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More Explosions in Kharkiv; Jeffrey Edmonds is Interviewed about Russia; Refugees Leave Ukraine; Daria Kaleniuk is Interviewed about Confronting Johnson; Biden Slams Putin's War on Ukraine. Aired 8:30-9a ET

Aired March 02, 2022 - 08:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[08:31:18]

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: This morning, authorities in eastern Ukraine say Russia has launched intense shelling and bombing, targeting Ukraine's second largest city, Kharkiv. You can see it right there. Let me push in to show you a closer look. You can see the Russian forces moving closer to the city center.

Our Frederik Pleitgen is just across the border on the Russian side, in the Belgorod region. He joins us now.

Fred, tell us what you're seeing.

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hi there, John. Well, I just saw a couple of military trucks moving towards the front line. They've actually passed. They're going quite fast this morning because we also get the impression from our vantage point here that there's definitely a lot more activity, not just on the ground, but also in the air as well.

As I'm speaking to you right now, and you won't be able to pick this up over my microphone, it does seem to us as though Russian military aviation certainly is circling overhead or flying overhead. It's something that's really been a constant today.

Again, as those reports are coming out of the fighting really intensifying there in the town of Kharkiv, with another major strike on an administrative building, those strikes earlier on a police headquarters and a university building. So, certainly things seeming to pick up there.

The other thing that we're hearing as well here, John, and we can't see it from our vantage point right now because, obviously, the visibility, as you can see with the snow coming down and the cloud cover pretty low is, we are hearing a lot of what appear to be artillery fire outgoing and rocket artillery fire outgoing as well from our vantage point. So that could be an indication that things are pick up around that Kharkiv front line.

Where it appears as though the Russian military might have been somewhat stalled over the past couple of days. Kharkiv, of course, is one of Russia's main objectives. The second largest city in Ukraine. And really one that for an invading force offers the Russians, from their vantage point at least, probably the easiest way to try and get to that town because it's right by the border. It's only a couple of miles down the road that way.

Still, it seems from our vantage point, that the Russians continue to pour more infrastructure, more soldiers on to that battlefield, as perhaps things there not going as well as possibly they had planned. And we do also see some force replenishments also going on. I think we saw some of that earlier today on your show with some Russian military vehicles moving into that area that seemed to be taken from around here, where the Russians do still have a lot of forces staged as well.

So, things going still at a very high pace here. And I would even say, from our vantage point, at least when you hear what's going on above us, you hear the outgoing artillery, it seems to have intensified, John.

BERMAN: Yes, there was a sense that Kharkiv could fall even within one day after the invasion began.

PLEITGEN: Yes.

BERMAN: That hasn't happened a week into it. But that only means an intensified effort and perhaps more suffering for the people there.

Frederik Pleitgen, thank you very much.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: So, as the crisis in Ukraine is escalating, U.S. intelligence agencies are keeping a close eye on Russian President Putin's state of mind, trying to figure out his next move.

Joining me now is former director of Russia at the National Security Council and currently a senior analyst for CNA, Jeffrey Edmonds with us.

Jeff, it is great to have you. Someone who has worked so closely on Russia and Putin. And I wonder what you think Putin's going to do.

JEFFREY EDMONDS, FORMER DIRECTOR OF Russia ON THE NSC UNDER PRESIDENT OBAMA: So I think we're entering a very dark stage here in that given the economic impact that all of -- that sanctions are having, and gas companies pulling out, the longer that lasts, we really need to keep an eye on him because if he starts to think that he's losing control of the state, then it's -- it -- I imagine he'll likely try to escalate out of that and like broaden the conflict outside of Ukraine.

KEILAR: So, explain what that -- what you mean by that because I think what you're saying is, the economy in Russia is just going to hell, right? And it is hard to be just a normal Russian even trying to get money and that potentially is going to destabilize him at home and he's going to be looking around figuring out what to do.

[08:35:08] EDMONDS: Yes, right. I mean if you get chaos, a run on the banks and things of that nature and he thinks that he might -- that this might be his end, he's not going to just simply die in place. He's going to try to escalate out of this. And the way you would do that is either, you know, spark some kind of conflict with NATO, actually bring on an Article 5 or something like that, in a sense threatening the west, like, hey, if you keep these sanctions, if you keep doing this to me, I'm going to make this a bigger, you know, conflict. And that will come with all of the nuclear talk. You know, nuclear threats will continue until morale improves or you take these economic sanctions off me. But the -- he's not going to de-escalate in there and he's not going to just -- he's not going to do nothing if that -- if it comes to that.

KEILAR: So when you heard President Biden basically say last night that Ukraine's not the end of the line for Vladimir Putin, that rang true to you?

EDMONDS: I think to a degree. I think currently he would prefer to partition Ukraine, get a different government in there and leave it at that. Like, I don't think he wants to jump from here to Moldova or the Baltics. But I think that, you know, if he needs to, if he feels like he's going to actually lose power, he might feel he needs to do that to kind of up the ante with the west.

KEILAR: How does the west thread the needle between cornering him and him escalating this and doing something that isn't seen as pacifying him?

EDMONDS: So, I think that's a very difficult thing to do. And I think that the longer these sanctions go on, and I'm not saying they shouldn't, I think they should, but we may have already passed that line. And so these -- you know, it's hard to tell when you put on economic sanctions what the secondary and tertiary effects of those are. And so that needle is actually very hard to thread. I think it's been surprising and pretty amazing the solidarity you've had in the west on this and the momentum that's built up behind it. So, that's a difficult needle to thread and I'm not sure we haven't already crossed that line.

KEILAR: You're surprised by the strength of these sanctions. Vladimir Putin clearly is surprised by the strength of the sanctions as well.

Jeff, great to have you. Thank you so much, Jeffrey Edmonds.

A massive wave of Ukrainians desperately fleeing their homes to escape Russia's violence. Where they're going, what they're willing to do to get out, we'll have that next.

Plus, we're going to speak with the Ukrainian woman who confronted British Prime Minister Boris Johnson.

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[08:41:13] KEILAR: Ukrainians are fleeing their country in droves. The U.N. says that nearly 836,000 have escaped Russia's violence. That is a huge jump. Neighboring countries now opening their arms to those displaced by the unprovoked invasion.

CNN's Ivan Watson is live in Zahony, Hungary, with more.

Tell us what it's like where you are, Ivan.

IVAN WATSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, this is normally a sleepy border town. But these trains come in several times a day loaded with people fleeing Ukraine. And this is just a fraction of the more than 800,000 people who have streamed across the borders in just six days, Brianna. So, it's not -- it's being very carefully organized by the authorities here in Hungary. Kind of one family, one group at a time. This is a very international group of people fleeing. I talked to Indians, Nigerians, Sudanese, and, of course, Ukrainians. I saw a family carrying their red -- their ginger cat in a cat carrier as they came out. People coming from all over Ukraine.

And, meanwhile, on the other side here, we have one group of Ukrainian doctors, women who were outside of the country on a business trip when the war broke out and are going back in shortly to collect their children who are waiting on the other side to bring them back out here to safety in Hungary. This, again, just a fraction of the hundreds of thousands of people who are fleeing.

Now, here in Hungary, people from aid organizations are greeting the refugees. And Hungary and its rail service is providing what they call solidarity tickets. Anybody who can prove that they were living in Ukraine, they get free transport on the trains throughout the rest of Hungary and then to move on into Europe if they then choose to do so. So, there is certainly hospitality here. But then again, this is just a tiny portion of the potentially millions of people. The UNHCR predicts there may be 4 million people who flee Ukraine by July.

Brianna.

KEILAR: Ivan, those are staggering numbers. Thank you so much for that scene, showing us that scene in Hungary. We appreciate it.

BERMAN: So at a news conference in Poland, a Ukrainian activist took on the British prime minister for not doing more to help her country.

Watch.

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DARIA KALENIUK, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, ANTICORRUPTION ACTION CENTER: You're talking about more sanctions, Prime Minister, but Romana Bromovich (ph) is not sanctioned. He's in London. His children are not in the bombardments. His children are there in London. Putin's children are in Netherlands, in Germany, in mansions. Where are all these mansions seized? I don't see that. I see that my family members, my team members are saying that we are crying, we don't know where to run. This is what is happening, Prime Minister. (END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: She also suggested the west should impose a no-fly zone over Ukraine to protect civilians from Russian bombs.

Joining us now is that Ukrainian activist Daria Kaleniuk, executive director of the Anticorruption Action Center, a Ukrainian advocacy organization.

Daria, thank you so much for being with us.

First, I just want to know if you've had a chance to speak to your family inside Ukraine and how they're doing.

DARIA KALENIUK, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, ANTICORRUPTION ACTION CENTER: I spoke to family. I spoke to my team members. And everybody is all across the country, frequently coming to the bomb shelters. In Kyiv it's actually almost every hour there is a siren.

My hometown, Jitomer (ph), was bombed during this night. Yesterday evening the missile hit the residential building and also damaged significantly the hospital for newborn babies.

[08:45:06]

And actually that -- I know that hospital. I gave birth to my two sons there. And newborn babies with mothers, they had to hide in the bomb shelter. And this is happening all across -- all across -- all across the country. It's a devastating situation there.

BERMAN: The hospital where you gave birth to your children, they were in bomb shelters overnight.

Daria, we saw you confronting the British prime minister. Do you feel that the world is hearing you?

KALENIUK: I feel that the world is betraying Ukraine. Particularly wealthy western nations, which were telling to Ukraine to build rule of law, to build a democracy and to come (ph) to their support, but when Ukraine is being executed on the eyes of the entire world for building democracy, the world is staying on the border with Ukraine in Poland and is saying, sorry, but we can't even protect you from Russian bombs. And we are asking, we are fighting. We are not giving up. We are not going to surrender. We know that Putin is evil and that he's organized crime Russia will bring even more evil if we will surrender.

They will kill us. They will destroy us. And we are saying that we are ready to fight, just keep helping us protect to hit Russian missiles which are destroying our hospitals and our kindergartens, our schools, and protect the sky. You know, to evacuate at least children.

BERMAN: Are you asking for U.S. troops to come help in Ukraine?

KALENIUK: I'm asking -- no, I'm not asking for U.S. troops. I am asking for air defense systems, which are already at the border of Ukraine, sitting in Poland, in Baltic states, in Romania, in Bulgaria, to hit Russian missiles over the territory of Ukraine. So these missiles, they are being in Russia already sends hundreds of these missiles. They are flying hundreds kilometers and then they are hitting residential areas, they are hitting oil reserves, they are hitting walls, they are hitting hospitals, and there is no guarantee that they will not hit now nuclear power plants in Ukraine. And we have four of them. And that's a very legitimate question to the NATO. It's a -- it's a -- ultimate security risk for NATO if nuclear power plants will be bombed by Russia, you can't put the fence (ph) at the border and say, oh, Ukraine, it's with you with that. We are -- we are fine. We are -- we ware afraid to even shut Russian missiles to protect -- to protect you.

BERMAN: This morning you wrote, there's no difference between oligarchic networks and terrorist networks. What do you mean?

KALENIUK: I mean that Putin enabled such kind of violence because he parked all his enormous wealth across the world, particularly in NATO member states, using oligarchs. And these are very wealthy individuals who are telling everyone that they are business men. They are not business men. They are simply the wallets and asset holders for Vladimir Putin. And for decades Vladimir Putin was embezzling his country, was using this money in order to park and buy the most expensive mansions and yachts and private jets across the world. And then he used the wealth, which he accumulated, in order to oppress civil society in Russia, to finance propaganda in Russia, and whitewash and brainwash people and citizens in Russia, and he used all the money also and power in order to trigger this devastating war on Ukraine.

And these oligarchs, they are not oligarchs anymore. We have to treat them as a war criminals who were financing and supporting the terrorism performed by terrorism state of Russia.

BERMAN: Daria Kaleniuk, thank you for being with us. Thank you for speaking out and joining us this morning.

KALENIUK: Thank you.

BERMAN: So, we have this new video just in to CNN that shows the defiance of the Ukrainian people. Hundreds of workers and local citizens blocking a road outside a nuclear power plant as Russian forces approach, standing there, in the way of a Russian advance.

CNN's special live coverage continues right after this.

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[08:52:07]

BERMAN: All right, breaking just moments ago, ADP reports that the U.S. added 475,000 jobs in February. That was nearly 90,000 more jobs than economists had expected. And it's a huge upward revision in January as well. So many more jobs added previously than thought too.

This follows President Biden's first State of the Union Address, the first 12 minutes of which were focused on Ukraine.

Let's listen.

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JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The United States Department of Justice is assembling a dedicated task force to go after the crimes of the Russian oligarchs. We're joining with European allies to find and seize their yachts, their luxury apartments, their private jets. We're coming for you, ill begotten gains. And tonight I'm announcing that we will join our allies in closing off American air space to all Russian flights, further isolating Russia and adding additional squeeze on their economy. He has no idea what's coming.

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BERMAN: All right, joining me now, CNN's senior political analyst and author of the new book "Lincoln and the Fight for Peace" -- more relevant today than ever -- John Avlon.

John, we heard the president say last night he's got no idea what's coming. That appeared to be an ad-lib line, by the way, of Vladimir Putin.

JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes.

BERMAN: It seems to me that he is walking this fine line between threatening more action to Vladimir Putin, but also making it clear there's a limit. So, yes, more is coming, but only up to a point.

AVLON: That's right. And that point is no American troops on the ground in a kinetic war as long as it stays in Ukraine. But this was really an energized Biden embracing the mantle of leader of the free world. And it's something that his efforts to create this multilateral coalition, which is unprecedented in terms of the economic sanctions on Russia, he's gotten high marks for. And this was a significant ratcheting up. The U.S. going after the oligarchs along with members of the EU. This is about the risk/reward ratio that Putin's facing and it's one that has clearly blown up in his face and may be eroding some of his support at home.

BERMAN: There is, though, this conundrum for the administration because you don't want to portray the image that you are merely watching what's happening there, right? That you're a bystander as a 40 mile column moves into Kyiv, as missiles continue to hit buildings and kill civilians there. How do you negotiate that limit?

AVLON: Look, there is a -- when you already said you're not going to get American troops involved, there's a limit to how involved you're going to get. I do think this -- the administration is walking this line well because of the unprecedented economic pressures that are being brought to bear that are being felt right now.

You know, there's probably more we don't know that's going on behind the scenes and you got to make a discount for that fact in the fog of war. But I do think this was Biden saying, look, there is no room for neutrality here. This is democracy versus autocracy in real time.

[08:55:02]

And the U.S. is helping lead the western world to contain and confront Vladimir Putin's aggression. There's no ambiguity about that.

BERMAN: You know, you say there's more going on that we don't know. There very well might be.

AVLON: Yes.

BERMAN: I was asked -- I pressed Jen Psaki on that. She wouldn't answer, understandably.

There did appear to be relative unanimity in the chamber when the president was talking about Ukraine.

AVLON: Yes. How about -- even a brief glimpse of bipartisanship, even in a time of war, the fact that you had Republicans standing up and applauding the standing up to tyranny, we'll take it. It's a low bar, considering America's history, but it's a step in the right direction. And there were more, I think, bipartisan applause than people were expecting, especially given the tenor of our recent times.

BERMAN: The Putin fluffers (ph), as it were, have been pushed to the side a little bit it does seem in the Republican Party, or at least if they were there, you know, they weren't in that chamber clapping.

AVLON: They weren't. And there were some people who sat it out for all sorts of nonsense reasons and there were some of the usual suspects who had their own outbursts.

But, you know, what was striking to me in the CNN poll is the significant swing among independent voters. The reason Biden's had a hard time with polling is that you saw, particularly around Afghanistan, independent voters fall away dramatically. But in last night's speech, according to CNN's poll, around 30 percent of independents came in thinking that Biden would move the country in the right direction. That was almost up to 50 percent by the end of the speech.

You see these new economic numbers and his focus on the economy, the middle class manufacturing, you see a broader architecture of what the Democrats would like to run on and how Biden sees himself.

BERMAN: All right, John, thank you very much.

AVLON: Thank you.

BERMAN: Much more of our special live coverage after this.

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