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Russian Forces Seize Ukrainian Nuclear Power Plant After Shelling Sets It On Fire; Nuclear Plant Operator: Managers Working At Gunpoint; U.S., Russia Establish Hotline To Avoid Accidental Conflict; Key Independent Russian Media Close And Suspend Operations Amid Kremlin Crackdown. Aired 6-6:30a ET

Aired March 04, 2022 - 06:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[06:00:00]

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Not been released of radioactive material and the integrity of the reactors has not been compromised. Ukraine's President Volodymyr Zelensky warns that worse could still come.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VOLODYMYR ZELENSKY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): There are 15 nuclear reactors in Ukraine. If one of them blows, that's the end for everyone. That's the end of Europe. All of Europe will have to evacuate. Immediate action must be taken to stop the Russian army. Don't allow the death of Europe. Stop this potential atomic catastrophe.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: Now, President Biden spoke to Zelenskyy about the nuclear threat overnight. Energy Secretary Jennifer Granholm confirming the U.S. has activated its nuclear incident response team.

In the meantime, just heart wrenching new images showing the aftermath of a strike on an apartment complex in a civilian area in Chernihiv.

That woman was screaming kids, little kids. Ukrainian officials tell us at least 33 people were killed, 18 others injured. And in Kharkiv watching Ukrainian civilian speaking into his phone, he's just talking into his phone when he's interrupted by an explosion and heavy shelling.

BERMAN: Moments ago Secretary of State Antony Blinken arrived in Belgium for talks with NATO allies. The goal find new ways to deter Vladimir Putin. We're going to begin our coverage this hour with Nick Paton Walsh. He is live on the Black Sea coast in the key city of Odessa.

Nick, though, I want to start with the very latest from this nuclear power plant, the Zaporizhzhia nuclear plant. Now we are told essentially under Russian control. What the latest? NICK PATON WALSH, CNN INTERNATIONAL SECURITY EDITOR: Yes, it's really the IAEA, the International Atomic Energy Authority that we're sort of turning to for the best information here that we can despite of course their grasp, often being remote and informed by Ukrainian officials.

Their director, Rafael Mariano Grossi is saying that a situation that is very difficult to sustain and very fragile is currently happening at the Zaporizhzhia nuclear plant. The Russian military appears in control but there is an ongoing military operation. He says this is unprecedented completely uncharted waters.

Ukrainian officials are echoing what the IAEA have said to that the integrity of the reactors, it has not been compromised at this point. I mean, it's startling, John, that I would even have to not utter this phrase in 2022.

What's perhaps to have occurred yesterday is a Russian projectile hit one of the outer training buildings are part of the administrative complex of that plant. Now, Russian forces say they came under provocation. I mean, look, we can take that with some pinch of salt, frankly, given they clearly were moving towards that plant and have invaded the country period in the first place.

But we appear to still be seeing this concern about the balance of forces around the nuclear plant. I think their predominant feeling is that Russia has control of it now. There does appear to still be Ukrainian staff within that plant. And that would of course, be the hope I would imagine that they will be able to continue its functioning and be sure that any damage can be fixed.

But we were dealing with this shocking moment last night, John, where I mean, the Ukrainian foreign minister talks about the risk of something that's 10 times as bad as Chernobyl, that's not borne out by the science of what we're seeing and what's occurred since those remarks.

But it's certainly brought to people's attention the fact that we are seeing a nuclear facility in the crossfire here between an invading Russian army and those Ukrainian forces that were trying to defend it. It's an important part of Ukraine's infrastructure simply for the generation of energy. It's quite clear electricity, it's quite clear that Russia has its designs on crippling or controlling infrastructure as part of its desire to increase tension and levers upon population centers. And it seems that this Zaporizhzhia instant, maybe part of that broader move.

But you know, the word reckless has echoed from Western capitals pretty much any organization or nation you want to hear. If this does turn into a nuclear accident, then that will impact significant parts of Europe, it will impact Russia as well.

And so the question I think many people must be asking themselves in Russia, around the world is quite what logic permits Russian forces to consider attacking an installation like this to be something that suits anybody's interest, even the Russian forces there will be subject to radiation where something to go wrong. [06:05:00]

So, this is think another chilling sign of how it is unclear who is really holding the leash when it comes to these Russian forces. What are their red lines? What are they not prepared to do here? The concerns were when we heard Vladimir Putin's 57 minute speech that preceded this invasion, that there may be a lack of logic of channeling, or controlling some of the decisions being made, but last night's fight around a nuclear power station. It's just very strange to even utter those words, was another indication, I think of how there's -- some absence of logic, possibly in what we're seeing here.

The hopes are at this morning, that any damage is not being critical, and that any fighting is now behind us but startling that you and John are even having this conversation.

BERMAN: Indeed it is. And as you yourself said, Nick, firing on a nuclear power plant in and of itself shows that there are no red lines for Vladimir Putin. Nick Paton Walsh in Odessa this morning. Nick, we'll check back in with you. Please keep us posted. Stay safe.

KEILAR: Let's talk about this with Joe Cirincione. He is a Distinguished Fellow at the Quincy Institute for Responsible Statecraft and the author of "Nuclear Nightmares, Securing the World Before it is Too Late." He's also the former president of the Ploughshares Fund, it is a global security foundation focused on nuclear non-proliferation and conflict resolution.

Joe, thank you so much for being with us. As you're watching what happened overnight, this carelessness. What is your assessment of this?

JOSEPH CIRINCIONE, DISTINGUISHED FELLOW, QUINCY INSTITUTE FOR RESPONSIBLE STATECRAFT: Well, Nick is having trouble uttering the words because they have never been uttered before. This has never happened in our history. No one has ever attacked a civilian nuclear power plant for good reason. There are multiple ways such an attack can go wrong, there are multiple disasters that could spring from it. There's an international convention prohibiting such attacks. Russia is a signatory to that agreement. This is yet another international agreement. They have violated an international norm they have shattered.

It's hard to believe that a tank commander could have any knowledge of what is safe to do near a nuclear plant and what is not safe to do. Much of the coverage of this has focused on the robustness of the containment structures and emphasizing that those remain intact. But that is not really the issue.

Number one, a nuclear containment vessel cannot withstand a sustained tank and artillery barrage, just look at what's happening to the concrete structures and cities all across Ukraine. Number two, it's really the electricity and the plumbing that you're worried about, the disaster at Fukushima, for example. The reactors there remained intact during the earthquake and the tsunami, but the electricity was cut off. And that meant you could no longer pump the cooling water through the reactors, through the cooling ponds. This is what we create the heat, that we create the disaster.

I don't think we're out of the woods yet. We got to be sure that those Russians that have taken over this facility, know what they're doing, know how to operate it, that that the Ukrainian engineers that are still there stay on their post. This could get very dangerous very quickly. And this is just the first attack on a nuclear reactor in Ukraine. They were 14, 15 others, I -- we should be terrified about what might happen these assaults.

KEILAR: Yes. I mean, Joe, they're operating 15 others, let's not forget about the four that are not operational at Chernobyl. I mean, if any country knows about the ramifications of a radiation incident, it should be Russia, from what happened at Chernobyl in 1986. And yet, we're seeing this kind of behavior. What would this look like if you saw some sort of radiation incident coming from one of these nuclear power plants in Ukraine?

CIRINCIONE: What we have very good unfortunately, historical evidence to guide us there. Most like the Fukushima disaster. These reactors are very similar to the Fukushima disaster. I was a consultant for ABC News in 2011. And cover this intensely over the month of that disaster. You would see the failure of say the electricity or the pumping systems, the cooling system would no longer be cooling the rods and rods would heat up dramatically causing a thermal reaction that would melt the fuel rods, that would probably melt the whole core the reactor right through the bottom of the containment vessel that's there.

You could see that result in this development of hydrogen gases inside the reactor leading to an explosion of the hydrogen gas. At Fukushima, we had three meltdowns, three hydrogen explosions. If you get an explosion like that, then you're looking at highly radioactive material, you know, kill on contact, radiation levels and spewing that not just around the plant, but 100,000 square kilometers would be contaminated.

[06:10:00]

President Zelenskyy overstated a bit. It wouldn't be all of Europe, that'd be wiped out. But it would certainly impact all of Europe, including Russia.

KEILAR: What do you think Vladimir Putin is doing here?

CIRINCIONE: I think this is a very clumsy, very dangerous and you heard the word and that's the only word I can think of reckless way of trying to strangle Ukraine of trying to terrorize Ukraine. He's clearly trying to cut off the electrical supply to freeze out the Ukrainians, convince the Ukrainians to surrender. So you -- we can expect more of this. He's going to go to the sources of electricity. In Ukraine's case that is primarily nuclear reactors.

And so he's going to see more assaults like this on power plants, including the other nuclear reactors. That's his goal. It's absolutely insane. It's dangerous. Something I'm afraid he's going t go horribly wrong. Fortunately, this one seems to have survived the fight. KEILAR: Yes, but this may not be the last time that we talk, unfortunately. Joe, thank you so much for your insights on this.

CIRINCIONE: Thank you, Brianna.

BERMAN: All right. We do have some breaking news. This just in from the company that operates that nuclear power plant in Zaporizhzhia right now. The head of that company just put a post out that said, quote, Russian forces entered the territory of the nuclear power plant, took control of the Personnel and Management of the nuclear power plant. Today, there is no connection. The station management works at invaders gunpoint.

The staff, they were admitted in the morning to perform their duties. We do not currently have a direct connection to the station. We get information from sources at the station, that again from the company that owns and operates, it's saying that the management they're working this morning at Russian gunpoint, much more on that as we get more in.

In the meantime, as you can see here, the Russian invasion of Ukraine continues in intensifies. And here in the United States, it's led the Pentagon to create a hotline of source to communicate directly with the Kremlin to avoid accidental military conflicts.

CNN's Barbara Starr is live at the Pentagon with the details here. Barbara, you know, look, we're talking about Ukraine right here if people can see the borders, a whole lot of NATO nations nearby. What is deconfliction mean here?

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, one wants to be optimistic, of course, but in this environment, very difficult to see how this will work. And the Pentagon is holding its cards very close about when and if it picks up the phone dials that hotline number to Moscow and raises concerns.

What this is about is basically a telephone number. Each side can call each other. The Pentagon will not say what circumstances would trigger a phone call. But the idea is, there will be a communications link in an emergency to keep us forces in Russian forces as far away from each other as possible with so many U.S. -NATO aircraft operating right on that Eastern flank right up to the border and the Russian invasion force, lobbing missiles, flying jets, dropping bombs, there is concerned about any miscalculation that could lead to any kind of confrontation, any escalation between both sides.

Look, they have one of these in Syria. And it's worked fairly well for many years. There have been incidents, but they've managed to steer clear of each other largely. We will have to see if this one works. We will have to see if it's actually meaningful.

But let me just add very quickly the next step, a no fly zone. Absolutely. The Pentagon says they will not do that. They are sticking with President Biden's orders. Of course, no fly zone, no U.S. pilots in any kind of scenario that could put them into combat. John. BERMAN: I'm glad you cleared that up, Barbara, because my question is, this deconfliction in no way is meant to be any kind of deterrent, correct?

STARR: It is not. And I think in this current environment, one should be very as I say, be very careful about being optimistic about it. It is not a deterrent. The idea is to keep U.S., from the Pentagon point of view, is to keep U.S. troops safe.

Look that is tight airspace. Those Russian jets, the ones that drop the bombs, fire the missiles, the Russian ground attack, that can edge very close to the border of NATO's eastern flank. We are talking about U.S., NATO and the national troops of Poland, Romania, the Baltics. They are all operating within their national space right up to their borders on that Eastern flank, you're pointing to, and the idea is to keep everybody on their own side of the border. We will have to see how all this works out.

[06:15:03]

BERMAN: Barbara Starr at the Pentagon, thank you so much for your reporting.

STARR: Sure.

BERMAN: All right, Russian forces now occupying the largest nuclear power plant in Europe. I can show you where that is on the map right here. This is after shelling it overnight setting a building on fire. The owner of this plant wrote moments ago that management is working at gunpoint. We have breaking details ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BERMAN: We have brand new images just into CNN a Russian rocket hit a school in Zhytomyr. This is the northern part of the country. You can see the destruction there to this school building and facility. According to Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelenskyy, this again is a school. This comes as Russian forces have fired on in and now occupying the Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant. We can show you where that is. It is in the southern part of Ukraine.

[06:20:03]

Workers, we are told are now operating there at gunpoint. Joining us now General Wesley Clark, former NATO Supreme Allied Commander, CNN military analyst. General Clark, I just want to start with what's happening in the nuclear plant. We did hear from the head of the IAEA, that the plant, no radiation leaks, no sign of serious damage to the reactors, but the word that the people running it are operating under gunpoint this morning, the significance of that?

GEN. WESLEY CLARK (RET.), FORMER NATO SUPREME ALLIED COMMANDER: Well, I think that they're going to operate it as well as it in any way. Anybody in a nuclear power plant is always operating with the understanding that if things go wrong, it's extremely dangerous. And they don't like operating it under gunpoint, I'm sure. But they're going to operate it under gunpoint and keep it safe.

The question is, what do the Russians do with the power? Do they cut the power? This is 25 percent of your brains power. And so it looks to me like a strategic move on the part of the Russian forces to grab hold on the power plants cut off the power and Ukrainian further puts pressure on Zelenskyy to surrender.

Putin's plan is to crush the Ukrainian military forces occupy the cities, cause humanitarian disaster until Zelenskyy, or the other authorities in Ukraine say OK, OK, we give up, we give up you can have our country. That's the plan right now. And the United States is standing by.

Now I'm happy to see we put up this contact with Moscow to make sure there's no error or inadvertent contact. We know how to do that. That's no big deal, should have been done a long time ago. But the question is, we're trying to get in support to keep Zelenskyy and Ukraine in the fight. Will it be sufficient? And at the same time, on the other hand, what we're doing is you're imposing sanctions economically to try to tear down the Russian economy.

How much impact will it have? And what's the balance as we go forward with this? Is it -- are we putting the sanctions on in proportion to the number of civilians he kills and the disasters he creates? Are we going to do it all at once? And do we think it's going to stop it? What is the plan here? This is what people are asking me offline. They're saying what is going on with this? What's going to happen?

In the 1990s, when Serb dictator Slobodan Milosevic invaded Bosnia and put Sarajevo under siege, the United Nations stepped in, we put a peacekeeping force in there, and eventually, we had to get a peace agreement we put NATO forces in, and Bosnia was relieved of the invasion. What's going to happen here? Is it just a continuing humanitarian squeeze while we punish the Russian economy with some sanctions? Are we going to stop the slaughter that's going on there?

BERMAN: Well, but you suggesting putting troops then?

CLARK: I think that, you know, there's some enormous policy issues that are arising as this as this action unfolds here. And these are issues that, you know, Vladimir Putin said yesterday, it's right on plan. Well, we know it's not right on his plan, because he wanted, you know, three days seizure of Kyiv, but he is getting control of the information space in Russia.

So the Russian people are not being told the truth about what's happening. We've got to make sure that we penetrate that information space and explain to the Russian on the world what's happening. We've got to come up the answer to this.

BERMAN: Let me ask you, General Clark, again, you look at this aberration nuclear plant, you can see this is sort of on the tip of the spear of the Southern invasion of Ukraine by Russia. They're moving up from the Black Sea coast. We have our Nick Paton Walsh, he was in Odessa right now. And there's concern. There's concern that the Russians have their eyes on this entire coast. What was the significance be if the Russians were able to gain control of all of that, what do you see them trying to do here?

CLARK: Well, this gives Russia easy access to Ukraine, and their best avenues of approach to Kyiv are from the south. This also cuts off any prospect of reinforcement from the south for the Ukrainian people. And it puts pressure on the neighboring NATO countries. And it gives Russia greater control of the Black Sea space so it becomes more of a Russian lake.

It is a convenient, easy avenue of approach. It secures Crimea. But going north from that, from Zaporizhzhia north there's also a Russian operation, because they're trying to trap the Ukrainian forces that were fighting to contain Donbas. And Ukrainian forces there up north of Zaporizhzhia have to either stay there and risk being encircled, or they've got the retrograde back across the Dnieper River to reinforce the -- and break encircle around Kyiv.

[06:25:00]

BERMAN: Right there. General Wesley Clark, appreciate you being with us this morning. Thank you very much.

So this morning the Kremlin working to rewrite the narrative of this unprovoked invasion of Ukraine, we're joined by a Russian journalist who's being silenced by her government.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KEILAR: The Independent Media is among Russia's targets in this war as the government aims to block information and stymie dissent. Many media outlets have been forced off the airwaves and the internet and that includes Russia's independent radio station Echo of Moscow. And joining us now to discuss is Karine Orlova. She is a journalist at Echo of Moscow Radio.

It's already been difficult to be part of the independent media in Russia. You do so sort of with a lot of risk. This is sort of a new assault that we're seeing here. Echo of Moscow has been liquidated.

KARINA ORLOVA, JOURNALIST, ECHO OF MOSCOW RADIO: Yes it has absolutely. So, Echo of Moscow was a symbol.