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President Biden Says U.S. Will Intervene Militarily If China Invades Taiwan; Pennsylvania Republican Senate Primary Race Still Too Close to Call; Georgia Governor Brian Kemp Endorsed by Former Vice President Mike Pence While Primary Republican Challenger David Perdue Endorsed by Former President Trump. Aired 8-8:30a ET

Aired May 23, 2022 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:00:00]

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: And he basically bluntly said that the U.S. is not going to stand by if China were to take action to try to invade Taiwan. And that is notable because the White House had been clear that that is not something they wanted to see happen. They have urged China against using force in Taiwan. But they have not explicitly laid out what would happen should China do so.

And I think the context here is so important because, of course, this comes amid Russia's invasion of Ukraine and the questions about what implications there are for that on a global level, what that looks like and what that means. And I think that's what President Biden was speaking to when he was talking about this.

And I think the distinction here is important, because we've seen time and time again since Russia invaded Ukraine the president say the U.S. will not put boots on the ground in Ukraine. He doesn't want it to become this direct fight between the United States and Russia. And where he is drawing a difference here when it comes to Taiwan is the president is saying he would respond militarily should China try to invade Taiwan.

That is incredibly notable because, as Brianna was saying, it has been this longstanding practice of strategic ambiguity. Basically, that means that the White House will say, China, don't do this, we don't want to see you do this, but they wouldn't exactly spell out what would happen if China were to do that. And the president there, of course, said that today, saying the U.S. military would be involved in this.

And so, yes, afterward, you did see some of the president's aides try to walk this back, saying he wasn't articulating any kind of change in his policy. But it is a policy difference for him to come out and say explicitly that they would do that. Not just that they would provide arms to Ukraine -- or arms to Taiwan and weapons to Taiwan like they are doing with Ukraine, but saying that they would go one step further, John. And of course, it's a statement the president has come close to making before. He articulated it very bluntly with no clarifications, no caveats there. And so I think, yes, you can have aides walk it back time and time

again, as you've seen with President Biden's statements on Taiwan. But at the end of the day, the president is making very clear what his position on this is, John.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: It's interest. It's being welcomed by China hawks, including Republican Mike McCaul, the ranking member on the Foreign Affairs Committee who joined us a short time ago. He said personally he approves that message, and he thinks it does send China a much needed message. Kaitlan Collins live for us in Tokyo this morning. Kaitlan, thank you.

BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN ANCHOR: And for more now on President Biden's comments on Taiwan, let's bring in CNN anchor and chief national security correspondent, Jim Sciutto. I wonder what you think just about what was happening there, if this was just the president's propensity for trying to answer a question very directly, or what?

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, listen, the administration, his spokespeople are trying to hide behind the Taiwan Relations Act, which set -- it's governed U.S. policy with Taiwan back to 1979, saying that the U.S. will give Taiwan the means to defend itself. Not that the U.S. will intervene militarily, that is send U.S. aircraft carriers, right, in the strait to defend Taiwan, but to give it weapons so that Taiwan can defend itself to maintain the status quo, which is an independent, though not officially declared independent Taiwan and China, but under a one China policy.

His answer to the question didn't say that. His answer to the question in the context of Ukraine said, you did not intervene military in Ukraine, put U.S. boots on the ground. Would you intervene militarily in Taiwan? And his answer very definitively was yes. And that's, one, it's relating it to Ukraine, which would establish a difference to how the U.S. responded in Ukraine versus Taiwan, and also he answered the question as yes, right.

Now, is this Biden wanting to be deliberately not clear, in other words, to leave some ambiguity so that China doesn't know for sure which the U.S. would do? Which, by the way, is what some had called for for Ukraine. They criticized Biden for being so definitively -- to dismiss the possibility of U.S. military intervention there. That said, as Kaitlan said, he has a history of making statements here that seem to be ahead of what the policy is.

KEILAR: Maybe ambiguity still, but it seems like that point of gravity, right, has sort of shifted in a way. Even recently this language on the State Department website changed, was erased, and the Chinese government really took note of that. So, you can't ignore that there's definitely been a shift in the wake of Ukraine and a message that the U.S. is trying to send.

SCIUTTO: There may be a shift, right? And by the way, you hear this in less certain terms about how -- what kind of message the U.S. and the west have to send to China as per Taiwan that was not clear prior to Ukraine, right? Russia might have judged that we could take Ukraine without direct -- and by the way, they were right about the U.S. not getting involved militarily. They were not right about how far the U.S. and NATO was willing to support Ukraine.

So, there are some who say both Democrats and Republicans, we have to be as a country more definitive with Taiwan. But to be clear, that is not the stated policy. The Taiwan Relations Act is a -- it has got very clear language in there about what the U.S. will do and not do. What hasn't changed is the official U.S. position.

[08:05:02]

The president has said more than once, the U.S. may very well get involved. His officials have tried to walk that back more than once, but is there a change here? He has got to be pressed more on this to be clear, to say Mr. President, who's right, you or your spokespeople?

KEILAR: I was going to say, if he's trying to make Xi Jinping think twice, he has, maybe three times, maybe four times even. Jim Sciutto, always great to have you on.

BERMAN: So it is the eve of the high-stakes primary race in Georgia, even as the Senate primary race in Pennsylvania remains deadlocked this morning. In Georgia former Vice President Mike Pence will rally for incumbent Governor Brian Kemp as he goes head-to-head with Trump- backed former U.S. Senator David Perdue. And in commonwealth of Pennsylvania the race between Mehmet Oz and Dave McCormick for the GOP Senate nomination is still neck and neck. Oz still leads by about 1,000 votes there. We have live coverage of both races this morning.

Let's go first to Eva McKend who is live in Atlanta with the Georgia race, which has become something of a Pence-Trump proxy war, Eva.

EVA MCKEND, CNN NATIONAL POLITICS REPORTER: Yes, John, this will be Kemp's most high-profile surrogate to date. Former Vice President Mike Pence throwing his support behind Kemp is really indicative of the sentiment of the Republican establishment, and also many conservative voters. What we've seen Kemp do over the weekend here is shift his message to really focus on the general election, attacking Democratic candidate Stacey Abrams. We spoke to Abrams exclusively this weekend. She is not facing a contested primary.

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

GOV. BRIAN KEMP, (R) GEORGIA: I think Stacey Abrams is a great unifier. I believe every Republican in Georgia will be unified after Tuesday.

STACEY ABRAMS, (D) GEORGIA GUBERNATORIAL CANDIDATE: Unfortunately, in this state, the governor is happy to tout the successes for the few who flourish, but he's done very little for thousands of Georgians.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MCKEND: So, Trump has called Kemp the worst governor in America for not doing more to essentially cheat on his behalf in the 2020 election. And it seems like the way in which David Perdue, the Trump- endorsed candidate, the former senator is struggling to make gains here in Georgia, it seems as though conservative voters are weary of hearing about this election lie and just have other issues on their mind. John?

BERMAN: Eva McKend for us in Atlanta. Eva, terrific seeing you, thank you.

KEILAR: And now to the tied race in Pennsylvania. CNN's Melanie Zanona with us now from Harrisburg with a look here. So close, headed for a recount, it looks like, Melanie.

MELANIE ZANONA, CNN CAPITOL HILL REPORTER: Yes, absolutely. This race is neck and neck. David McCormick is trailing by just about 1,000 votes here in Pennsylvania. The ballots will continue to be counted today. But there's only a few number of votes left to be counted, fewer than 10,000, most of which are absentee. But it looks like McCormick's path to victory is toppling.

And it looks like in here in Pennsylvania, it's going to head to a recount, which will be automatically triggered if the race is within half a percentage point. Now, it appears that both campaigns are really gearing up for that potential scenario. On McCormick's side, he is fighting to have all undated ballots counted in the race. He is someone who has performed better with mail-in ballots. Oz, however, is fiercely fighting against that. He is backed, of course, by Donald Trump. So we have a little early preview here of the fight to come in Pennsylvania.

Now, on the Democratic side, there's also been a lot of uncertainty. The Lieutenant Governor John Fetterman easily won the Democratic nomination, but he suffered a stroke just days before election night. However, he was released from the hospital yesterday. And he put out a statement saying he's feeling good. He's going to take some time to rest and recover. But he hopes to get back to the campaign trail soon, Brianna.

KEILAR: All right, Melanie, so much to watch there in Pennsylvania, thank you.

BERMAN: Joining us now is CNN political commentator Michael Smerconish. Thanks so much for being with us, Michael. Where do you think things stand right now in your commonwealth?

MICHAEL SMERCONISH, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: They seemed to have just stalled. You just heard that the margin is somewhere between 1,000 and 1,100 votes that give an advantage to Dr. Oz. What's clear is that Dave McCormick has run stronger among the absentee ballots, but there aren't that many absentee ballots. Most Republicans in this state, as was the case in the 2020 cycle, they voted in person. So, it appeared as if it were a replay, that they were going to pass like ships in the night as was the case with Biden and Trump in 2020. But now it's just sort of locked in position. And whether the deficit can be made up by McCormick is anyone's guess. The Associated Press, among others, saying there's no way you can pick a winner, call a winner until a recount is over.

BERMAN: And the recount absolutely does seem inevitable at this point.

[08:10:00]

All right, look at Georgia, look south, Michael, right now. You have Mike Pence backing the sitting governor, Brian Kemp. Donald Trump backing his challenger, David Perdue here. There seems to be a lot at stake here at least thematically as we look at this from a nationwide perspective.

SMERCONISH: Well, Governor Kemp doesn't need former Vice President Mike Pence to come in today. Unless these polls are way the hell off, he doesn't need this 11th hour appearance. I think it's a layup for Vice President Pence to go in and lay down a marker, lay down a marker that he is not with Donald Trump, the former president, when it comes to this particular battle. Why, for example, didn't Pence come into Pennsylvania and lay claim to either Oz or to McCormick? Maybe that was a little hot to handle. This one there's seemingly a clear victor. And so Pence gets to get an IOU out there with someone who will be, arguably, the governor who will run and win reelection if he gets past Stacey Abrams.

KEILAR: Michael, what do you think about this Donald Trump social media post where he's essentially endorsing this idea of someone that a civil war may be looming, but also that a civil war may be the solution to fixing problems in the U.S.? It's kind of confusing because there's a number of posts here, but those are basically the themes that he appears to be supporting. What do you think?

SMERCONISH: So, it was hard for me to follow, Brianna. I took a look at all the things he said on Truth Social this weekend, and the first reaction that I had is, I'm not sure that he would have been able to maintain his Twitter status if he had been let back and said those things via Twitter, because there seems to be a lot of inconsistency, and the embrace of civil war is troublesome, to say the least.

I thought that his behavior was kind of hard to follow and maybe a little bit frustrated, he is, because of the way some of these primaries have gone, and the way, for example, Alabama might turn out with Mo Brooks looking resurgent, despite Trump having pulled back his endorsement.

KEILAR: Troublesome, I mean, do you think it inspires anyone, for instance?

SMERCONISH: Well, I hope not. I'm cognizant of what transpired in Buffalo just a week ago. And the three of us having this conversation, John and Brianna and myself, I think are mindful of the fact that we have a privilege in the platforms that are afforded to us. Whether that's radio, whether that's television, whether that's through social media. I always operate on the premise that there's someone listening or watching who might not be playing with a full deck, and I don't want to say something that might be misunderstood. I wish others would approach their privilege the same way. That's my answer.

KEILAR: Yes. I think that's -- I think that's very smart. Going back to Georgia, I want to ask you about something Stacey Abrams said. She's getting a lot of blowback from Republicans. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STACEY ABRAMS, (D) GEORGIA GUBERNATORIAL CANDIDATE: I'm tired of hearing how we're the best state in the country to do business when we're the worst place to live.

(APPLAUSE)

ABRAMS: Let me contextualize. When you're number 48 for mental health, when you're number one for maternal mortality, when you have an incarceration rates that is on the rise and crime and wages that are on the decline, then you are not the number one place to live.

(APPLAUSE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: Do you think the criticism of her is fair?

SMERCONISH: Brianna, you have to help me because I couldn't understand what she was saying. Can you tell me what she said?

KEILAR: She's saying that it's not -- Georgia is not the best place to live. And Republicans are pointing out that she lives there, right, and she has -- I believe they're saying she has multiple properties there. So they're saying, how is it not the best place to live if she lives there.

SMERCONISH: Yes, I don't know what to make of that. It seems like something a candidate running to be governor probably would be ill- advised to say anything that could be interpreted as being negative pertaining to the state that they wish to lead. If I were whispering in her ear, my gut reaction is I would have told her, this is not an area you want to play in.

BERMAN: Michael Smerconish, you can whisper in our ears any time. I welcome that.

KEILAR: Please.

BERMAN: So nice to see you this morning.

SMERCONISH: See you, guys. OK.

BERMAN: And be sure to join us tomorrow for election night in America. CNN's live coverage begins at 7:00 p.m. eastern time.

We do have exclusive CNN reporting this morning on why one Russian soldier says he risked it all to walk away from Putin's war.

KEILAR: And a manhunt underway for the gunman who shot and killed a man inside a New York subway train.

Plus --

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I told him to stay put on the cliff, and he kind of was able to get himself into the harness and help me out.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KEILAR: Just unbelievable. Crews in California rescuing a man who was stuck 500 feet down a 900-foot cliff.

[08:15:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BERMAN: We have a CNN exclusive: A Russian military office that reveals why he risked everything and resigned his commission in the middle of the war in Ukraine.

CNN's Suzanne Malveaux live in Lviv with this story -- Suzanne.

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: John, it is.

In a remarkable story of shame, confusion, guilt, fear, if you will, this junior officer -- Russian junior officer giving an exclusive behind the scenes of his experience. It was February 22nd, that massive build up along the border with Ukraine. He and his unit were a part of that.

He says on that day he was ordered to give over his cell phone, he lost communication with the outside world. He was also ordered to paint a "Z" the Z's on those military vehicles that later would come to symbolize Russia's invasion of Ukraine.

The next day, they went to Crimea, the Russian annexed territory, but it was February 24th. That day a shocker for him. That is when they were ordered to go into Ukraine.

He says we were not hammered with some kind of Ukrainian Nazis rhetoric. Many did not understand what this was all for, and what we were doing here. The officer then describes the drive into Kherson where they met up with the locals. They were intimidated by the locals.

He also said that it was day two or three that they came under heavy fire from Ukrainian forces and that that first week really, he said he was in a state of aftershock that he thought it was a miracle that he was actually alive.

[08:20:15]

MALVEAUX: Now, it was not until a couple of weeks into the war, he says this was the game changer that changed everything.

He got a hold of a radio receiver. That is when he was informed of what was really going on. He says, "That's how I learned that shops are closing in Russia and the economy is collapsing. I felt guilty about this. But I felt even more guilty because we came to Ukraine." He then concludes here, "In the end, I gathered my strength and went

to the Commander to write a letter of resignation. He told me there could be a criminal case. That rejection is beyond betrayal, but I stood my ground." At that point, he resigned. He is now home with his family. He says his future is uncertain, but he is just happy to be home -- John.

BERMAN: What a story and I think emblematic of the-disconnect between many of the junior officers and noncommissioned officers in the Russian military and the senior leadership, including Vladimir Putin.

Suzanne Malveaux, thank you.

KEILAR: New this morning, President Zelenskyy says up to 100 people maybe killed each day fighting in Eastern Ukraine where Russia has centered its military efforts here in recent weeks. A strategically important city in the east, Severodonetsk was attacked from multiple directions over the weekend.

The Russians were pushed back, according to President Zelenskyy's office, but Russians have been gaining more territory in the region.

And joining me now is retired General David Petraeus, former CIA Director as well, former head of the U.S. Central Command. Sir, thank you so much, as always, for being with us this morning.

I just wonder, how you see the war going right now.

GEN. DAVID PETRAEUS (RET), FORMER CIA DIRECTOR: Well, it's interesting, because the momentum seems to have shifted just a little bit back to the Russians, Brianna.

Of course, they finally took Mariupol, the final Russian defenders there ultimately surrendered and have been taken off, hopefully to be exchanged for Russian prisoners at some point down the road.

You have the counter offensive outside Kharkiv, the second largest city in Ukraine, and the Ukrainians were able to push the Russians all the way back to the border in some locations.

But now you see this developing situation in the east, the far east around Severodonetsk, and you have the Russians converging on that from several different directions. Very, very tough fighting there, and very clear that the Ukrainians are going to have to provide some reinforcements to that.

Now they have all the extra weapons, ammunition, supplies, and so forth provided by the U.S., the U.K., other NATO nations, but they're going to have to get some of those down to that location to make sure that it doesn't crumble and the Russians can't take more there than certainly the Ukrainians want to give up. But very, very tough fight going on.

KEILAR: Are you concerned, this could be a permanent shift in the Russians direction? Or how do you see it? PETRAEUS: I don't think permanent, but again, what's happening here

is of course Vladimir Putin is trying to see what more of the Russians can seize. At some point, I think that we're going to see the Russians and say, okay, in these areas, this is about as far as we're going to go, let's harden the frontlines.

And you'll see them then make it very, very difficult for the Ukrainians to take back territory and that is why it's so important that the Ukrainians regain the momentum here and start to shift it back in their favor, and then get the Russians moving, ideally, at some point, playing on the kinds of issues that have to be in the Russian ranks, as we heard from that Russian officer.

A lot of indiscipline in that kind of thing that at least anecdotally reported. If that could be fed, expanded, that would really help the Ukrainians. But right now, again, this is a seesaw battle. It's a bit of a fight of attrition, certainly, and the Ukrainians are going to have to work hard to get the momentum back in their favor.

KEILAR: On the issue of Taiwan, President Biden in Tokyo said that the U.S. will respond militarily in the event of a Chinese attack on Taiwan. He could not have been more clear, and I wonder if you think he made a mistake in being so unequivocal?

PETRAEUS: Well, I mean, it certainly has clarified the situation. It's also obviously a much more forward leaning than the strategic ambiguity that has characterized the policy for well over four decades.

Now, look, only time is going to tell how this eventually evolves, what the implications of this are. I suspect there will be those who in the wake of this will on the background say that that was actually, you know, a very wise move, a very skillful move, but certainly publicly, I think there is a lot of backpedaling going on, as you have heard.

Again, they've worked very, very hard to maintain this very studied strategic ambiguity. So it's not to upset the situation. But the situation is different.

And so again, we'll see in the weeks that lie ahead what this does to the relationship which the National Security Adviser has described as severe competition at this point.

[08:25:05]

KEILAR: Do you think this would change China's calculations on whether to invade Taiwan?

PETRAEUS: Well, I think there are a number of factors. You know, as always, there's no single factor in an equation that delivers a decision like that. And certainly they are studying very carefully what's going on in Ukraine.

And one would think that that -- there's a bit of a cautionary tale here. That the magnitude of such an operation. You know, big operations are really, really hard. Even if you have forces that seemingly are ready for that, as supposedly the Russian should have been given their many months of maneuvers where it appears that they were just out camping rather than doing serious military training.

Beyond that, of course, the idea of a nation at arms where an entire nation rises up to reject those who are invading. Again, that has to be a bit of a cautionary tale, I think for the decision makers in Beijing.

KEILAR: General, great to have you. Thank you so much for being with us this morning.

PETRAEUS: Pleasure. Thanks, Brianna.

KEILAR: Pfizer is releasing some new data this morning on a three- shot regimen of its COVID vaccine for children as young as six months old.

BERMAN: And billions with a B -- that's how much taxpayer dollars were lost to COVID Relief fraud according to the Labor Department. We have a "Reality Check" next.

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