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David Petraeus is Interviewed about Russia; Russia Threatens Business Leaders; Refugees Flee Ukraine. Aired 8:30-9a ET

Aired March 14, 2022 - 08:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:30:00]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Now, the Biden administration not saying that this attack has at all dead-ended efforts to revive the Iran nuclear deal, but we already know that there are a number of stressors that are complicating those efforts.

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BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: Some new concerns this morning after a Russian air strike hit a large military base in western Ukraine just miles from Poland, which, of course, is a member of NATO. The attack killed at least 35, it wounded more than 130. That is what we are learning so far.

And joining us now is retired four-star Army General David Petraeus. He is the chairman of KKR Global Institute, previously served as the CIA director and the commander of U.S. Central Command.

Sir, thank you so much for being with us.

I wonder what your reaction is to this occurring so close to the Polish border.

GEN. DAVID PETRAEUS (RET.), CHAIRMAN, KKR GLOBAL INSTITUTE: Well, I've been to that base, actually. It was a sprawling training center. And it highlights the possible risk of spillover into NATO member countries. Russia clearly was trying to interdict the resupply effort that probably is organized there and so forth, that also probably a volunteer reception center for the foreign volunteers that are streaming into Ukraine as well.

But, of course, as you noted earlier, it's very close to the border with Poland. I'm sure that U.S. and NATO officials have discussed these kinds of scenarios. I suspect they already have ways that they would respond depending on what scenario comes about.

But, again, it's a really big concern because it shows how this could spill over. And it could involve NATO countries directly, rather than indirectly, as is the case right now.

KEILAR: How would that spill over? I mean, being so close to the border, whether it's intentional or unintentional, how would that spill over into Poland? What might that look like?

PETRAEUS: Well, again, the Article 5, an attack on one is an attack on all, that's the bedrock, the keystone commitment of NATO. It's only been invoked once, by the way, which is after the attacks on the U.S. on 9/11. And if this does happen, there does have to be a response by all of NATO presumably. And again, as I said, I'm sure that they have thought through various ways that again NATO could respond, how it might either increase its support for Ukraine in ways that it hasn't considered so far, how it could even perhaps return something in kind in some fashion. Again, depending on where it came from and how significant it is.

KEILAR: Do you think there is a high chance or that it's even inevitable that Russia ends up in a conflict with NATO?

PETRAEUS: It's certainly a possibility, but I don't think that it is inevitable. I don't think Russia wants to open another front in a war that's already going badly for it. They already don't have enough forces. They already apparently don't have enough supplies. That's why they had that request to China for resupplies and for various systems that we thought they had in their arsenal as part of this massive rebuilding of the military that we heard so much about undertaken by Putin over the last decade ago, which turns out not to be -- have been quite so massive and not with as much modern equipment as we had thought.

So, again, it is possible, but I don't think that he wants to bring further involvement of NATO countries into this. I suspect that at some point in the near future Russia will start to seriously consider what kind of off ramps might be possible. And I suspect that in addition to discussing the Russian request to China for resupply, something that China can't welcome and they may literally just sidestep it. You know, they don't want to be on the wrong side of history, joining what is clearly becoming the evil empire, in the case of Russia. The U.N. general assembly, when you get over 140 countries to vote to condemn a country for its actions, abstaining in that case, as they did, is awkward. Providing weapons would be entirely different. And it's just possible they will say they didn't get any such requests, that this is fake news. It will certainly be a discussion between Jake Sullivan and his counterpart in Rome today, as will, I suspect, in starting to think about what off-ramps could be there, because China doesn't want to see the collapse of Russia either, but it does not want -- it doesn't welcome this at all to begin with. Keep in mind that Ukraine's biggest trading partner is China.

KEILAR: Yes.

PETRAEUS: And that President Xi really just wants calm and stability and no drama as he is in the months leading up to the fall gathering of the party, in which he will be re-elected for an unprecedented third term.

KEILAR: So, can I explore, sir, something. You said about an off-ramp. What are you looking at that gives you an indication that Russia may be ready to find one and what might that look like? PETRAEUS: Well, I don't want to predict something imminent. But,

again, the fact that negotiations are still taking place, the fact that clearly the economic consequences of this are going to start to come home to roost in Moscow probably this week.

[08:35:06]

At some point they're going to begin to default on the rollover of their debt payments. At some point, again, the people are going to realize, you know, the stock market is never going to reopen. We aren't getting much for our ruble anymore. Various products that they used to take for granted are just not going to be on the shelves at stores. Again, this is starting to happen and it will escalate in the weeks that lie ahead. McDonald's is closed, for example. You know, that's a real penalty to be clear.

So, people will be unemployed. The jobs that they previously had will not be available because countries are literally -- or businesses are literally decoupling from the Russian economy. As this continues, again, the pressure on Putin is going to build. He will not show it. He's going to try to appear to dismiss it and so forth. But I think that's a reality that he is going to have to confront. These are unprecedented sanctions. Again, we've never seen anything like this.

And another pivotal issue will be whether or not China supports the central bank of Russia when it asks for its reserves back that are being held by China. As you know, over half of those reserves are held in U.S. and western countries. And there's a pretty substantial portion that China has as well. So it's very, very awkward for China. Again, does not want to be seen as propping up what is clearly becoming the evil empire. And they're going to try to find an off-ramp if they can as well. And they are certainly among the likely negotiating partners or catalysts for this, along with, say, the president of Finland, maybe the prime minister of Israel, the president of France and a few others that come to mind.

KEILAR: You --

PETRAEUS: But I think as the stalemate continues on the battlefields of Ukraine -- and there's really not been that much progress for all of the effort that's going on. And, by the way, Russia also, I don't think, has replacement troops for those who are committed. What is the rotation going to be as they use up these units, as they become combat ineffective? They've got a lot of challenges that lie ahead of them, even as clearly so do the Ukrainians as food and supply and so forth begin to run out in places that ultimately will be encircled by Russian forces.

KEILAR: Before I let you go, I want to ask you about this Iranian strike in Irbil that you saw explosions very close to the U.S. consulate. This was a message received loud and clear. What do you make of this?

PETRAEUS: Well, the Iranians know that government formation is taking place in Iraq. They are reportedly in their final stages. We may actually finally see the selection of a president and a prime minister. It does not appear that the Iranian-supported political parties are going to be part of that coalition. They do not like that. They don't like that they've not been able to push American forces out of Iraq. The small element that we have that still remains. The Iraqis want us to stay there to help them with counterterrorism activities against the residual Islamic State insurgents and terrorists.

So we'll have to respond in some way. I seriously doubt that it will be on Iraqi soil because we don't want to put more pressure on the U.S.-Iraq relationship. And hopefully this will not derail in any way the process of, again, finally forming a government in Baghdad.

KEILAR: Sir, thank you so much. General Petraeus, really appreciate you being with us this morning.

PETRAEUS: A pleasure, Brianna. Thank you.

KEILAR: The number of western companies, we were just talking, here's one, McDonald's, that are closing shop in Russia is continuing to grow. What a new report says Russian prosecutors are threatening to do to them, next.

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JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: This morning, Russian prosecutors reportedly warning the heads of western companies in Russia that they will arrest anyone who criticizes the government over its invasion of Ukraine. Now, Russia is denying this report, it's in "The Wall Street Journal," that says that Russia is also threatening to seize assets of any company that leave the country, including McDonald's and Coke.

Joining me now, CNN's senior global affairs analyst, Bianna Golodryga.

These threats from Russia, you say, are a part of their MO.

BIANNA GOLODRYGA, CNN SENIOR GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: It's something that we've seen them do over the past many years, but especially this last year. And if you go back to September, obviously before Russia invaded Ukraine, the same threats were delivered at tech companies for using the Navalny app, right, going into the voting for Duma (ph) elections. And so this is a tactic that they used before. Clearly now they've really upped the ante.

BERMAN: These companies have made their decision at this point. I don't think that anything will get them to change that decision. I'm not quite sure what impact these threats have from Putin on the private sector.

GOLODRYGA: Well, it's showing that they have nothing else to resort to, right?

BERMAN: Right.

GOLODRYGA: These are all western companies that have come and started business in -- and chains, in Russia. That having been said, these threats are against people and employees who remain in Russia, which is why the State Department has been urging employees to get out as soon as they can because what they are literally doing is going up to executives that are there on the ground saying, if you say anything against this war, if you say anything that we don't like against the Kremlin, you face jail time. They are literally making up laws as we go.

BERMAN: We've got some new reporting just in from CNN's Kaitlan Collins, our chief White House correspondent, that says, in the last phone call between President Biden and President Zelenskyy, Zelenskyy pushed for even more sanctions, even more economic impact on Russia.

What would or could that be at this point?

GOLODRYGA: Look, these are unprecedented sanctions that we've seen leveled against Russia. And as you and I were talking off air, we don't know what the long-term consequences will be. But the one major threat that Russia still poses to the west is their production and sale of oil and natural gas, right? So that clearly is something that western Europe is dependent on even more than the United States.

But there's even talk now as to whether western European countries can start sanctioning oil and gas exports as well. That would be a big blow to their economies, but they are trying to really ratchet things up to see if there's any place where they can finally deter Putin from continuing his aggression in Ukraine.

[08:45:05]

BERMAN: Apparently, Zelenskyy asked for the U.S. to step in and try to block Russia's access to international waterways. I have a hard time seeing how that would happen.

GOLODRYGA: Yes, that would be difficult. But remember what Russia is trying to do here in the ports and why so many eyes are on Odessa. Russia clearly wants access to warm sea water there for port access there. And if they do get Odessa, then you have what is virtually a landlocked Ukraine right there. So that is why there's a lot of concern about what's going on here in the Black Sea and the Sea of Azov.

BERMAN: People talk about warm water ports. That's a century's long quest by Russia there.

GOLODRYGA: Of course. In 2022, yes.

BERMAN: Bianna Golodryga, thank you.

Yes, exactly, it's 2022, but we're seeing a mentality that's centuries old. No questions about that.

Now, 2.7 million refugees have now fled Ukraine, that's according to the United Nations, heading to neighboring countries. We are live at a ferry port in Romania where refugees are crossing the border this morning.

Stay with us.

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[08:50:05]

BERMAN: So, this morning, as the Russian shelling of Ukraine intensifies, the number of refugees fleeing Ukraine keeps climbing. The U.N. estimates at least 2.7 million have now fled Ukraine since the beginning of the Russian invasion.

CNN's Miguel Marquez is live at an entry point in Romania, across the river from Ukraine.

Miguel, what are you seeing there this morning?

MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, this is Isaccea. And I want to show you exactly what's happening here right now.

We just had a very large ferry come across the river with hundreds of refugees from Ukraine. It is incredibly organized here in Romania right now. They've gotten very good at this in the last couple of weeks. So you see the people way down there. They are coming off that ferry. They've been processed down there so that their paperwork can be done. And then it's a pretty easy way to move into the country or to other countries.

And, literally, like the person with the reflective vest is a volunteer helping each family come through, carrying their luggage. This is what most people have. They have -- it's the mom with a bag, a child, maybe two children, and a rolling bag, and that is about it. We saw some people with dogs. One woman had a dog and two cats. And then they -- they figure out here where they are going to so that they can move them into either different tents or they have buses available wherever they're going.

And then over this way they have everything. You can get a hot dog over here. There's hot meals back behind here. And then all the stuff that a family might need over here.

Look, the Romanians say that the number of refugees is moderating right now, but what they are concerned about are the total numbers of those internally displaced refugees in Ukraine. Tens of thousands of them near the border, both in the north of Romania and in the south, where we are now, that as the Russians move west, the concern is that -- is that they are going to have a massive number move in and across their borders in the days or weeks ahead.

Back to you guys.

BERMAN: You know, Miguel, I have to say, a hot dog truck at a refugee point. I'm not sure I've ever seen anything like that. And what that says to me is that while it's good -- it's no doubt a good sign for these people coming in that things have been routinized and systemized here, but it also shows the sheer number of people that have come over here, the wave of humanity that's moved over the last few weeks. MARQUEZ: Yes. It is -- it is incredibly hard to see. To -- what's

really difficult is to think of what horrors are being wrought on the citizens of Ukraine in their cities. We meet them coming in from here and, you know, they've been traveling for a couple of days. They look like they've been traveling for a couple of days. They are relieved to get here. A woman was handed a bottle of water and short time ago and she burst into tears when that happened. To see that and to think of what's happening there, and then to realize how the Romanians have stepped up, not only here at the border, but everyday people, taking them in.

You know, we visited one home last week where they're taking in dozens of Romanian refugees in one single home. That dissidents between how horrible things can be and how wonderful humans can be is just -- it's a shock and it's difficult to really take on board and reconcile.

Back to you.

BERMAN: Yes. I mean we use the number, it's like 2.7 million people. That's 2.7 million hearts broken as they leave behind the country that is their home.

Miguel Marquez, over the border in Romania, thank you so much for being there.

An award-winning American journalist shot and killed in Ukraine. We're going to hear from the photographer who was with him and also wounded, ahead.

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[08:57:57]

KEILAR: An award-wining American journalist was shot and killed by Russian forces in Irpin, Ukraine. Brent Renaud was working on a project for Time Studios that focused on the global refugee crisis. Renaud's reporting partner, Jose Arredondo (ph), was shot as well as they were covering the Ukrainian refugees who were fleeing across bridges in Irpin.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What happened to you?

JUAN ARREDONDO, AMERICAN JOURNALIST: We were -- we crossed one -- the first bridge in Irpin. We were going to film other refugees leaving. And we got into a car. Somebody offered to take us to the other bridge. And we crossed a checkpoint and they started shooting at us.

So, the driver turned around. And they kept shooting. There's two of us. My friend is Brent Renaud and he's been shot and left behind.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

KEILAR: Renaud's best friend, Christof Putzel, joined us earlier.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRISTOF PUTZEL, FRIEND AND COLLEAGUE OF BRENT RENAUD: Brent believed in the truth and the story more than anything else. And that was the most important thing to him.

Brent did it for the love of the profession and because he believed in it so much so that he gave his life for it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: And another very tragic development this morning out of Ukraine. A pregnant woman from the maternity hospital in Mariupol, when the Russians bombed it, has died, along with her baby. You may recognize this image of her. She was a woman being carried on a stretcher outside the hospital last week. And according to the Associated Press, medical teams did not have time to get the woman's name before her husband and father came to claim her body so she did not end up in one of Mariupol's mass graves. A horrific reminder that Vladimir Putin's war is stealing the futures of many families.

BERMAN: And when you look at that picture right there of the pregnant mother we now know is dead, and when you hear the story of the journalists killed, they're part of the same continuum here, right? When you're targeting journalists and when you're targeting the innocent, it is depraved an it tells you what's happening on the ground there.

[09:00:03]

And that's the story we're seeing every single day in Ukraine.

KEILAR: Yes, a disregard for human life. It is playing out moment by moment.

CNN's coverage continues right now.