNN's Nic Robertson is live in Moscow with more.

Protesting comes with a heavy cost in Russia, Nic, and yet they are weathering it.

[06:45:00]

What does that tell us?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: It tells us a lot. It tells us that there are a lot of people here who don't want the war, who are disappointed in their leadership. Worse than disappointed. They're angry with their leadership.

I was out on the streets of Moscow last night. More than 900 people arrested there. We saw people being arrested. And there are dozens literally grabbed -- hauled away by -- each person hauled away by at least two riot-clad police. Really roughed up, some of them, slapped into their -- or smacked into the side of the police vehicles, legs spread, searched, and then thrown in the back of the police trucks to be taken away.

And the government says, look, not only do -- you don't have authorization for this, you could get a criminal record. And if you get a criminal record -- and they make a point of telling this, if you get a criminal record, that could count against you for the whole of the rest of your working life.

So, it's a very tough penalty that people potentially face here when they go out. And I think it is notable, very notable, that a short notice protest, protests that are typically crushed by police in the past, so many people came out last night.

John, not just Moscow, but all the other cities you talked about. St. Petersburg as well.

I managed to talk to some of the protesters away from where the police were, obviously, and they told me that they were so angry, frustrated. They called what their government's doing barbaric. This isn't something that's happening in their name.

Here's a couple of them speaking to me.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I cannot express how much pain we feel now.

It hurts because it's our friends, our relatives.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm just scared, shocked. And I don't believe to -- our government.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERTSON: Yes, one lady told me, she said, I want to leave Russia but it's -- it hurt, she said. I love this country. It's my country. I love this country. I could see the pain in her face and the tears building up in her eyes. She said she just doesn't -- can't handle the leadership, doesn't like the leadership. And this are the voices that are -- that are coming out.

But I should stress, it's not just young people. I saw older people there being arrested as well. So this is something that Putin clearly sees is a threat to his messaging and is clearly trying to stamp out fast and hard in a heavy way.

We shouldn't fool ourselves, too. Probably more than 50 percent of the population here actually agree with what he's doing in Ukraine. They've bought into his propaganda. But a lot of people haven't.

Brianna.

KEILAR: A lot of people haven't.

Nic, thank you so much for that report.

BERMAN: All right, the breaking news, U.S. intelligence sources tell CNN they are concerned Ukraine's capital Kyiv, right here, could fall to the Russians within days.

Joining me now is Nina Khrushcheva, professor of international affairs at The News School in New York. She's also the co-author of "In Putin's Footsteps: Searching for the Soul of an Empire Across Russia's 11 Time Zones."

Nina, we've been watching what's happening in Kyiv over the last several hours. This is the city center right here. We know there's fighting here in the northern Obolon district, not far away, just miles now from the city center. We saw the former Ukrainian president holding up a Kalashnikov, saying he is going to resist as long as he possibly can there.

Christiane Amanpour used the word with us a few hours ago, unimaginable. What's happening is unimaginable.

I know, to an extent, you share that.

NINA KHRUSHCHEVA, PROFESSOR OF INTERNATIONAL AFFAIRS, THE NEW SCHOOL: Oh, I absolutely share that. And I'm crying just watching this. Because also in the Russian news, forbidden to report on anything that they are not officially sanctioned. So most of the Russians don't even know that -- that we are going on Kyiv. I mean, we, the Russians, are going in Kyiv, actually part of the Donetsk, Luhansk operation.

So, there is knowledge that some larger going on, but not enough information and they're forbidden. And every news source says, we are only reporting what the -- what we're supposed to do, what the Russians -- the Russian officials tell us to do.

But we are watching this and we are looking at this. And I spent a lot of time in Kyiv. And just two days ago I told you that Putin is not suicidal. He is not going to go into Kyiv, because it's madness. So here, here, here, going in Kyiv. And we are watching like the remake of some horrible, dystopian novel (ph) right now and we are in it. Ukrainians are in it and Russians are in it and they're really going out in droves to protest it.

BERMAN: Look, if Kyiv were to fall -- again, here's the capital, we see all the other movements here. If Kyiv were to fall, what then?

KHRUSHCHEVA: Well, and your reporting was that they are going in Lviv, which wasn't even unimaginable -- unimaginable even yesterday, not even two days ago, because this is western part. It used to be part of Poland. So, how is it possible that they are going to take all the territory and go close to NATO? Because one of the arguments that Putin had is that he doesn't want to fight with NATO. And that's why he's doing the brother on brother killing in Ukraine to avoid a larger war.

[06:50:00]

So, this logic -- but I think, at this point, we should not -- I think I completely agree with President Poroshenko, we should not really apply politician logic to that. This is a madman logic. This is a crazy, historical megalomania that Putin is engaged in. And there's really -- I mean I think I said to you earlier, I think it's a time of start arranging a (INAUDIBLE) trial right now because --

BERMAN: You think what he's doing is that level of war crimes here?

KHRUSHCHEVA: I think it is.

BERMAN: There are air raid sirens going off in Lviv right here. As you're saying, this is close to the border with Poland. This is NATO. Everything happening here, here, here, so close to NATO. I know there are concern up here in the Baltics that they could be next.

You know, if what is happening in Ukraine was unimaginable, is it unimaginable that Putin sets his sights up there or here?

KHRUSHCHEVA: Well, once again, two weeks ago, a week ago, I gave an interview and said, oh, this is ridiculous. I mean of course he's not going to go to -- to the Baltics. He's not crazy. But I am -- I admit it on camera, I am so wrong because we are -- it's a rabid madman. What we're seeing right now, he can possibly go to show that he can -- what he can do. I think at this point, and I think Poroshenko said -- President Poroshenko said it correctly, I think Ukraine now is a proxy war. This is not really -- I mean it is war right next to Russia. Proxy wars usually fought -- used to be fought far away. This is a proxy war. It is the war with the United States.

BERMAN: Anything that can be done to stop him at this point?

KHRUSHCHEVA: I don't think sanctions will help, by the way. Not that they are not needed, they should be, because that's now -- there's going to be a really huge China-Russia embrace. That's why he went to the Olympics. That's why he quoted Xi Jinping, the Chinese president.

More information -- I hate to say it because it's impossible to say, but more weapons to those who are fighting in the streets. It's going to be a blood bath. I don't want to see Ukrainians killed. But what else can we do?

And maybe Europeans can somehow influence Vladimir Putin in the way President Macron is trying to do. Maybe they can convince Volodymyr Zelensky to -- Zelensky already said that he's thinking about neutral Ukraine. Maybe that can be an offer. Although I'm not sure this can stop Putin. I think it's already way, way beyond its -- it's like Stalin Mao crazy.

BERMAN: He's trying to take over the country. And we're watching it unfold.

KHRUSHCHEVA: He trying to take over the continent, it seems.

BERMAN: We're trying -- we're watching it unfold before our eyes.

Nina Khrushcheva, thank you for being with us.

KHRUSHCHEVA: Thank you.

BERMAN: So, we are just getting word, moments ago, of new air raid sirens sounding in major cities all across Ukraine. We're on the ground everywhere.

This is CNN's special live coverage. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[06:56:55]

KEILAR: Our breaking news, the Ukrainian capital of Kyiv right now under attack as Russian forces are closing in there and in major cities.

Joining us now is Chris Krebs, he is the former director of cybersecurity -- of the Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency and a former senior official at the Department of Homeland Security.

Thank you so much for being with us. I'm hoping perhaps you can illuminate maybe why one of the expectations did not come true, which was that we were expecting perhaps internet jamming, coms being down in Ukraine. It has not gone down like that.

CHRIS KREBS, FORMER DIRECTOR OF CYBERSECURITY AND INFRASTRUCTURE SECURITY AGENCY: Yes, it's interesting. I think we have to keep in mind that we're still early in this, you know, 24 or 48 hours. And so the initial plan may not have rolled out as certainly we expected in the cybersecurity community that, as you mentioned, that you'd see some electronic warfare or other sort of cyber-attacks against key infrastructure to blind the leadership in Ukraine, to cut off internet access. Part of the, you know, part of the rationale could be that they wanted a shock and awe campaign to be --

KEILAR: Russia did.

KREBS: Yes, the Russians wanted a shock and awe campaign to be distributed globally. They wanted to intimidate, to strike fear, show how powerful the Russian military happen -- happens to be.

But kind of what happened along the way is the Ukrainians perhaps overperformed and the Russians underperformed. And, in the meantime, now you have these Ukrainian iconic figures, these heroes -- so we heard earlier about the heroes of Snake Island. We've heard about the ghost of --

KEILAR: The Russian warship, go f yourself.

KREBS: Yes.

KEILAR: That sort of viral bit of communication video that has just gone around the world.

KREBS: Right. And we also had this rumor of the ghost of Kyiv, which is a MiG-29, a very, you know, dated fighter jet that may have achieved ace status. So, the first time that a fighter has shot down five opposing jets in -- since Vietnam or perhaps earlier. It's still working to be confirmed. But these are iconic figure. The grandmother and the sunflower seeds that approached one of the Russian soldiers.

So, right now, the meme (ph) war, the information war, is absolutely being won by Ukraine.

KEILAR: But Russia could still take down the internet. When might that happen and what effect will it have?

KREBS: It's, again, it's still early. As you heard yesterday, Secretary Austin has indicated that perhaps they don't even have their full forces in the field yet, the Russians. And, you know, as they evaluate their plans, their tactics, their strategies, it could be that they decide to finally bring in some of those electronic warfare capabilities to take down the internet, radio, tv, telecommunications networks so they can achieve that information dominance, they can have an information blackout, and they can control what escapes.

And so, with that, then we may go dark. We may not have access to some of the reporters in the field.

KEILAR: What can America do to Russian -- Russia on cyber, and are you sure, are you feeling positive about America covering its own vulnerabilities to Russia at this point?

[07:00:01]

KREBS: Well, that's -- that's certainly two different things.

KEILAR: Sure.

KREBS: So, offensively, cyber operations led by cyber command and some of the intelligence community agencies are very.