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Congress Holding Hearings on Unidentified Aerial Phenomena; President Biden to Visit Buffalo, New York, in Wake of Mass Shooting; Buffalo Mayor Byron Brown Interviewed on Recent Mass Shooting; Former White Supremacist Discusses Possible Signs of Radicalization in Individuals. Aired 8-8:30a ET

Aired May 17, 2022 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:00:00]

KRISTIN FISHER, CNN SPACE AND DEFENSE CORRESPONDENT: They be coming from a foreign adversary, or somewhere else?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What the -- is that thing?

FISHER: Whatever they are, the intelligence report concedes a handful of UAPs appear to demonstrate advanced technology, some without discernible means of propulsion.

LT. RYAN GRAVES, FORMER NAVY PILOT: The speeds that they're exhibiting as well as the flight characteristics, there's no platform or really energy source that I'm aware of that could allow something to stay in the air as long as these objects were.

FISHER: The only thing certain is that they exist.

LUIS ELIZONDO, FORMER PENTAGON OFFICIAL: The big question is, whose is it and where is it from and what are the intentions and what are the full capabilities, and is there something we can learn from it?

(END VIDEO TAPE)

FISHER (on camera): So those are some big questions, right? Don't expect all of them to be answered today. Though, John, there will be a closed classified hearing after today's public hearing, which should get underway in just about one hour.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Closed hearing, that's where the fun stuff is all going to come out.

FISHER: I know.

BERMAN: Kristin Fisher, thank you very much.

And NEW DAY continues right now.

Good morning to viewers here in the United States and all around the world. It is Tuesday, May 17th. I'm John Berman. Brianna is off this morning. Chief White House correspondent Kaitlan Collins here with me in New York. We do have live pictures of the White House this morning. Very shortly

President Biden about to depart for Buffalo to meet with the families of those killed in the racist mass shooting there. Moments ago, officials told us the president will condemn, quote, the "terrorism motivated by a hateful and perverse ideology that tears at the soul of our nation." And he will call on Americans to give hate no safe harbor and to reject the lies of racial animus that radicalize and divide us. He will also call for federal legislation to try to keep guns from the mentally ill.

This morning we are getting new details about the suspected shooter, cell phone video taken by an eyewitness at the moment he was taken into custody by police. New evidence shows he spent several months carefully planning the attack.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COMMISSIONER JOSEPH GRAMAGLIA, BUFFALO POLICE: He was here, we found some things that show that he was here in early March. And then again we know that he was here on Friday basically doing a reconnaissance on the area.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: A manager at the market where, of course, this attack took place told ABC News she saw the gunman at the store on Friday, the day before the attack. He was wearing the same camouflage outfit he wore during the shooting. And she told him to leave that Friday because it looked like he was bothering customers.

We're also learning more about how the suspect wrote online he had considered attacking churches or elementary schools but hesitated because of the security at schools. He was easily able to purchase a firearm, including one he used to kill 10 people, despite the fact that he was given a mental health evaluation less than a year ago, which he claimed online lasted only 15 minutes.

CNN has obtained a photo of the two rifles that he brought with him to the site of the attack. Writing appears all over the weapons, including a racial slur, and the phrase "white lives matter."

BERMAN: Joining us now is the mayor of Buffalo, Byron Brown. Mr. Mayor, thank you so much for being with us this morning. I know you're about to see President Biden, and we also have been told that President Biden is going to call for federal legislation to try to keep guns from the mentally ill. How do you feel about that proposal?

MAYOR BYRON BROWN, (D) BUFFALO, NEW YORK: I like the proposal. I think it's very important. I think it should happen. We see all too often in communities across the country mentally ill people out in the community, they need support, they need services. And people who are not in their right frame of mind should certainly not have access to weapons.

BERMAN: Mayor, I know you're grieving along with your community, and you're also leading the city of Buffalo now through this very difficult period, only made more difficult by the possibility of copycat attacks, people maybe trying to emulate what happened there. How many have you had? And what has happened in Buffalo with that?

BROWN: Law enforcement is on the highest alert here in Buffalo at all levels, federal, state, Buffalo police, Erie County sheriffs, working together very seamlessly. There have been a number of Internet messages about crimes potentially being committed, phone calls made. Already yesterday and the day before two people were arrested. Law enforcement is taking this very seriously, and following up on any messages put out looking like they -- looking like the individual or individuals are trying to copy or spread fear in our community.

[08:05:04]

BERMAN: All these new details coming about -- coming out about the suspected shooter and the plans that he had, including that the supermarket, the Tops supermarket, may not have been his final target, that he had plans for attacks beyond that. You know the community so well. What have you been told about what else he intended to target?

BROWN: His goal, if he got out of the supermarket successfully, was to walk down Jefferson Avenue and try to kill as many people on the street as he possibly could. Fortunately, Aaron Salter, the security officer in the supermarket, a retired Buffalo police officer, engaged the suspect, slowed him down, we believe prevented more loss of life inside the supermarket. Aaron Salter is a hero.

Buffalo police responded also extremely quickly, getting there in about a minute while the active shooter situation was still ongoing, were able to get him to surrender to Buffalo police authorities, and also saving more lives that would definitely have been lost if this individual had been allowed to escape the supermarket and go into the community.

BERMAN: You've known -- you knew Aaron Salter for years, correct?

BROWN: I knew Aaron Salter for many years. I knew his late parents. Family man, community protector, someone who believed in protecting and serving the community, took it very seriously. And even after retirement from a career in the Buffalo Police Department he continued to protect and serve the community as a security officer, someone who was very well respected on the Buffalo Police Department, and well respected in the community.

BERMAN: So, President Biden, again, who you are about to meet with very shortly. We have been told by the White House he's going to talk about fighting the terrorism motivated by a hateful and perverse ideology that tears at the soul of our nation. I want you to talk about this, this hateful and perverse ideology. In the way that it is reaching people, how do you think it is being disseminated across the can country?

BROWN: Well, it's certainly being disseminated through social media. Social media is a way that this hateful ideology, racist ideology, other forms of hate are being spread across the country, ways that Americans are being radicalized in ways of hate, and hate speech, and hateful theories, false information, false theories. The president is absolutely in the right direction, focusing on reining that in, on condemning it and taking steps to prevent it from continuing. So much hate has been proliferated on social media, but also on the airwaves of American television. And those things have to be looked at very seriously, and they have to be reined in.

BERMAN: Mayor Byron Brown of Buffalo, we appreciate the work that you're doing. Thank you so much for being with us this morning.

BROWN: Thank you very much.

COLLINS: Joining us now is Shannon Martinez, a former white supremacist who is now a fellow for the Polarization and Extremism Research Innovation Lab, also known as PERIL, at American University. Shannon, thank you for joining us this morning, because this has really put something like this at the forefront of the national conversation. When you look at what this suspect wrote online, what he said, these online hateful screeds that he had, and I wonder what stands out to you given your past experience.

SHANNON MARTINEZ, FELLOW, PERIL AT AMERICAN UNIVERSITY: Thank you so much for having me. Part of the work that I have been doing over the last 25 years is mentoring people as they leave these ideologies and networks and worldviews. And one of the things that completely stands out to me is that this is not just like an isolated case, right, that we heard a lot like he radicalized online alone or whatever. But we're talking about transnational networks that have immense influence, that stoke the likelihood of accelerating to violence and the utilization of violence to bring about violence, white supremacists, or anti- Semitic attacks, to basically bring down western civilization.

And that this fits in the mold with the Christchurch shooters, with El Paso shooters, with the Norwegian attacks that have happened, that this is an ongoing pattern that we hitherto have really been completely ineffective in combatting in any meaningful way.

[08:10:10]

BERMAN: One of the things that infuriates people about this case, one of the many things, is that there was an interaction point, a touchpoint between law enforcement and this suspect. It happened more than a year ago when he wrote something about a murder-suicide. And then did speak with people in an evaluation. He wrote about that moment. He said he was forced to wait for hours, for like 15 to 20 hours, but then the actual interview itself only lasted 15 minutes. This is from "The New York Times," how they wrote about it. "The suspect's newly discovered online posts also cast doubt on the thoroughness of his mental health evaluations. "I had to spend 20 hours in the E.R.," he says, "waiting for somebody to give me 15 minutes to talk to me," he wrote. "This proved to me that the U.S. healthcare system is a joke."

Obviously 15 minutes not enough to discern that something like this might happen. So how do you find out something like this might happen? How do you do a better job in that touchpoint discovering something like this?

MARTINEZ: If I'm not mistaken, there were many touchpoints, that there were concerned peers, there were concerned teachers, that there had been multiple interaction points along the way.

I think one of the things that we can do better is we all know what people who aren't thriving look like. And we need to include specific questions about racism, anti-Semitic beliefs, and include questions about -- direct questions about their attitudes about the legitimization of utilizing violence as a tool, that that is one thing that can happen.

Obviously, spending more time than 15 minutes assessing someone, if we take him at his word, which, maybe we should and maybe we shouldn't, if we take him at his word, that that was only a 15-minute interaction, that, again, that that is very highly problematic. If you have someone in your life or that you are assessing or whatever you, and you feel like they are in fact radicalizing to hate, violence, or dehumanization, that there are people like me out there that you can reach out to, to help you guide them through this process, help you understand what you're seeing, what questions that you could be asking.

COLLINS: I guess that raises the question of, what are the signs of radicalization then? You've had this past experience, what does it look like? What should people be paying attention for? Because oftentimes when you see something like this, people who went to class with them or knew them or they worked for them, they say, oh, he was quiet, he kind of hung out by himself. But is there anything else that people should be looking for, given everything he had written online that somehow evaded people?

MARTINEZ: I have found that most people really mischaracterize the people that they think are at highest risk, that they think that they're poorly educated, they're not very intelligent, that they're -- that they are really identifiably socially isolated, they come from broken families. And that's really not true.

Unfortunately, the signs of radicalization are the same signs of all of the ways that we as adults and community members, we know the people who aren't thriving. It's very easy to see people who aren't thriving. That is the highest risk. Those are the people that are at highest risk, people who feel alienated and alone, that they don't really feel like they belong anywhere, that they're struggling with a lack of agency in their life. Oftentimes they're incredibly intelligent and really want to know why things are the way that they are, they crave significance, feel like they don't have everything that they should have, which looks like a whole lot like other stuff.

By the time you know and see signs for sure that somebody is putting 1488 on things, or whatever, that they're already so incredibly far down the pipeline and on the trajectory, it's going to be incredibly hard to pull them out at that point, because they are firmly entrenched in that echo chamber. And it will be -- it's much more difficult to help someone offramp once they are already that far in. So for me, it's looking a few steps ahead of that, and, OK, what are their attitudes about violence? Are they increasing their speech about utilizing violence, about justifying the use of violence, about tearing down civilization?

BERMAN: Shannon Martinez, thank you so much for helping us understand this, even as our attention and our focus is on the victims, the people who suffered through this and their families, those are the people the president will be meeting with today in Buffalo. Shannon, thank you so much.

MARTINEZ: Thank you.

BERMAN: So as we speak, voters in Pennsylvania and North Carolina at the polls for some of the most consequential primary races of the entire election season.

COLLINS: We're also paying close attention in Ukraine after overnight there were heavy casualties outside of Kyiv, after Russian missiles struck far from the front lines. CNN is on the ground and we'll give you a live report next.

[08:15:05]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BERMAN: In several key states across the country, voters are lining up for the last day of primary voting.

The first polls close at 6:00 tonight, and the spotlight is on Pennsylvania, because in the Republican Senate primary there, TV personality Mehmet Oz has been endorsed by former President Trump, he's facing off against former hedge fund CEO David McCormick and Kathy Barnette, who surged late in the race.

On the Democratic side, on the Democratic side, Lieutenant Governor John Fetterman is hoping to hold off Congressman Conor Lamb and State Representative Malcolm Kenyatta. Fetterman is also recovering from a minor stroke and is going to miss his election results tonight.

BERMAN: In the Republican race for governor there, State Senator Doug Mastriano, who was endorsed by President Trump very late in the game and also endorsed the big lie, is battling former Congressman Lou Barletta, as well as former U.S. Attorney Bill McSwain and businessman Dave White.

The winner will face Pennsylvania Attorney General Josh Shapiro, running unopposed for the Democratic nomination.

And Pennsylvania, not the only place we're watching. In North Carolina, several Republicans competing to win the seat held by Senator Richard Burr now.

[08:20:03]

Congressman Ted Budd received Trump's endorsement. He's facing off against former Governor Pat McCrory, former Congressman Matt Walker and Army veteran Marjorie Eastman. Another big race people are watching in North Carolina, voters will decide if Congressman Madison Cawthorn should get to keep his seat after a first term filled with a lot of controversies to say the least. His opponents are former district Republican chair Michelle Woodhouse and State Senator Chuck Edwards.

Joining us now to discuss the Pennsylvania races is Jonathan Tamari, national political reporter for "The Philadelphia Inquirer."

And, Jonathan, this has been such a chaotic race, period, but also in the last several days. So I wonder the best way to do reporting on these races is to be there on the ground. I wonder what you've seen and what you're going to be looking for tonight besides who wins.

JONATHAN TAMARI, NATIONAL POLITICAL REPORTER: So, it has been absolutely chaotic. And nobody has really been able to kind of break ahead on this in the Republican race, that is the one that has most intrigue that we'll be watching tonight, the Republican Senate primary.

And you see a lot of voters who, you know, you had two extremely wealthy candidates, Mehmet Oz and David McCormick, who spent a lot of money beating each other up on television and what you hear from some voters that turned them off to kind of both of them.

I was with McCormick at a diner in Pennsylvania this weekend and he was delivering his message and the voter he spoke with said, you know, if you had started with that instead of all the stuff I saw on TV, I probably would be with you from the start. She was considering him, but she was also considering Kathy Barnette, who has kind of emerged as the alternative to people who were -- who weren't sold on Oz, weren't sold on McCormick, were tired of the ads and even though she's on a shoestring budget, she has really rocketed to the front here.

And we're waiting to see if that surge continues or if she hit her ceiling in one of the two big spending Republicans ends up winning the race.

BERMAN: It is so okay chaotic, we don't know how it is going to go, we rarely have known less about an outcome than about this race. But I wonder if you put yourself in a time machine to tomorrow morning, tell us what lessons different possible scenarios would leave us with. What lesson would we get from an Oz victory? What lesson might we get from a Barnette victory?

TAMARI: I think that the results will tell us a lot about Donald Trump's influence or not influence over the state of the Republican Party and over Republican primary voters. He endorsed Oz in the middle of a really close race, and he not only endorsed him, did a rally for him, put another statement out, called in to his closing event last night, did a robocall for him yesterday.

So if Oz wins in a really close race, I think you could say that Trump had at least some influence that got him over the finish line. If Barnette wins on the other hand, you would say that it is a victory for Trumpism, but not Trump because she echoes a lot of his political style, denying the election, kind of really sharp edged attacks, but he obviously did not endorse her and in fact urged people to vote for Oz and not her.

Should McCormick win, you'll see some questions about Trump's influence over the party, because McCormick sought Trump's endorsement, calls himself an America first Republican, but Trump slammed him during the rally. He really urged voters not to support McCormick.

So, if McCormick is still able to prevail, it shows that maybe Trump's influence is not quite what we have seen in some other states.

COLLINS: Yeah, and it is not just the Republican Senate primary that has gotten so much attention, of course, but also the Democratic Senate primary is one to watch as well. What are you reading into that with Fetterman going up against Conor Lamb and Malcolm Kenyatta?

TAMARI: That race has not been as intense as a lot of us expected. There was an expectation you would see Fetterman as this populist unusual figure running against lamb who is more of a conventional Democrat, kind of in the Joe Biden mold, the Bob Casey mold, the other sitting senator from Pennsylvania.

Fetterman held a really strong lead. I think if he does win, by as much as the polling shows, it will show us two things. One, this kind of power of a unique personality, and a unique image, which Fetterman certainly has, which is hard to replicate by other people. But also that you'll start to see a movement of Democrats toward this more populous style of messaging and populous approach in swing states like Pennsylvania, where as they often have been branded as the party of the elite, Fetterman is trying to change that in a way and he says going to win back voters in a lot of areas that have abandoned Democrats in recent years.

So, I think that would be a shift, maybe one that is unique to Fetterman, but certainly a shift for Democrats from what we have seen in recent years when they have nominated people like Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden, Katie McGinty for Senate in Pennsylvania in 2016.

COLLINS: Yeah. He seems to be trying to change it one pair of cargo shorts at a time.

Jonathan, we know you'll be covering it all for "The Philadelphia Inquirer". Thank you so much for joining us this morning.

[08:25:02]

TAMARI: Thanks for having me.

COLLINS: Meanwhile in Ukraine, Mariupol is on the brink and why Ukraine is giving up the fight there and ceding ground to Russia.

BERMAN: And just moments ago, President Biden departed the White House heading to Buffalo where he will meet with the victims of the hate-fueled massacre at the supermarket.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BERMAN: A major development in Ukraine overnight. Ukraine appears to have given up fighting at the steel plant in Mariupol that has been their last line of defense there. Ukrainian authorities announced an end to what they're calling the combat operation in the besieged city. Ukrainian troops have held out for weeks beneath the Azovstal steel under constant Russian bombardment.

Of course, Mariupol here on the Sea of Azov right here, you can see the Russians have been trying to make gains all across the south here, including now with heavy bombardment in the port city of Odesa.

CNN's Sara Sidner is in and joins us live -- Sara.

[08:30:00]