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Archbishop Bans Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D-CA) From Communion Over Abortion Rights; Ginni Thomas Pressed Arizona Lawmakers to Overturn Biden's Win; Southern Baptist Leaders Accused of Covering Up Sex Abuse. Aired 7:30-8a ET

Aired May 23, 2022 - 07:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[07:30:03]

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Congressman, I do want to ask you, you've been very supportive of the effort to get Ukraine all the help that they want and can use in their battle against Russia. And by some accounts, the Ukrainian efforts have gone very well, they forced the Russians from Kyiv, it looks like they're forcing them from Kharkiv now.

But if you look at the map it is clear the Russians do occupy a fair amount of territory, particularly in Eastern Ukraine at this point. What do you think it would take? Is it realistic at this point to expect that the Ukrainians will be able to get the Russians out?

REP. MICHAEL MCCAUL (R-TX): Well, you know, General McKenzie, the CentComm commander told me the will of the Ukrainian people is far stronger than the will of the Russian soldier. The morale is terrible in the Russian army and, you know, we were told this would all be over, John, in four days, right? And that's what Putin thought as well. And you know what, that didn't happen because the Ukrainian people fight.

We were giving them, right as I speak, the most high tech weaponry that we have to fight this asymmetric war. Really, Russia fights a World War II-style with large tanks. We're giving them equipment like these lethal drones with a payload on them that can blow up tanks and armored personnel that they can't stop. And so the more we can give to them -- and that's what Zelenskyy asked for once again. He said, I wish I had had these weapons sooner, and I called for these to be put in country before the invasion, not after, but now we are where we are. And we need to give them everything we can to help them win.

Their goal, though, is to take Donbas, Mariupol, Crimea, all the way to Odessa and choke off the Black Sea from Ukraine and starve the Ukrainian people just like -- not unlike what Stalin did many decades ago to the Ukrainian people.

BERMAN: Congressman Michael McCaul from Davos, thank you so much for being with us this morning. I appreciate it, sir.

MCCAUL: Thank you, John.

BERMAN: House Speaker Nancy Pelosi barred from receiving communion over her abortion stance.

KEILAR: And a new report alleging decades-long mishandling of sexual abuse allegations by the Southern Baptist Convention.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:35:00]

KEILAR: House Speaker Nancy Pelosi will no longer be able to receive communion in her hometown of San Francisco over her staunch support of abortion rights. In a letter addressed to Pelosi, the Catholic archbishop of San Francisco, Salvatore Cordileone, said he had, quote, no choice but to block her from communion when she did not respond to his request to explain her stance to him.

He writes, you are not to present yourself for Holy Communion until such time as you publicly repudiate your advocacy for the legitimacy of abortion and confess and receive absolution of this grave sin in the sacrament of penance.

Joining us now to discuss is the host of the Catholic channel on SiriusXM, Katie McGrady. Katie, I'm so glad to have you on to talk about this today. I wonder what you think about this, especially considering that Catholic congregants themselves are very split on the issue of legalized abortion.

KATIE MCGRADY, HOST, THE CATHOLIC CHANNEL ON SIRIUSXM: Yes, it is definitely -- I will call it what I think a lot of Catholics kind of think at this moment. It's a little awkward to see some of this play out, even if the archbishop is certainly justified in his perspective and in what he has done.

You know, as usual, there is a lot of nuance to these things and context. I think the archbishop has every right and, in fact, it's his duty to guide and to lead Catholics in the living of their faith. In the private life that we live and, of course, in the public perspective, Nancy Pelosi is a very public person, she is the speaker of the House and a very public Catholic. She has said her devout Catholic faith guides and leads, that she is a mom. She gave a speech at Georgetown a few years ago where she justified her perspective first of abortion with her Catholic understanding of free will.

So, in context of what she has said about her faith and then the perspective she has taken politically on abortion, the archbishop's hands were kind of tied. He had to say something. And as he said has publicly, his conscience has been formed to the point where he felt it was necessary to pastorally reach out to her, this is not a punishment, this is a pastoral reach to say, until these things have happened, I don't know that you are in a state of grace to receive communion.

BERMAN: Doesn't this put the archbishop though at odds, at least thematically, with Pope Francis, who has said, communion is not the reward of saints but the bread of sinners, and the pope has called Joe Biden, who has largely the same position on abortion as Nancy Pelosi, a good Catholic? MCGRADY: So, that's a great question. You know, Pope Francis has said that he has never denied anyone communion. He also has said that abortion is the gravest evil of our time and that this is not an issue we can mince words on. The communion that we believe, the Eucharist, the source and summit of our faith, the most important thing as Catholics that we can receive, it's not a prize, but the confessional is also not a courtroom. And Archbishop Cordileone has invited Nancy Pelosi to come to confession and to talk to him so that he can understand where she's coming from, so that she can understand where he is coming from.

This was actually an invitation I think to dialogue, not just a condemnation of perspective and belief. It is certainly an opportunity and a chance for continued discussion on why do you believe what you believe, how can we reconcile that with the very clear cut Catholic teaching but also a human issue. It's not just a religious thing to believe that abortion is a grave evil.

I do think that Archbishop Cordileone has gone maybe one step further than we would have necessarily seen other bishops or the pope do, but we know that Pope Francis has been very clear about the grave evil of abortion.

[07:40:03]

And I do wonder if there was a politician in Rome who was actively saying, I'm going to codify abortion into federal law, the pope would probably have to step in in a different way. That's, of course, a situational hypothetical, but I don't think that their perspectives are at odds, no.

KEILAR: Is he an outlier in a way as a messenger? I mean, when you think of this archbishop, this is someone who, despite the pope saying that getting a vaccine, a COVID vaccine is an act of love, this is an archbishop who has not gotten the COVID vaccine despite the fact that a huge percentage of Catholics have gone ahead and gotten the vaccine. I mean, what does that say to you about maybe the kind of messenger he is and the kind of arguments that he weighs into?

MCGRADY: You know, I think that truth is truth regardless of who is saying it. And, sure, there have been some perspectives that Archbishop Cordileone we would not agree on, the COVID vaccine being one of them, but I think a lot of Catholics do agree, and are from the perspective of abortion is a whole different thing. It's the taking of an innocent life.

Regardless of what he has said on other issues or other perspectives that he has, there have been a lot of bishops that have spoken up in the past weekend just over the 72 hours since this happened that have expressed their support for what he has said, that have also said they will take a look at perhaps some of the legislatures that they are under their particular purview and whether or not those politicians have said things as extreme.

I think he is an outlier in the sense that he's very outspoken, and a lot of times in our church, our bishops are not as outspoken as I think some Catholics would like them to be. But I don't think he is alone in this opinion and in this understanding of, again, a pastoral reach out. Nancy Pelosi presenting herself for communion is a cause for scandal at this moment because of what she has said and the way she has tried to codify abortion into federal law.

KEILAR: It's always a fascinating conversation with you, Katie. I will note, according to Pelosi's office, she did receive the sacrament, I believe, this weekend in Georgetown at the Holy Trinity Catholic Church there.

MCGRADY: I didn't know that.

KEILAR: So, it seems like perhaps this is a rule in a way that will be enforced in some places but not others. Obviously not all Catholics and not all Catholic leaders in agreement on this.

Katie McGrady, always great to have you, thank you so much.

MCGRADY: Thank you, I appreciate it.

KEILAR: So, how far did the wife of Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas' go to push baseless election fraud claims? We have new reporting this morning.

BERMAN: And later, the primary proxy war in Georgia. Mike Pence set to rally for Governor Brian Kemp, one of Trump's top Republican targets this midterm election season. CNN is live in Georgia ahead of the primary.

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[07:45:00]

BERMAN: New reporting on just how far Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas' wife, right-wing activist Ginni Thomas, went to get officials to overturn the 2020 presidential election results. The Washington Post reports that Thomas reached out directly to a few Arizona state lawmakers, writing, this responsibility is yours and yours alone. Please take action to ensure that a clean slate of electors is chosen from our state.

Joining us now, the reporter who broke this story, Washington Post Investigative Reporter Emma Brown. Emma, thank you so much for being with us.

To the question of how involved did Ginni Thomas get, your reporting seems to be pretty involved.

EMMA BROWN, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER, THE WASHINGTON POST: Well, yes. What these emails show is that she wasn't just, you know, saying what she thought publicly, but she was part of a strategy, you know, she was taking an active role in this strategy to pressure state legislatures in the key swing states to basically disregard the popular vote, set that aside and choose their own electors, choose Trump electors to help him stay in office.

KEILAR: So, how did these lawmakers respond, Emma, to what she was imploring?

BROWN: So, you know, they both said -- one of them is the speaker of the Arizona House, the other is the wife of a Supreme Court justice in the State of Arizona who is friendly with the Thomases. They both said they responded to her emails the way they responded to the tens of thousands, if not, hundreds of thousands of other emails they got during this period.

They also took very different tax, though. The speaker of the House, Rusty Bowers, he said, look, what Ginni Thomas was asking me to do at the time was not legal, like it didn't work under state of Arizona laws. Shawnna Bolick, the other legislator, signed on to a letter calling on Congress to either replace Biden's electoral votes with Trump votes or just put it all on ice until a full forensic audit could be completed.

BERMAN: Yes, she was asking for Arizona Republicans to pick their own electors, not the electors who were chosen by the people of Arizona.

And you spoke to a bunch of legal analysts for this piece, Emma, on the issue of where the line is between free speech for Ginni Thomas or any American and action that might cross a line legally. What did they say?

BROWN: Right. Well, you know, Ginni Thomas has not responded to our story but her allies and friends and supporters have taken to social media to say, look, she's a citizen, she has First Amendment free speech rights. She is allowed to say what she thinks. But legal experts I spoke to said she crossed the line because she was not just saying what she thought, she was really becoming an active part of this effort to overturn the election.

And, of course, the effort to overturn the election has come before the Supreme Court in several instances.

[07:50:02]

Cases related to that are sure to come to the court in the future. And so what they've said is, look, she has a stake in those cases potentially, and so Clarence Thomas should recuse. Because when a justice or a judge has a spouse who has an interest in a case before them, that justice or judge is supposed to recuse.

BERMAN: And he has not, at least as of now, nor has he given any indication that he will. Emma Brown, thank you for joining us and sharing your reporting this morning.

BROWN: Thanks for having me.

BERMAN: All right. We're going to have more on President Biden's forceful remarks overnight about backing Taiwan militarily from possible Chinese aggression. CNN is live in Tokyo.

KEILAR: And what Dave Chappelle's attacker says triggered him, leading him to tackle the comedian on stage.

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BERMAN: An explosive new report from the independent panel finds that Southern Baptist Convention leaders mishandled allegations of sexual abuse, intimidated victims and resisted any attempts at reform.

[07:55:09]

Early Start Anchor and Attorney at Law Laura Jarrett joins me with this. This report went way further than a lot of people were expecting.

LAURA JARRETT, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, John. The story in the report starts like this, resistance, stonewalling and even outright hostility. It's a disturbing pattern over a 20-year period, women and children came forward with their claims of abuse against male pastors or other church officials only to be shut down repeatedly. It's all outlined in this new report running nearly 300 pages about the Southern Baptist Convention, the largest protestant denomination here in the United States.

Among the more troubling findings in the reports, official church staff actually maintained a detailed list of the ministers that had been accused of abuse for more than a decade but no one took any action to make sure those people were no longer in positions of power. And investigators have now found at least nine people remain connected to active ministry in the church.

Also, victims and their advocates who did come forward were cast aside, as internal emails show church leadership called them, quote, opportunistic. Part of the reason for all this resistance, concern over legal liability. Executives not only fought initiatives that might actually help investigate all these claims, but when it came to another report on abuse within this same group, leaders suggested changes, like removing the word, crisis.

Now, in a statement, the convention said in part, quote, we are grieved by the findings of this investigation. We are committed to doing all that we can to prevent future instances of sexual abuse in churches, to improve our response and our care and to remove reporting roadblocks.

John, the report also outlines a bunch of recommendations you might expect, things like background checks, improves reporting, but, interestingly, also suggests limiting the use of nondisclosure agreements, something you've seen a lot in cases of sexual abuse used to shut down victims who want to tell their story but, perhaps, because of a settlement can't.

BERMAN: Yes. Southern Baptist leaders, even ones who welcomed this report, and we're expecting it, again, said it went further and was even worse than they thought it would be. Laura Jarrett, thank you so much.

New Day continues right now.

KEILAR: Hello, I'm Brianna Keilar with John Berman on this New Day. President Biden throwing military support behind Taiwan and comments that caught his own administration off-guard.

And the divide between former President Trump and former Vice President Mike Pence deepening ahead of a high-stakes primary in Georgia.

BERMAN: Exclusive CNN reporting on why one Russian officer says he risked it all to quit Putin's war.

And a dramatic race to rescue in California when a man is found clinging to the edge of a steep cliff. A crew member, as part of that incredible save, joins New Day.

Good morning to our viewers in the United States and all around the world. It is Monday, May 23rd.

And this morning, President Biden is making unexpected headlines in Tokyo, in a way, it's even breaking news for his top aides. The president was asked if the United States would, quote, get involved militarily if China were to invade Taiwan. This is the exchange.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REPORTER: You didn't want to get involved in the Ukraine conflict militarily for obvious reasons. Are you willing to get involved militarily to defend Taiwan if it comes to that?

JOE BIDEN, U.S. PRESIDENT: Yes.

REPORTER: You are?

BIDEN: That's the commitment we made. We agree with the One China Policy. We signed onto it and all the attendant agreements made from there. But the idea that it can be taken by force, just taken by force, is just not appropriate. It will dislocate the entire region and be another action similar to what happened in Ukraine.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: The United States already provides defensive weapons to Taiwan and has previously maintained what is called strategic ambiguity about intervening militarily in the event of a Chinese attack. The comments this morning seemed a little less ambiguous, though, as to whether they were strategic, CNN has learned the president's comments caught his top aides by surprise. They're already issuing some clarifications this morning. And Beijing issued a response a short time ago as well.

BERMAN: All right. CNN Chief White House Correspondent Kaitlan Collins traveling with the president, she joins us live from Tokyo with the president's statement, the White House response, and where we are exactly now, Kaitlan.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, it's quite a statement from President Biden. It came right at the end of that press conference he was holding with the Japanese prime minister. And he basically bluntly said that the U.S. is not going to stand by if China were to take action to try to invade Taiwan.

[08:00:06]