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Zelenskyy Warns "Third World War" If Negotiations With Russia Fail; Ukraine Rejects Russia's Demand To Surrender The City Of Mariupol; Senate Begins Supreme Court Hearings For Ketanji Brown Jackson. Aired 7:30-8a ET
Aired March 21, 2022 - 07:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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[07:30:40]
BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: As bombings continue in key cities like Kyiv and Mariupol, Ukraine's president is calling on Russia to negotiate to end the conflict.
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VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, PRESIDENT OF UKRAINE (through translator): I am ready for negotiations with him. I was ready over the last two years. And I think that -- I think that without negotiations we cannot end this war. But if these attempts fail, that would mean that this is a Third World War.
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KEILAR: Let's talk about this now with Anders Aslund, who is the author of the book "Russia's Crony Capitalism," and Julia Ioffe, founding partner and Washington correspondent at Puck.
Third World War. Julia, what did you think about what he said?
JULIA IOFFE, FOUNDING PARTNER AND WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT, PUCK: Well, he is kind of giving voice to something everybody's been talking about, whether openly or tacitly. I do think it's interesting the way he communicates with each individual audience. He finds something for each individual audience that will resonate with them.
When he spoke to the British Parliament, he invoked Winston Churchill. When he spoke to the American Congress, he spoke about 9/11 and Pearl Harbor. When he spoke to the Israeli Parliament, he spoke about the Holocaust.
So, it is interesting that he -- I mean, he is such a good communicator, right? That's what he was before all of this started. He really knows how to get people to pay attention and to provoke some kind of feeling that will put them on his side.
KEILAR: He also said, Anders, that it's time to restore territorial integrity and justice for Ukraine. I think there are a lot of observers saying how is he going to get that from Vladimir Putin?
ANDERS ASLUND, AUTHOR, "RUSSIA'S CRONY CAPITALISM": Well, it's clear that Putin is not winning this war. The Russian troops have stalled on all fronts over the last week and now, the Ukrainians started taking back more territories. For example, north of Kyiv.
And yesterday, there was a Ukrainian opinion poll out saying that 93 percent of Ukrainians think that they will win the war. The Ukrainians are very confident and calm.
KEILAR: Well, how do you think Putin thinks about it, though? Does he think he's losing?
ASLUND: I think that Putin thinks that he will escalate and escalate, and that's what we're all worried about. And I think that's the reason why President Zelenskyy talks about a Third World War.
KEILAR: That's what clear is that Putin is just going to escalate. He's going to throw more bodies at the problem. He's going to throw more equipment at the problem. Ultimately, though, is that going to cost him? What do you think his calculus is?
IOFFE: I worry that for Putin, it's become existential and that he cannot lose this. And whatever way we frame winning and losing, I think he cannot be seen by his own people, by the world to have lost to a country he doesn't think is a real country by a people that he calls "little Russians."
And so, I worry that the harder the going gets for the Russians -- and we don't even know what kind of information he's getting. We don't know what he's being told and what he sees. Because so far, we saw the intelligence getting to him as leading to massive miscalculations, which is leading to this meat grinder.
But I worry that the harder the going gets the more he's going to throw at it because he simply cannot lose. Because if he loses, that's kind of the end of him, too.
KEILAR: What's he capable of, Anders, and how can Ukrainians truly withstand that?
ASLUND: Well, the next step would be to get all results that he can get. It seems to be very little, indeed. And the hardware is essentially not available upon -- from all these rockets that they have in massive amounts. After that is the big question if he will use something like chemical arms or worse.
But the ultimate question is what will people in Moscow say about it? Can he really get away with this in his internal circle?
[07:35:00]
KEILAR: I think the Ukrainians have clearly been underestimated in all of this. But when you talk to observers, a lot of them are not quite as optimistic as you, Anders. They think that Russia still has the upper hand here just with the way that they keep pressing forward. I mean, what do you say to that?
ASLUND: Well, I say that they're being (INAUDIBLE). They look upon how much hardware there is and how many soldiers but -- when you should look more carefully at what the Ukrainians claim now is that they have taken out one-third of the Russian hardware -- tanks and more than half of the helicopters. They claim that they have killed 15,000 Russian soldiers, which is enormous -- as many as the Soviet Union lost during nine years in Afghanistan.
But you see here everybody in the West just ignores these numbers. I don't think that's correct because this is the best account we have.
IOFFE: Well, I think it's important to take this stuff with a grain of salt. It's the fog of war but also the fog of propaganda from both sides. And I don't -- you know, of course, you can see that the morale is very high among the Ukrainians, but how do you conduct an opinion poll when people are in bomb shelters across the country?
So I think we should take all of this with a grain of salt and recall that we're not even four weeks or a month into this war. A lot can still happen. I think Russia still has a lot of resources it can throw at this. They're starting to draft men of fighting age across Russia. They're pulling more equipment toward the border. I'm not saying, either way, they'll win or lose, but I think it might be a little too early to predict this one way or the other.
KEILAR: Yes. I think one of the things we've learned is maybe don't predict --
IOFFE: Yes.
KEILAR: -- right? Don't predict. Things have not gone according to expectations, for sure.
Anders, Julia, thank you so much to both of you for that.
We do have some more on our breaking news. The city of Mariupol coming under heavy bombardment. Officials there say bombs are falling every 10 minutes. Plus, in Kyiv, a shopping center -- a large shopping center bombed -- destroyed. CNN is there live as the capital declares a new curfew.
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[07:41:26]
JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome back. I'm John Berman in Lviv in western Ukraine.
Russia has demanded that the city of Mariupol surrender to Russian forces -- a demand that the Ukrainian government has denied -- rejected.
During his address to the Israeli Parliament yesterday, President Zelenskyy likened rhetoric from Moscow with that of the Nazis during World War II. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ZELENSKYY (through translator): They called it the final decision on the Jewish issue. And I'm sure you will -- you remember this -- I will never forget this. And if you listen to Kremlin you'll hear the same words -- "the final decision." But this time, in regard to us -- to Ukrainian issue -- Ukrainian problem.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BERMAN: And joining me now is the former Ukrainian ambassador to Austria, Olexander Scherba. Ambassador, thank you so much for being with us.
I want to talk to you if I can, not directly about Mariupol but about the idea of negotiations -- which President Zelenskyy says he still wants to talk to Vladimir Putin. But when he says negotiations, negotiations over what?
OLEXANDER SCHERBA, FORMER UKRAINIAN AMBASSADOR TO AUSTRIA: Well, it's a big question, frankly, because the demands that Russia enters negotiations with from the very beginning are just insults to Ukraine -- Zelenskyy should resign -- or at least this is how they started. Ukraine should lay down the weapons, get disarmed. De-Nazification, which would mean in plain terms that Russia gets to remove physical (INAUDIBLE) that they don't like in Ukraine.
Plus, the delegation on these so-called negotiations from Russia is mostly -- exclusively, actually, a lightweight unlike Ukraine's delegation, which is an intimate circle of President Zelenskyy.
BERMAN: There's a story in The Wall Street Journal today which says that Russia has abandoned its plan A, which was to take Kyiv and to topple the Ukrainian government of Zelenskyy -- and is now on plan B, which would be negotiate -- trying to secure negotiations over neutrality. What does Ukrainian neutrality mean?
SCHERBA: Well, it's a very, very delicate and difficult topic for Ukrainians because -- for any nation, actually. I worked in Austria for a while and Austria became neutral because it lost war. And we're not losing this war. Actually, I think we can pull it off with the right amount of support. And facing us, we can pull it off. We can win this war.
So, delivering this kind of win for Putin -- what he means by that probably Ukraine denouncing the target and the aim of entering and becoming a NATO member. There is some wiggle room in that -- in this particular point -- on this particular point, although many, many people in Ukraine would very strongly object to it.
BERMAN: In addition to neutrality, where you say there might be some wiggle room, The Wall Street Journal also suggests that Putin wants some territory. At a minimum, an admission that Crimea, which he -- Russia annexed. Ukraine has never given up. He would want Crimea and also those eastern regions, which there have been territorial disputes. Would Ukraine ever agree to that? SCHERBA: No, of course, not. If we agreed to other countries taking away -- annexing our territory, then we cease to exist as a country, basically. It just -- no one does. No country would do that. So, it's a nonstarter whatsoever.
[07:45:03]
BERMAN: So you can see the difficulty. When people talk about negotiations and talk about these issues one can see why it would be or will be so difficult but at some point, maybe necessary to save lives.
Ambassador, great to see you. Thanks so much for joining us.
SCHERBA: Thank you.
BERMAN: So, coming up for us, multiple explosions heard overnight in Kyiv, including a huge blast at a shopping mall. CNN is at the scene, ahead.
And back in the United States, confirmation hearings set to begin for Supreme Court nominee Ketanji Brown Jackson. What we can expect to see.
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KEILAR: Happening today, historic confirmation hearings begin for Judge Ketanji Brown Jackson who is the first Black woman ever nominated to the U.S. Supreme Court. Democrats have the votes to confirm Jackson on their own but the hearings will most likely be contentious as many Republicans search for a unified message to oppose her.
[07:50:09]
CNN's Paula Reid live for us inside Capitol -- inside the Capitol hearing room there with more. What are we expecting here, Paula?
PAULA REID, CNN SENIOR LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, good morning, Brianna.
In just a few hours, Judge Jackson will take her seat right over my shoulder here across from lawmakers as they make their arguments for and against her confirmation to the Supreme Court.
Now, Jackson has a lot of experience in this arena. This will be her fourth confirmation hearing on Capitol Hill as she has previously been confirmed to the U.S. Sentencing Commission, the D.C. District Court, and the D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals just last year.
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JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: My nominee for the United States Supreme Court is Judge Ketanji Jackson.
REID (voice-over): President Biden nominated Ketanji Brown Jackson last month to replace retiring justice Stephen Breyer, a mentor for whom she even served as a law clerk.
KETANJI BROWN JACKSON, U.S. SUPREME COURT JUSTICE NOMINEE: Justice Breyer, the members of the Senate will decide if I fill your seat but please know that I could never fill your shoes.
REID (voice-over): Jackson graduated from Harvard, both undergraduate and law school, and became a judge on the Federal District Court in Washington, D.C. beginning in 2013.
If confirmed, she would not only be the first Black woman on the court but also the only current justice with significant experience working in criminal defense.
JACKSON: I had the privilege of serving as a federal public defender.
It's good to see you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why don't we sit down?
JACKSON: Sure. Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you.
JACKSON: Good to see you.
SEN. JOSH HAWLEY (R-MO): Congratulations on your nomination.
JACKSON: Thank you very much.
REID (voice-over): Since her nomination, she has been meeting one-on- one with lawmakers on Capitol Hill.
AMY CONEY BARRETT, THEN-SUPREME COURT JUSTICE NOMINEE: I am not here on a mission to destroy the Affordable Care Act.
REID (voice-over): Recent Supreme Court confirmation hearings have been marked by partisan divides and contentious exchanges.
SEN. AMY KLOBUCHAR (D-MN): So you're saying there's never been a case where you drank so much that you didn't remember what happened the night before or part of what happened?
BRETT KAVANAUGH, THEN-SUPREME COURT JUSTICE NOMINEE: It's -- you're asking about blackout. I don't know. Have you?
REID (voice-over): Republican minority leader Mitch McConnell signaled this time around the GOP's focus will be on Jackson's approach to the law.
SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY): She's clearly a sharp lawyer with an impressive resume, but when it comes to the Supreme Court, a core qualification is judicial philosophy.
REID (voice-over): Republican Josh Hawley, who sits on the Judiciary Committee, has attacked Jackson as not being tough enough on sex offenders. And President Biden's campaign pledge to nominate a Black woman to the
court has drawn criticism from some Republicans. Jackson pushed back when asked by Republican Sen. John Cornyn last year about the role race plays in her work.
JACKSON, THEN-D.C. CIRCUIT COURT OF APPEALS NOMINEE: I don't think that race plays a role in the kind of judge that I have been and that I would be. I've experienced life in perhaps a different way than some of my colleagues because of who I am, and that might be valuable.
REID (voice-over): Even before Jackson became a judge, she tackled inequities in the criminal justice system. As vice-chair on the U.S. Sentencing Commission, Jackson and the six other members decided unanimously to lower federal drug sentences.
JACKSON, VICE-CHAIR, U.S. SENTENCING COMMISSION: I say justice demands this result.
REID (voice-over): The reductions had a wide-ranging impact. They were retroactive, meaning 30,000 federal prisoners had their sentences lowered.
Her own family's experience in the criminal justice system could also provide lines of questioning today.
JACKSON, U.S. SUPREME COURT JUSTICE NOMINEE: You may have read that I have one uncle who got caught up in the drug trade and received a life sentence. That is true. But law enforcement also runs in my family. In addition to my brother, I had two uncles who served decades as police officers; one of whom became the police chief in my hometown of Miami, Florida.
REID (voice-over): President Obama commuted the sentence of her uncle, Thomas Brown, in 2016 after she referred his case to a prominent law firm to handle the clemency petition.
JACKSON, THEN-D.C. CIRCUIT COURT OF APPEALS NOMINEE: The more experiences that can be brought to bear on our complex legal problems the better.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
REID: Last June, Jackson was confirmed by a vote of 53 to 44. This time around, even Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell says he expects her to be confirmed even with few Republican votes. Now, Democrats are hoping to get her confirmation through before they leave for a two-week recess on April eighth -- Brianna.
KEILAR: All right, Paula, a big day -- a big week there on the Hill. Paula Reid for us on Capitol Hill.
[07:55:00]
Hundreds of protesters in central Ukraine taking to the streets after their deputy mayor was detained by Russian forces. Plus, several high- ranking Russian generals killed in Ukraine. We'll discuss the significance of that and why they were so close to the action, to begin with.
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KEILAR: Ukrainian-born actress Mila Kunis and her husband Ashton Kutcher raising more than $30 million for Ukrainian refugees forced from their homes amid Russia's invasion.
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MILA KUNIS, ACTRESS, RAISED OVER $30 MILLION FOR UKRAINIAN REFUGEES: We just want to say that we hit our goal.
ASHTON KUTCHER, ACTOR, RAISED OVER $30 MILLION FOR UKRAINIAN REFUGEES: Over $30 million raised.
KUNIS: Over 65,000 of you donated. We are overwhelmed with gratitude for the support. And while this is far from a solve of the problem our collective effort will provide a softer landing for so many people as they forge ahead into their future of uncertainty.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KEILAR: So the donations here are going to two organizations.
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